But, on the flip-side, there is mutual edification. Numerous kinds of meetings. All-member ministry, and no little people. Ancient church history, prior to Constantine, provides many good examples. This was before the church caved into the Roman style of “worship” in which a trained rhetorician lead the show, and everything came to depend upon him.

With the full knowledge that I might get some digital stones thrown at me for suggesting this, an author who is doing some good work on this stuff is Frank Viola. He is iconoclastic in his first book, Pagan Christianity, but in the books following that one he begins to explain the path I am hinting at.

Any way, take care. I am visiting your website later.

in Christ,
c

It’s a similar feeling that I get when I read business handbooks and “zen marketing” blogs…I read it, and I think “this all makes sense! Why didn’t I think of doing it that way?” And I get all stoked and resolve to implement these new procedures, and it lasts about 5 minutes before things break down somehow. I’ve heard motivational speakers talk about all you need for success, and they don’t really mention is that the thing that is most likely going to make you successful is idolising success. You’ve got to want it more than *anything*.

So success in running a church can be our idol instead of glorifying God. I think it’s even possible to make “preaching against idols” into your own little success idol. Are you perhaps hinting that dedicating a book to church management structure can send out a message that management is the thing which is most important? It perhaps makes an inference that we are not dependent completely on God after all (and don’t our unregenerate hearts love to hear *that* kind of news?)

I really don’t want to be ungracious to the authors of this book in discussing this idea, though. I’m just interested to hear your responses to my thoughts.

Smart people are just as sinful as simple people. The problem is, when you’re smart, it’s much easier to cover your idolatry in sophisticated ways, and it takes a lot longer to explain to a smart person how they might be wrong. But at the root of it, we’re all inclined to go wrong for the same reasons, and the solution is the same: we depend entirely on God to rescue us from our waywardness!

Just some random thoughts, I hope I’ve not gone too off-topic with this one!

I don’t want to get into a heated discussion or the minutia of the details in this blog. My initial statements were about the book and the outline. There is room for much more discussion, but please don’t take from what I have said that I am against leadership or structure of any kind. I am simply suggesting that the models that have dominated for 700 hundred years need to be reconsidered.

The Lord’s blessings,
Chris

“Hierarchies are not the Lord’s way.”

Really? You could have fooled me.

Let’s see.. for starters.

God -> Moses -> Lieutenants -> Israel
God -> Joshua -> Lieutenants? -> Israel

[other OT examples left out for brevity]

Christ -> The close 3 -> The rest of the 12 -> The 72 -> the masses
Apostles -> Church Elders and Deacons -> Local Church

Grant it, there isn’t a clear “one guy calling the shots” in the Apostles line, but if there wasn’t there was at least a guy who got the ball rolling and kept things moving (I suspect that was Peter but only by personality.) Otherwise you end up with chaos.

The model currently on offer, with the central figure up front, “leading” the people is still the dominant feature of these suggestions. He is the drive engine of the whole affair. Christ, mediated through him as he leads, is implied, even if not intended.

I am a presbyterian in my background, but am leaning towards what Steve Schlissel has called an “organic presbyterianism” in which elders really are old-men, not officers. The elderly men are leaders by age and wisdom, and their “appointment” is one of recognition, not democratic election.

This represents the book, which argues explicitly against a CEO model.

JT

What is happening within many branches of Christendom is the realization that the system is not working, and so new models are being attempted, or at least suggested. But, what they fail to really recognize is that the system itself, in which they are attempting to function, is the problem. The system militates against what they are hoping will happen.

No I have not read the book. But if you check out my Librarything page you will see what I have read and my ecclesiastical background. http://www.xristopher.com

I hate to sound smug, but there is not anything “new” that can be said. Rather, we need to dig deeper into the NT and find our way back to the Lord’s Way. Hierarchies are not the Lord’s way.

In fact the audio from the conference can be found at this link:
http://peoplegrowth.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=74&Itemid=89

I don’t mean to be cynical, although I will be skeptical. The model is still a business one, with a group of ceo’s at the top, a hierarchy of “leaders” and “laity” underneath. Keeping an eye out for the “talent”, etc. “Recruit” the next generation.

If our model really is the NT, then this is still a far cry from real church life. Just more theatre and spectacle, more “man up front” stuff. Not “one anothering” or mutual edification, but rather more of the same with new terms.

Also, the regular meetings of the church is not about training, it is about knowing Christ, of relishing His presence.

z