Oct
28
2009
Why Make It Free?
Here’s a good rationale from Matt Perman on why Desiring God makes all of its materials available online for free (without requiring registration)–and why other ministries should consider the same.
Matt doesn’t mention this, but I remember Mark Driscoll making an observation a few years ago: there’s an inverse relationship between control and influence. DG’s influence has increased as it has made its resources free.
For more, see Matt’s essay, “Make It Free: Improving Online Effectiveness by Removing All Barriers to Accessing and Sharing Content.”
58 Comments
Hmm, what about the Christian music industry?
Nicely said Matt. I appreciate your heart.
Everybody else: Check out his site: http://www.whatsbestnext.com/
Matt Perman is now officially my hero. ;)
His point as the 3:20 mark made me appreciate Desiring God all the more:
“I just want to make it crystal clear: We’re not in this for what we can get. We’re not doing this to make money. We’re doing this because we want to be a blessing to the church and to the world. We want to see people grow in faith and increase in their joy in God. That’s it. That’s why we do this.”
LOVE IT. LOVE IT. LOVE IT.
May more online ministries follow in this God-honoring, Christ-exalting, gospel-centered aim of edifying the Church of Christ.
Couple things really rub me the wrong way about this video.
1. The Gospel is NOT free. It came as an extremely high cost. It’s only free to us because someone paid a price.
2. The driving force behind DG’s stance to make content “frictionless” and effective so it’s easier to spread. If we follow this line of reasoning, shouldn’t everything done under the auspice of spreading the Gospel be free?
From a post on DG:
Objection 6: Are you saying that charging is sinful?
No, I’m saying that it’s not a good idea for online media ministry resources. It undercuts effectiveness. This is not about right or wrong—do what you want. It’s about what will be most effective, what serves, and what is great.
The term “free” is relative. To us, the gospel is free. To God, it cost him dearly. To us, DG content is free, but it is costing others time, resources, and sacrifice.
For the life of me, I cannot even begin to imagine the Apostles charging money to hear them preach the message of the gospel, or to hear them expound the scriptures in light of Christ. Paul could have, but in wisdom he chose not to, for several self-sacrificial reasons.
I too am troubled by this video. First, the principles they expouse are not applied consistently. Two of the reasons they give for offering all their resources online for free is because they want to serve (and not be served) and because the gospel is free. Under that principle, all their conferences should be free (not everyone as a computer to watch it online for free later) including transportation and hotel and all of their books and tracts should be free including postage. Ridiculous? Yes. But so is the implication of what they say: that ministries that don’t offer their resources online for free are not serving. That’s what is implied in their statement even though they don’t say it or mean to say it. I’m greatly served by ministries that if they didn’t make the investment (like the Martin Lloyd-Jones Recording Trust) I would have never heard of any Lloyd-Jones sermons.
I don’t know why DGM couldn’t just say something like, “you know, the Lord has really blessed us to be able to give all our resources for free and we know that other ministries can’t do that but we’re just blessed to be able to do that.” End of discussion. I don’t know, I’m not trying to apply motives here, but this video just rings a little bit of arrogance. And just to read a couple of the comments cheering DGM and saying other ministries should follow, in my view has tainted what they’re doing.
Give thanks to God, absolutely. But don’t judge other ministries’ (even indirectly) motives. I’m disappointed in this video.
“Give thanks to God, absolutely. But don’t judge other ministries’ (even indirectly) motives. I’m disappointed in this video.”
Then perhaps you should apply the same standard to yourself in saying that it smacks of arrogance (and your qualification that you aren’t apply motives doesn’t count since you in essence are). Please at least be charitable to a ministry that is trying to do the same.
Just a quick comment to this post. DG has a whatever you can afford policy that allows anyone who cannot afford a book to have one. Conferences are the same. If you can’t afford to come then DG gladly will let you pay what you can or not pay at all. In fact I know that they have welcomed many international pastors over the years who cannot afford to attend yet have come and been blessed beyond measure.
As someone coming from India who cannot afford books at US retail rate, I really do relish the fact that DG makes all of its resources free. For that reason, I do think its influence has increased, not only in the US but also in India. Many people are aware of John Piper and Desiring God ministries in India.
Apart from Piper, there’s only John MacArthur from the larger-Reformed community whose books are available in India at very reasonable costs.
So, by making their resources available for free or at reasonable costs, these two men have certainly done a great favor for me (and Indian Christians at large). Other ministries can certainly consider working this way. However, I do agree with CR that this may not be an option for every ministry and DGM or any other ministry cannot become arrogant about the fact.
However, I must mention this: Today, India is being ruled by Pentecostal/Charismatics. Reformed Faith is virtually unheard of; reason – lack of resources. Its slowly getting a foothold because of the generosity of men like Piper and MacArthur. This may be something that the larger Reformed community can follow.
Dear Brother,
PLease look into Third Millennium Ministry, the work of Dr. Richard Pratt, John Frame and others. They are making seminary level educational materials —in a number of languages— for free on behalf of men such as yourself.
God bless.
It’s nice that they’re so financially profitable that they can afford to do this. It’s a gracious option.
Paul made it crystal-clear that his serving without support was a choice he made personally, not one required of the Lord’s servants.
He was equally clear about the general principle:
“Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.
18 For the Scripture says, ‘You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,’ and, ‘The laborer deserves his wages’”
(1 Timothy 5:17-18).
This video also strikes me as if it were Paul explaining why he serves without support from those he serves, and putting pressure on others to do the same. Which he didn’t.
CR,
I think you are pressing this principle beyond all rational boundaries. So DGM is inconsistent because they don’t pay for your gas and hotel stay when you attend a conference? Should they also buy the laptop and DSL connection for those who freely download sermons? As for the conferences, since they do provide the materials for free I don’t see your point. OK, so you may not have internet connection to download the lectures. Then simply call and they will send you a CD for free.
Also, you write: “But so is the implication of what they say: that ministries that don’t offer their resources online for free are not serving.” This isn’t implied, it is inferred by you. There is a huge difference. If Old Lady McPhee in my church says “Pastor, I’m going to serve Shut-In Susie by making her a pie” I cannot legitimately claim she is implying that I am not serving Susie by not making a pie. That is an inference I am making, caused by my own sense of guilt.
I find it interesting that a ministry that refuses to make a profit is now accused by you as being arrogant. I don’t think I’ve ever read a more blatantly uncharitable and nonsensical comment.
I do agree that not all ministries can necessarily do this–at least not to the extent that DGM does (for example, can a pastor who has authored only one book really afford to buy it and send it free to whoever asks?…since authors only receive a few of their own books for free, this is impossible). DGM can do this, in part, because John refuses to take royalties (which could have made him a very rich man). However, I have always thought it ridiculous that pastors charge for their sermon downloads (cover shipping and material costs with mailed cd’s I understand).
We have come a long way when we have to justify why we do not charge money to get the Gospel to people.
CR’s point isn’t that complicated, Josh. If DG’s insinuating that all ministries should give everything for free, then why don’t they?
You needn’t agree with CR, but I don’t see the need to misrepresent him as saying something hopelessly complex. He isn’t.
Dan,
It seems you are misrepresenting DGM. They are not insinuating that ministries should give away all resources for free. Quite the opposite actually. Read this quote from the article attached to the video:
“If you are going to have people talking about and emailing your content, you need to make sure that you remove all obstacles to this process. This means you shouldn’t charge for your online content–not for any of it. Charge for things you pack and ship to people, such as DVDs and physical books. But don’t charge for anything that is accessed online.”
I love the Perminator.
I agree that not all ministries can offer all content for free, but on the other hand, there is some content that should not be charged for. The best example is online sermon audio. I understand charging for physical media as there is a significant cost in the medium, but with online audio the cost is so insignificant, why would any church interested in spreading the gospel charge for it? Even for those churches that are not blessed with volunteers with high technical skills there are sites like sermonaudio.com that are very helpful and very affordable.
“First, the principles they expouse are not applied consistently. Two of the reasons they give for offering all their resources online for free is because they want to serve (and not be served) and because the gospel is free. Under that principle, all their conferences should be free (not everyone as a computer to watch it online for free later) including transportation and hotel and all of their books and tracts should be free including postage.”
As far as I know, DG does make all of their conference and books available for free, on a “what you can afford” basis. (http://www.desiringgod.org/AboutUs/FAQs/WYCAPolicy/)
They can’t give away plane tickets and hotel rooms — those aren’t theirs to give away.
Great discussion going on here. One other thing to add in regard to the issues CR raises is that Desiring God has a whatever-you-can-afford policy for the non-online resources that we sell. So we don’t want finances to be an obstacle to obtaining the resources in physical form, either.
In the video, I’m not intending to say that if a ministry does charge for content online, it is going against the gospel or not seeking to serve. I’m saying that posting everything for free is a great opportunity to do these things; but that doesn’t mean that it is the only way.
This opportunity is before us and is worth taking — and indeed, many great ministries are doing this. My aim here is to discuss some of the theological groundings for doing so.
Thanks for your response, Matt. I am aware of DGM’s “Whatever-you-can-afford policy.” But I think this policy still violates the first principle you set forth and that was avoiding friction. You went to some length to explain why you don’t charge 99 cents or 10 cents or even requiring people to register because it causes friction in getting resources out. The same applies to your whatever you can afford policy. Why not offer your books and your evangelistic tracts for free. That would cause less friction.
Again, it’s a great policy and I’m not suggesting you change it, but I think in DGM’s desire to justify why they’re giving away stuff for free (which by the way, DGM is not required to justify) there are inconsistencies.
Thank you for clarifying that just because ministries charge doesn’t mean they are seeking to be served or are going against the gospel. That point was not made in the video and in fact I think implied otherwise. You gave theological grounds for why you do what you do and theological grounds are suppose to be objective, not subjective. And it came out in your video that other ministries should be offering all of their resources for free online.
I have been served by people paying for resources and giving them to me or letting me borrow them. The gospel is advanced when people spend their own money to give and share resources and I’m sure DGM understands that.
Dan,
Your making my point for me. CR is the one making a simple principle horribly complex. I do find it outrageous that a ministry which freely gives away resources is being accused of arrogance.
If I am misrepresenting CR, then he will need to explain his use of the word “arrogant”.
You are misrepresenting him, Josh, and I don’t think your refusal to correct yourself obliges Carlo to do anything. In fact, I think it indicates that his time would be better spent doing something else.
Dan, so CR gets a free pass for being hard on Desiring God but others get hand-slapped for being hard on CR?
Dan,
I’m very surprised to see you defending CR on this. I felt his post was off-base, rude, and a bit bizarre. I think he was correctly confronted by several of the commentators here.
(Still, see my other comment where I essential come down in agreement with your position vis-a-vis Paul)
I think it is a wonderful blessing when a ministry has the financial support required to give away as much, for free, as it possibly can. However, other ministries, like Crossway or my particularly organization, Concordia Publishing House is not always in a position to do that.
I’m sure sanctified common sense and Christian charity can help folks understand and appreciate the different circumstances of different ministries.
I think it is a great thing to provide anything for free. And one doesn’t have to make everything free in order to make some things free.
With that said, some ministers do need to charge for what they make available online because (1) they need to recoup the costs for producing the product they are making available, or (2) because they are trying to make a living as a minister. Not everyone has the luxury of pastoring a church or running some ministry that supports them apart from their online ministry efforts. If someone’s ministerial efforts are online-focussed, they should be able to charge for online materials without being looked at as if they are doing something wrong.
First and foremost I want to thank God for DGM, He has blessed me deeply through their free online sermons and books. As a soldier in Iraq with pluralistic chaplains I did not have a weekly sermon or fellowship to rely on. I found DGM online because of their free gift and for sixteen months God blessed me through Pastor John’s preaching.
Matt was asked why DGM does what they do and his response is consistent with their mission statement. He didn’t say “shame on you” or “follow us” but shows a love for God and the means to offer free material so that some might be saved. It is all about finding the elect and the new birth. How are they to hear if no one is preaching? In an era where churches are look at as they just want your money, DGM is telling those people no we don’t, we want you. If this ruffles your tail feathers because you don’t do the same or your favorite ministry doesn’t, well it gives you something to pray about any way. Pray for DGM and pray for your ministry or your favorite one, if it further complexes you call DGM any time and they are open to talking with you.
Michael,
I don’t know that Matt was “asked” why DGM does what they do? Maybe they were, maybe they weren’t. When I read his article he didn’t seem to indicate he was asked. He was putting forth DGM’s vision and saying that others should do the same. No, he didn’t say “shame on you” for not doing the same, but he is saying (or commending) that other ministries should do the same. In fact, the title of his article has an imperative tone. “Make it Free.”
Again, I don’t believe that DGM needs to justify or explain why they give their resources free online.
CR,
Grab a Webster’s a learn the difference between explain and justify. Re-reading your initial comment (several times) still has me wondering what your real ‘bone’ is.
Your opinion has been noted. But I don’t think you need to justify or explain why you don’t think they should justify or explain why they give their resources free online.
CR,
Here is the title: Why Does Desiring God Offer Everything Online for Free? To me that is a question and it is the question that Matt spends the better part of six minutes expounding on. Its all about the Gospel. Do we exist for sinners to repent or for ourselves? Christ-centered thinking leads us to see what Matt is saying and not looking for implications in what he is not saying.
Michael,
I’m looking at the totality of the post. Yes, the video does start with the title as you stated, but notice on the top left it states: Make it Free. I also read Matt’s essay which JT linked. Titled, “Make It Free…”
So, I’m not simply looking at what was implied in the video but what was written in his essay. I’m not saying your doing this, but some people keep saying that they listened to the video over and over and over again. Great. I said on more than one occasion, that I also looked at Matt’s essay, which JT said, if you want to know more, read Matt’s essay. Which I did.
Anyway, I won’t restate my arguments but I just wanted to highlight, again, that I looked at more than just the video. So, in totality, Matt wasn’t just really dealing with why DGM does it, but why others should do it.
In fact, and I say this respectfully, but accurately, Matt in his essay said that if you are Christian media ministry, you should post all of your content, online, for free. Then he gave his basis (in his essay), which I was somewhat troubled with. Then Matt commented and clarified that he wasn’t intending to say that if a ministry does charge for content online, it is going against the gospel or not seeking to serve. I appreciated this clarification because in his video as an explanation (one of them) of why DGM offers its content online for free, he said, because DGM wants to serve and not be served. He also gave as one of reasons because the gospel is free. Again, I appreciated Matt’s clarification in his comment assuring me that just because a Christian media ministry charges for their content online, they are not going against the gospel.
Again, as I stated, previously, I am somewhat satisfied with his response. It’s a little confusing because he stipulates that if you’re a Christian media ministry then you should offer your content online for free and then goes into a pretty comprehensive explanation of why they should and then later comments (which I appreciate) then no, if you’re a Christian media ministry, just because you charge doesn’t mean you don’t want to serve or are going against the gospel. Still kinda scratching my head just a little, but, I’m letting bygones be bygones.
Anyway, I don’t want to regurgitate my arguments, so I’ll leave the friction argument alone because I explained it pretty well. But when I read your comment, I thought it important to comment on it. I’ll give you the last word.
I listened to the video 3 times and I still do not understand how it might be taken as arrogant. I could totally be missing something, but I did not him call other ministries to make their resources free online. I did hear him encourage all of us to consider how we can better display the gospel in our particular context.
He also went out of his way at the end to say that DG doesn’t think they have it all figured out. Every day they are asking the question of how they can better fulfill their mission.
I just don’t understand how that can be taken as arrogant or as that they are indirectly expecting other online ministries to adopt their strategy.
On a positive note, I too, and eternally grateful for the abundance of resources they provide, not just for free, but with little friction. many people in my church have had access to great sermons and lessons that they would otherwise not been exposed to.
The “Ask Pastor John” feature is by far my favorite. To have answers to some of the more difficult questions in our lives by someone as wise as John is invaluable.
Many thanks to DG.
I had to chuckle at the very last frame of this video. After all that was said about removing friction to spread the message, I saw this:
© 2009 Desiring God
All Rights Reserved
When the rubber meets the road, this is a threat: “If you spread the content of this video, our lawyers will ask Barack Obama to send his thugs to your door and forcibly take you away to a federal prision where you will be locked up with a psychopath who will inflict unspeakable violence on you for the next couple of years.”
Talk about “friction!” :-)
Kevin,
DGM does this to protect themselves legally from a world which has a hatred towards God. Let’s say a video by an Anti-Evangelical organization uses segments from this video out of context – it could totally misrepresent and hurt DGM dramatically. DGM does have a policy that you can distribute and hand out their materials as long as you do not alter the content in any way. This follows the same methodology of sacred scripture – God gave us his word, however, as it strictly states – it must not be altered (or literally – added to).
Wow. I’m sort of shocked at the reaction to this video. I found his presentation compelling and wonderful. I have pastored two small churches who have pretty small budgets comparatively, and we were able to post all the sermons for free and give away CD’s for free to the tens of people who listened to me preach.
I can’t imagine a single church that couldn’t afford to post things online for free.
Agreed. File hosting is becoming more and more cheap by the day, setting up a website is so easy even kids (like myself) are setting them up and letting them run. The ease with which one can capture good-quality audio and upload it to the Web is practically screaming “Give me away!!!”. With books, pricing is most definitely a consideration, but with MP3s? You have GOT to be kidding me…
I’m also baffled why people are up in arms about this video. Are they really complaining that a ministry which gives away tons of free stuff is “inconsistent” because they don’t give away even more free stuff?
Tough crowd.
[...] across denominational lines and give away all their content for free will be more common (see also Desiring God Ministries). This will happen as technology is utilized to make edifying data more and more available [...]
Dan,
Help me see the misrepresentation. I see CR as saying the following:
1. DGM is urging other ministries to offer their resources for free.
2. DGM doesn’t do this, since they don’t provide free airfare and hotel stays for conferences, since they charge for conferences, and since they charge for books and postage.
3. Therefore, DGM is inconsistent and arrogant.
If there is a misrepresentation there, please point it out. All of that comes directly from his initial post.
I would contend:
A. The hotel/airline accusation is absurd.
B. DGM does provide ALL resources for free. I myself have received free books from them in the past with the “whatever you can afford policy”.
C. The charge of inconsistency doesn’t measure up, and the charge of arrogance is frankly silly.
Josh,
Perhaps rather than stating what you see me as saying you should state what I say. I agree that asking DGM paying for hotel and transportation is absurd – in fact, if you read my comment, I said it is ridiculous. That was one of my points. The problem with Matt’s first point was that he said that charging for online resources (whether it’s 99 cents or 10 cents) causes friction. But by that same argument, so does charging for conferences (okay, let’s leave out hotel and transportation). So, does charging for books even their whatever you can afford policy. If there is friction for paying 99 cents or 10 cents for an online resource. Why wouldn’t there be friction for paying whatever you can afford for a book. Well, there would be using Matt’s argument. It clearly is an inconsistent argument. I’m sorry you can’t see that.
As far as the arrogance charge, again, read what I said, Josh. I didn’t apply any motives to anyone but as Caleb pointed out, yes, I thought it came out as arrogant – that’s what is usually meant by when you say something “rings…” Which is what I said.
JT in his heading of the post said that other ministries should consider this. Matt said (especially if you read the linked article) said other ministries should make online resources free. I mean, you can’t be more clearer, he says, “Make it Free.”
Anyway, Matt’s sort of address my issue in his response. He clarified some things that were not in his video or written article. I think if he had said things in his response in this thread in his video that he said in the video or in the written article it would be fine. There is a different message in his video and article. Be that as it may, I’m sorry you have some issues with my characterization of what I saw in the video and article. I stand by them. I’ll give you the last word.
CR,
You seem to want me to handle your words with accuracy and care, but you are not offering that same courtesy to the DGM video. Your not dealing with what they said, but only what you believe is “implied”. If I must only deal with what you exactly say, so must you with DGM. Your demanding the very treatment you seem to refuse to offer. If you believe it is fair to tease out implications in the video, is it not also fair for me to do so with your comments?
DGM is saying that they want to reduce friction for online resources. A book, which comes under the ‘whatever you can afford policy’ is not an online resource. Its a book. A conference is not an online resource. Its a conference. In fact, you can get most if not all of Piper’s books for free online in PDF format (and as an online resource, there free!!!). Therefore, how is that inconsistent? Also, did they say they wanted to completely eradicate friction, or did they simply say they wanted to reduce it? Again, deal with what they say–not what you infer.
As for the hotel and airline fees, the issue there is that you specifically used those as examples of demonstrating DGM’s supposed inconsistency—-which is what I called absurd.
As a follow up, I just listened to the video again. In it he clearly refers to online resources. Nothing else. So charging them with inconsistency with not charging for “offline” resources is absurd.
Let me give you an illustration. Let’s say the local bookstore says “all books marked with a red dot are 50% off”. You try to purchase a book without a red dot and, when not given the discount, then accuse the bookstore of inconsistency. Sort of absurd, eh?
I don’t really see a difference between “sounds arrogant to me” and “I think they are being arrogant”. It was wrong of you to have made that accusation. I don’t see the inconsistency that you are struggling to demonstrate, but I’ll leave you to your own opinion. But, the arrogant comment was a bit out of line. You seem to take great offense at having your opinion called absurd, but have no problem throwing around your own verbal bombs.
With that said, I would tend to agree with Dan Philips. I think in the excitement of what their doing they were advocating a certain approach when they would have been better off taking Paul’s approach of just describing what they do without a call for others to do the same. It’s probably a guilt complex that causes us to overreact (or the convicting of the Spirit?), but still Paul’s model would have been wiser.
Dan, so CR is a saint for misrepresenting DGM’s video and Josh is a villain for misrepresenting CR? Let’s be honest here. CR is pushing his argument way too far (hotel fees and airline tickets? Come on!).
But Josh, I’m not sure if CR is actually saying DGM is arrogant, only that it came across to him as a bit arrogant. I agree it probably wasn’t the best word choice, but he may not be intending to accuse.
No, because he didn’t; and yes, because he did, respectively. See above.
Dan, so you say. After having read through all the posts again I cannot find where Josh misrepresented him, but I can easily see where CR misrepresented the Desiring God video. In fact, Josh seemed to humbly ask for clarification but you replied almost with a “your not worth responding to” response.
When you resort to the “nuh-uh” line of argument it doesn’t help your case any. This is rising to a level of almost sinful behavior on you and CR’s part.
I just want to make a simple point: it is not free. They have costs that somebody is paying, e.g. their landlord; volunteers; donors–see http://www.desiringgod.org/AboutUs/SupportDg/AnnualReports/2007/ –and indeed, John Piper himself for not receiving royalties.
That’s a great thing, and very generous of the people paying those costs. But I don’t think it makes it a better model than other resource ministries that charge those who can afford to pay and subsidize those who can’t. Both seem to be seeking to implement 1 Cor 9 kind of principles. So I neither criticize DG for explaining why they do it, nor venerate them for it. I just praise God whenever he puts it in people’s hearts to be generous.
Yeah, the only thing Ian is that DGM didn’t stop with explaining why they do it but if you read the linked article they say why others should do it. And it’s definitely implied in the video. I mean, respectfully, you can’t be more dogmatic than what Matt said in his article that if you’re a Christian media ministry, then you should post all of your content online for free then he goes on to explain the basis why Christian media should do so.
Again, I think it’s great that DGM offers their resources for free online. But suggesting that all other Christian media ministries should do so and reading his argument for doing so and seeing inconsistencies, I thought it was relevant to speak up about it.
CR,
They are indeed urging other ministries to offer online media resources for free. That is true. But they are NOT urging other ministries to offer ALL resources for free (printed materials, curriculum, etc). I do not think you have truly grasped what was said in that video and you are grossly misrepresenting their statements. I am disappointed with your tone.
Welcome to my world (as I know you already know), CR.
You get someone like Josh who insists on misreading you, and refuses simply to deal with what you actually said, preferring simply to repeat and defend his mischaracterization. Too often, no amount of reiteration or correction will persuade such a one to retrace his steps to where he went wrong.
Eventually you just have to thank God that fair readers can see the whole exchange, accept that unfair readers can’t be won anyway, and leave it there.
Dan,
What is your beef with Josh? Many others have also criticized CR. I’ve yet to see how he has misread or misinterpreted CR, you certainly haven’t pointed it out. In fact, I think he has pointed out quite clearly the incoherence of CR’s complaint.
I have seen, however, how CR has repeatedly misinterpreted DGM. Your defense of his horribly rude behavior, failed logic, and bizarre conduct is a bit alarming. This repeated of inconsistency, which you and CR seem to throw around regardless of what DGM actually said–with no attempt to actually deal with their actual statements, is simply appalling.
Hey Dan,
Sorry if I’m causing irritation. That’s not my intent brother. I certainly do not want to be guilty of misrepresenting CR. If I’ve got his argument wrong, I am open to your wisdom on this issue. I have re-read his posts again, I can I do come to the same conclusions. But you seem to know him better, and can perhaps offer a more nuanced perspective.
So I am very open to either you or CR explaining a bit more, or correcting me where I’ve gone off base. But I hope that also means you both will have the same willingness to see where you may be potentially off base in your own assessment of the DGM video. Regardless, I’m not trying to cause offense–but just to listen and exchange ideas.
Love you guys!
I love you to, brother. We’ll have to agree to disagree. As I stated, I’m somewhat satisfied with Matt’s response and clarification. Have a good weekend.
The only thing that is worse than Al Gore’s fuzzy math is CR’s fuzzy logic. For the life of me I can’t even begin to see where the inconsistency is here, nor do I see even a hint of arrogance in the DGM video. I’m glad so many of the comments have came out against CR’s very strange vitriol.
Sounds like someone had a bad day, or has an excessive guilt complex. It is so sad when a ministry is attacked for being excited about giving away free stuff and encouraging other ministries to do the same.
Dan,
You said: “You get someone like Josh who insists on misreading you, and refuses simply to deal with what you actually said, preferring simply to repeat and defend his mischaracterization. Too often, no amount of reiteration or correction will persuade such a one to retrace his steps to where he went wrong.”
Sounds exactly like what you and CR having been doing to DGM, Josh Gelatt, and anyone else who disagrees with you. You refuse to actually deal with any criticisms of your arguments, just endlessly repeat the same mischaracterizations. I think your being very mean spirited in your personal attacks and do not find CR’s attack on DGM or your attack on another brother in Christ to be anything that resembles the fruit of the Spirit.
Wow. This has certainly generated a lot of heat—-and it seems I’ve got enough of attackers and defenders to start a civil war in some Central American country.
Maybe we should all bring this discussion to an end, go over to the Desiring God website, and download a bunch of free stuff! LOL
As one who has been involved in the inner workings (worked in the marketing department) of one of the country’s biggest Christian ministries (one which, by the way, has a ‘whatever you can afford’ policy), I have say that the industry is simply disgusting. Sex sells and god is sexy.
On the other hand, DGM appears to be the real thing. I don’t see massive marketing campaigns and calls to donate. Because of the blessing they have been to me and my family, I’ve gone out of my way to contribute at times. I’m now on their ‘donor list’ and they know that I’m a prime candidate for sending more money. But, unlike the organization that I was once with, which sends email blasts several times a week and direct mail pieces several times a month, I get very little from Desiring God. They are respectful and not pushy.
My only advice to them would be this. Stop growing. Don’t become a monster that needs to be fed. Logic gets really fuzzy and perverse when you have to come up with ways to end the year in the black. God is blessing you now for a season, but seasons come and seasons go. This too shall pass. Just pour yourselves out as much as you can and you may just avoid the temptation to ‘wax fat and kick.’