Comments on: What Makes You Shout?

By: Chris Davis

Chris Davis — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 01:47:12 +0000

Mr. Cline,
While I must yield to you the point that the origins of such music are most definitely rooted in anger, probably even sinful anger. I must, however, decline to reach the same conclusion you do. You argue that culture is man created, and I will agree with you on that. I will also agree that there are cultures that are better than others. However that being said having the “best culture” (whatever that may be, I tend to think that it is one completely devoted to Christ) still means that there are other cultures that must be reached, and music is a very real way to reach people. Paul is the one who gives us this idea in 1 Cor. 9. I can understand that people who are unfamiliar with this type of music, it may all sound the same, that being very angry. While those who are familiar with this particular genre of music will say completely otherwise. Sure there are some bands that are very angry, even Christian bands that are very angry. I say that not all anger is bad, for example anger at injustice, hiding of the truth by governments, and sin in general. Now, there is a significant difference, obviously, from being angry at things that should not be, and just being angry because you were “mistreated”. I believe that many Christian bands are angry at the correct things, and that they are using their music to reach people that need to be reached, and they seem to be the only ones that are willing to meet them in their culture and with the Gospel of Christ. Furthermore, your idea God has an absolute aesthetic for music, and thus there is a “best” kind seems to me be far fetched. My problem with this arises from your lack of Biblical support for what that “best” kind of music, or art in general for that mater, is. Psalms did not come with sheet music. I must agree with Mr. Massey that it is content that makes something “better” or “best”, not genre.

By: Joe

Joe — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 00:01:10 +0000

“If anyone is worthy of exuberant praise, it is the Lord.”
You’ve got me there!

By: Scott Cline

Scott Cline — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 04:29:30 +0000

I’m sorry, I did not communicate as clearly as I could have. I moved between specifics and generalities in unhelpful ways.

Let me begin by saying that I have different presuppositions than you do, regarding the potential morality/immorality of music itself, apart from lyrical content. My worldview leads me to believe this:
God’s original design in the world was perfect. Any twisting of that design is imperfect: immoral. All spheres of life can be and have been twisted.
God created music. It is reasonable to think that with His creation of music came an absolute aesthetic. If music is the only art-form which has no intrinsic meaning, no ability to communicate in and of itself, no aesthetic boundaries… then it is certainly alone as such!

I did not mean to claim that I know this aesthetic, nor even that it can be known.
I did mean to claim that the existence of such an aesthetic is likely, and that it is at least possible that some of our musical features violate this aesthetic.

I did not mean to claim that all metal and hardcore artists are angry when they write and perform their music.
I did mean to claim that it is at least possible that the style they use communicates anger–that those who fashioned the style did so in anger and with intentionality and possibly with the assumption that music has meaning–whether or not a sincere Christian artist realizes that.

I do not believe that I idolize a genre.
I do believe that man, in God’s sovereignty, creates culture. I believe that cultures are embodiments of worldviews. Therefore, I believe that it is at least theoretically possible for one culture to be superior to another. I also believe that a culture rooted in the reformation stands a better chance of bearing God’s image than a culture which is not.

You’re correct, my opinion is subjective. This does not bother me. I have already alluded to my presupposition about the intrinsic meaning of things; I also presuppose that Word-saturated, Spirit-sensitized minds are capable of subjective judgment calls regarding such meanings.
I do not wish to be trapped by post-Enlightenment thought which divorces the immanent from the transcendent, and the objective from the subjective.

In any case, I’m very, very glad that Ps. 66:1 was brought to our attention! The psalmist, overflowing with delight in God, shouts; and, as the consummation of his delight, he directs our gaze to this same God and calls on us share this joy with him. Many congregations (including my own) should answer him much more exuberantly than they do!

By: David Massey

David Massey — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 03:11:04 +0000

Mr. Cline – Do you sincerely believe that the shouting the psalmist is calling us to is nothing at all like that of Christian metal and hardcore? I think the onus is on you rather to demonstrate exactly what “type” of shout the psalmist is referring to.

I will say this, you’re right – there is no arena in which God is without opinions. But, what makes you so sure that your opinion (which is quite narrow and extremely subjective) is the same as God’s?

There is indeed a difference between shouting for joy and shouting in anger. But how do you know beyond reasonable doubt that Christian bands who shout are shouting in anger? That’s a sweeping generalization, sir.

You’ve posed the question: “Is music the only art-form which can never be made immoral?” The implication in that question seems to be that metal/hardcore ‘sounds’ immoral to the ‘average’ listener so therefore it is immoral. I need to point out that immorality in music is based on CONTENT – not on style or sound. It appears that you have committed a form of genre idolatry here. God, not you, dictates what is musically acceptable and what is not.

Check your feet: the hermeneutical ground you’re standing on is shaky at best.

By: Joe

Joe — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 00:13:32 +0000

In poetry? I think even applying the word ‘command’ is a stretch. A directive and a command have differing degrees of authority. “Everybody come on now, clap you hands.” would be typical today. If someone said, ‘She just commanded you to clap your hands,” I would find the word choice odd at best. Besides, the Psalms are songs and rhetorical by nature. Explicating ‘commands’ from them just seems stretch it. I think the idea is very good, but do we want to go on record saying we are all commanded to shout unto the Lord? It reminds me of people who say the Proverb about ‘Raise up a child’ is an iron clad promise when it is a Proverb. The Lord may impress it upn a soul as a promise, but in context it cannot be so universally applied. That’s my take. If we believe in the importance of words, then I think Scott’s observation is best.

By: JMH

JMH — Sun, 15 Nov 2009 01:44:55 +0000

So many times, in fact, that you feel compelled to respond to it even when it’s not offered.

By: Wyeth Duncan

Wyeth Duncan — Sun, 15 Nov 2009 01:05:52 +0000

Thank you for this post. If anyone is worthy of exuberant praise, it is the Lord.

By: Scott Cline

Scott Cline — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 14:57:29 +0000

If I remember correctly, Lewis, in “Reflections on the Psalms,” analogously explains such exclamations in terms of a young man who so overflows with delight in a young lady that he spontaneously calls the attention of others to her, because praise is delight’s appointed consummation.

I appreciate why one might prefer “command” in this case, and why another might prefer “commend.” I’m not sure that either word fully captures what’s going on here.

By: Justin Taylor

Justin Taylor — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 06:05:08 +0000

I’m with Mike. Understanding imperatives as commands is simply definitional, not rhetorical!

By: Mike Riccardi

Mike Riccardi — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 06:02:44 +0000

Joe,

How do you interpret the imperative “Shout for joy” in Psalm 66:1 if not as a command?

By: Joe

Joe — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 05:11:23 +0000

Justin:

“Shouting” is *commanded* in scripture? I think you are engaging in a bit of rhetorical overkill there. Whichis why some find Evangelicals and Reformed types so exhausting. How about “shouting is commended” in Scripture?

By: Scott Cline

Scott Cline — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:52:33 +0000

Do you sincerely believe that the shouting which the psalmist calls us to is of the same kind that is distinctive of metal and hardcore?

We live in a universe in which everything has intrinsic meaning. Man never has an ammoral thought, speaks with an ammoral spirit, or acts in an ammoral way. There is no arena in which God is without opinions.

You know full well that there is a difference between shouting for joy and shouting in anger; yet, you speak as though shouting is shouting is shouting.

Ever since the Enlightenment, Christians have been quick to reject any judgments rooted in less-than-objective categories. Spirit-filled, Word-saturated, subjective discernment is ridiculed.

Evangelicalism has harbored this peculiar attitude regarding the meaninglessness of musical expression. This is a difficult philosophical position to defend! Did God create the universe with no aesthetic boundaries? Is music the only art-form which can never be made immoral? Is culture not the embodiment of a worldview, and does its art not reflect it?

The average non-Christian could quickly delineate for you the difference between those beats which are angry and those which aren’t.

In any case, whether or not you agree with much of the above, we must say–at the very least–that the onus is on you to defend your assertion that the shouting called for in the psalms is indistinguishable from the shouting of metal and hardcore.

By: John Thomson

John Thomson — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:47:04 +0000

Even God shouts.

Psa 60:8 Moab is my washbasin; upon Edom I cast my shoe; over Philistia I shout in triumph.”

Psa 47:5 God has gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet.

Shouts seem generally to be an OT way of expressing a victory cry.

By: Looselycult

Looselycult — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:48:57 +0000

Thanks Justin for that response. I know I seemed suspicious, I just really get tired of the spoken or unspoken view that many in evangelical and some reformed circles have, that a good preacher or preaching is judged by how emotional or how much they shout during their sermons regardless if the content is good or not. However if the one preaching doesn’t do any of those things but still has a tremendous amount of content in their sermon they are still judged as being an inferior preacher and would be better suited to teach in a college or seminary. I know this might seem like a ludicrous debate but I have head it many times.

By: David Massey

David Massey — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:45:14 +0000

Why (after reading passages like this) are many evangelicals so pessimistic towards Christian music that has shouting as the primary style of vocals? Christian metal and hardcore is making enormous impacts in the Kingdom right now (and has been for some time). Unfortunately, conservatives have their negative predispositions against any form of music that might sound “like the devil”, as if they’ve actually heard Satan’s voice.

It’s time for people to realize that bands like August Burns Red, Becoming The Archetype, and For Today are writing amazing Spirit-filled songs that are biblically rooted and Christ exalting.

By: donsands

donsands — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:31:00 +0000

AMEN!!!! AMEN!!!!

Actually I don’t shout, well, at Raven’s games I can be heard two blocks over when they score a touchdown, or a field goal, or Flacco throws and interception, or …

I remember when my last pastor was preaching a sermon on Psalm 150 I think, where it says to make a loud noise, and play the cymbals loud, and he told the drummer to hit those cymbals loudly for the Lord.

I thought that’s good, but some times we need to hit the cymbals softly for the Lord too.

I do believe we need to shout about our joy of being forgiven all our sin, and for having a loving Father in heaven who gave His Beloved holy Son for sinners like us. That’s worth shouting from the hilltops about.

Good post.

By: Aaron

Aaron — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:30:21 +0000

Thanks for passing this on, Justin. Great thought.

By: Fred Sanders

Fred Sanders — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:27:41 +0000

For a systematic theology of shouting, see George Henry’s Shouting: Genuine and Spurious. http://tinyurl.com/y877ye6

Full title: Shouting, Genuine and Spurious, In all ages of the Church from the birth of Creation when the Sons of God shouted for joy until the shout of the Archangel. With numerous extracts from the Old and New Testament and from the works of Wesley, Evans, Edwards, Abbott, Cartwright, and Finley. GIVING A HISTORY OF THE OUTWARD DEMONSTRATIONS OF THE SPIRIT SUCH AS LAUGHING SCREAMING SHOUTING LEAPING JERKING FALLING UNDER THE POWER ETC With extensive comments numerous anecdotes and Illustrations.

A strangely neglected work, I’m sure you will AGREE!!!

By: Justin Childers

Justin Childers — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 19:22:50 +0000

This post was born out of conviction. I don’t shout in joy for the glory of God. I am far too reserved in my affections.

By: Justin Taylor

Justin Taylor — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:41:49 +0000

Wow–talk about the hermeneutics of suspicion!

By: Looselycult

Looselycult — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 18:40:08 +0000

I hope this isn’t a veiled legalistic attempt to say that only “true” or “real ” preachers shout when they preach, and those that don’t are really just “teaching” and not “preaching”. Or their just a bunch of milk toast sissy men who like Rob Bell. Give me a break.