Thanks for these thoughts. You have certainly spelled out things a bit more than the interaction I recently had on another blog.

**** It is unclear what statement you refer to. I assume it is this: “It does seem strange to me that you think God wants to be considered responsible for our sin” I said this, because in response to me saying this: “he [God] knows many things will happen because they will happen, and he would prefer that they not happen, though he allows them to happen because he has sovereignly decided to grant man free will”, you said, “I don’t see anywhere in scripture that completely allows what you are saying. You are letting God off the hook where He does not want to be let off.”

It seems like you were saying I am letting God off the hook for our actions that go against his will (i.e., our sin). How else was I to take your comments in this context?

Also, please don’t post a list of proof texts for your positions, because that tends to make for unproductive discussion. It is one thing to discuss Scripture. That is a good and healthy thing. But if one simply posts a list of quoted passages begging the question that they support one’s view, it can be counterproductive. For example, I could simply counter with a list of proof texts for my position. And what will be accomplished? Here is a great little explanation of this problem, which the author labels “The Machine Gun Hermeneutic”: http://evangelicalarminians.org/node/161.

God bless.

My friend, when did I specifically say that? If you can show me the error in my writing then I will respond to this specifically. Otherwise I’d rather you not misquote me Thank you.

I asked for scripture so that the conversation could be more production. Not that I don’t care what you think, but if I am to learn something, it’s usually the bible that does the trick. I never assume that I know enough to never be corrected. I will post my scripts up, unfortunately, i dont go on the computer often.

My original point was this. To say God merely knows may trump that he is the creator of all things. It is to my belief that He decrees everything that comes to pass, and nothing that happens is a surprise to him.

To say that He decrees everything and there is still choice is true and false. True to me, in that we are finite and he is not. So for us, it is a choice, because we cannot know God’s ways. However, to say that our will is free…somehow out of hold from Him…beggs the question of what authority we hold to our own will, seein that we did not create ourselves, or rather, if God could pull us out of his will…can that even be possible? I’m rambling…i know.

The blog post I linked you to actually deals with Adam’s observations at the top of the page.

Warmest regards,

Ron

I agree with the way in which the problem is defined and all your conclusions. I think, however, that a thinking Molinist would have is way with what you wrote. We must *argue* why a metaphysically free choice defies an eternal truth value. It’s not enough to *assert* that God can’t know a LFW choice in advance.

Please allow me to link you to a post of mine from a while back that explains what I am getting at.

http://reformedapologist.blogspot.com/2007/12/molinists-and-calvinists-agree-in.html

Pax,

Ron

**** Well, you have now changed the essence of what you said. I am not contending that there is any other root for anything existing besides God. So I wouldn’t attempt to give you Scripture to the contrary. But God being the creator of the universe does not mean that he irresistibly causes all that happens. All beings owe their existence to God. But that does not in the least imply thats he then irresistibly predetermines every act they do.

However, I suspect that if we were to delve deeper into what each means, there is probably a fundamental disagreement that we could address with Scripture.

mzsoulll said: “2. As for your last statement, I don’t see anywhere in scripture that completely allows what you are saying. You are letting God off the hook where He does not want to be let off. I will provide all the scriptures I have pertaining to this truth when I get the chance.”

**** I see many places in Scripture that not only allow for what I am saying, but demand it, like the many reference to freewill, the many references to human choice, and the fact that there are many things that go against God’s will for starters. Kangaroodort linked to a great article on the reality of genuine free will in Scripture. Here is the link again: http://evangelicalarminians.org/Henshaw-Determinism-Free-Will-The-Reality-of-Choice-and-the-Testimony-of-Scripture. It does seem strange to me that you think God wants to be considered responsible for our sin when Scripture makes it clear that he is too pure to even look upon evil and would never tempt anyone to sin (he would never tempt anyone to sin, but he would irresitibly cause each person to sin every sin he or she ever commits?). Do you deny that many things go against God’s will?

All of that is true, but we do not debate these issues just for the sake of mindless speculation. If free will is totally denied that would seem to nonsense of much of Scripture, and I am sure you do not want to make nonsense of Scripture, do you? Also, if free will is totally denied, it can easily lead to the logical implication that God is the author and cause of every evil thought, choice and action of his creatures. That may not trouble you much, but it does trouble me.

God Bless,
Ben

I’m glad you academic types enjoy discussing this, but for me, it doesn’t matter much. I know that I once was blind, but now I see and whether I choose waffles, french toast, Cheerios, or bacon and eggs, God will love me indefinitely, unimaginably, and deeper than I could ever ask or imagine. Because of his great love for me, I will love him and obey him.