Comments on: A Christian Heresy? http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/11/03/a-needed-reminder/ Sat, 11 Feb 2012 13:57:31 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: shanda20048 http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/11/03/a-needed-reminder/comment-page-1/#comment-2139 shanda20048 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:46:34 +0000 http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=341#comment-2139 We are players in a much bigger plan. From another world religon: "The entire universe, with all its stars and planets are only 1/4 of God's creation." (a paraphrase) How can we think that we can do anything? The Kingdom of God is within us via the Holy Ghost, and it is in everything created. It is through the divine light that we reach God. The light is like a tree upside down where the branches (all true religions)can reach the light and commune with God in prayer and praise. The seed of Abraham that would "bless all nations" was Jesus. Jesus said near the time of his death, "Be of great joy for I have overcome the world." (parphrase) He took the world back from Satan and death. The O.T. and as now, God reigns and as co-heir to the earth, Jesus reigns with Him. God has always been the owner of His creation. He heard the voices of the Isrealites (His chosen people to have a pure line to bring His Son through and as a promise to Abraham and love for David), yet, He determines what he will do and not do. *"We must get something clear..We are players in a much bigger plan, we must do the best we can, the measures of our souls are at stake, we must give more than we take." and I don't know the reason but I know I must put all my trust in Yhwh and Jesus because God knows better than I. Shanda Ps. *Quote from song on movie, "Joseph. King of Dreams." We are players in a much bigger plan. From another world religon: “The entire universe, with all its stars and planets are only 1/4 of God’s creation.” (a paraphrase) How can we think that we can do anything? The Kingdom of God is within us via the Holy Ghost, and it is in everything created. It is through the divine light that we reach God. The light is like a tree upside down where the branches (all true religions)can reach the light and commune with God in prayer and praise. The seed of Abraham that would “bless all nations” was Jesus. Jesus said near the time of his death, “Be of great joy for I have overcome the world.” (parphrase) He took the world back from Satan and death. The O.T. and as now, God reigns and as co-heir to the earth, Jesus reigns with Him. God has always been the owner of His creation. He heard the voices of the Isrealites (His chosen people to have a pure line to bring His Son through and as a promise to Abraham and love for David), yet, He determines what he will do and not do. *”We must get something clear..We are players in a much bigger plan, we must do the best we can, the measures of our souls are at stake, we must give more than we take.” and I don’t know the reason but I know I must put all my trust in Yhwh and Jesus because God knows better than I.
Shanda
Ps. *Quote from song on movie, “Joseph. King of Dreams.”

]]> By: ADL http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/11/03/a-needed-reminder/comment-page-1/#comment-2128 ADL Thu, 05 Nov 2009 04:47:23 +0000 http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=341#comment-2128 Interesting thoughts, Kevin. I certainly appreciate your heart and concern for this Christian triumphalism that often lacks theological depth and practical self-sacrifice for others. And I wholeheartedly agree that we need to worship with assurance God already reigns. But, my first inclination is to say that you are missing some important things here. For us who live and work out in the marketplace (both of commerce and of ideas), outside the friendly confines of the church, such an attitude smacks of neglect. Is not the clear command of Scripture "Go"? Your strong statement naturally makes me wonder if this neglect itself is not a Christian heresy as well. Furthermore, I wonder if this is not one of the reasons why so many openly challenge God's reign by simply saying He couldn't possible exist. Without the truth and love of Christ brought out into the thick of things, why should lost people think otherwise? Who but us who are called out here into the marketplace will then have to give an account for that neglect? You can hold back the compelling example in word and deed of the transforming power of the gospel, but you have not convinced me, friend. This is not about building God's kingdom. It's about effective communication of the truth of the gospel in the face of the strongholds and false arguments that oppress and enslave so many of our dear, lost friends around us. Check 2 Corinthians 10:1-6, my friend, and I ask you: What are we to do with these weapons but use them? Interesting thoughts, Kevin. I certainly appreciate your heart and concern for this Christian triumphalism that often lacks theological depth and practical self-sacrifice for others. And I wholeheartedly agree that we need to worship with assurance God already reigns.

But, my first inclination is to say that you are missing some important things here. For us who live and work out in the marketplace (both of commerce and of ideas), outside the friendly confines of the church, such an attitude smacks of neglect. Is not the clear command of Scripture “Go”?

Your strong statement naturally makes me wonder if this neglect itself is not a Christian heresy as well. Furthermore, I wonder if this is not one of the reasons why so many openly challenge God’s reign by simply saying He couldn’t possible exist. Without the truth and love of Christ brought out into the thick of things, why should lost people think otherwise?

Who but us who are called out here into the marketplace will then have to give an account for that neglect? You can hold back the compelling example in word and deed of the transforming power of the gospel, but you have not convinced me, friend.

This is not about building God’s kingdom. It’s about effective communication of the truth of the gospel in the face of the strongholds and false arguments that oppress and enslave so many of our dear, lost friends around us. Check 2 Corinthians 10:1-6, my friend, and I ask you: What are we to do with these weapons but use them?

]]> By: Common Loon http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/11/03/a-needed-reminder/comment-page-1/#comment-2125 Common Loon Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:18:14 +0000 http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=341#comment-2125 Question: Does God use people to build His kingdom? For example, if I commit to "live out the ethics of the kingdom" and "pray for the kingdom", does this mean that I'm attempting to "build the kingdom" slash "usher in the kingdom" OR could it be that God is using me to do those things? How would I know which side of the "heresy" boundary I'm on? Question: Does God use people to build His kingdom?

For example, if I commit to “live out the ethics of the kingdom” and “pray for the kingdom”, does this mean that I’m attempting to “build the kingdom” slash “usher in the kingdom” OR could it be that God is using me to do those things?

How would I know which side of the “heresy” boundary I’m on?

]]> By: Andrew Hall http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/11/03/a-needed-reminder/comment-page-1/#comment-2121 Andrew Hall Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:42:05 +0000 http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=341#comment-2121 On a similar note, it seems too that a lot of recent scholarship has emphasized that the Gospels' message of "the kingdom of God" is essentially the same thing as "the righteousness of God" in Romans. That is, God is faithfully exercising his reign to bring about the fulfillment of his promises to Abraham and to Israel for all mankind. I think this view of the "righteousness of God" is also much more inclusive than a mere "covenant fidelity" (e.g., Wright)--though certainly not less than this--and includes the promises of the Edenic, Abrahamic, and Davidic covenants as well. On a similar note, it seems too that a lot of recent scholarship has emphasized that the Gospels’ message of “the kingdom of God” is essentially the same thing as “the righteousness of God” in Romans. That is, God is faithfully exercising his reign to bring about the fulfillment of his promises to Abraham and to Israel for all mankind. I think this view of the “righteousness of God” is also much more inclusive than a mere “covenant fidelity” (e.g., Wright)–though certainly not less than this–and includes the promises of the Edenic, Abrahamic, and Davidic covenants as well.

]]> By: Andrew Hall http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/11/03/a-needed-reminder/comment-page-1/#comment-2120 Andrew Hall Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:35:43 +0000 http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=341#comment-2120 I remember reading about the kingdom of God in G. E. Ladd's NT Theology, that basileia tou theou usually refers to the "kingship" of God, his dynamic, active reign which he exercises in the earth (cf John 18:36 RSV). It is not a locality, though it can be entered into (John 3:3,5). I think this can also be seen pretty easily from the fact that the kingdom of God is a message which Jesus and the apostles declared, the "gospel of the kingdom." I think a lot of the emergent theology has certainly pushed this out of whack. Even our preaching which brings about the faith whereby people enter the kingdom (Col 1) is not itself the reign of God. This reign is (a) the gospel itself, the message that God has faithfully brought about his victory over sin, death, the devil, and the world darkened and deluded in his sway; and (b) the power of the Spirit that regenerates people and brings them to faith in this message. We're not bringing about the kingdom, though we are partcipants in God's work of exercising his reign. I remember reading about the kingdom of God in G. E. Ladd’s NT Theology, that basileia tou theou usually refers to the “kingship” of God, his dynamic, active reign which he exercises in the earth (cf John 18:36 RSV). It is not a locality, though it can be entered into (John 3:3,5). I think this can also be seen pretty easily from the fact that the kingdom of God is a message which Jesus and the apostles declared, the “gospel of the kingdom.” I think a lot of the emergent theology has certainly pushed this out of whack. Even our preaching which brings about the faith whereby people enter the kingdom (Col 1) is not itself the reign of God. This reign is (a) the gospel itself, the message that God has faithfully brought about his victory over sin, death, the devil, and the world darkened and deluded in his sway; and (b) the power of the Spirit that regenerates people and brings them to faith in this message. We’re not bringing about the kingdom, though we are partcipants in God’s work of exercising his reign.

]]> By: chris http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/11/03/a-needed-reminder/comment-page-1/#comment-2116 chris Wed, 04 Nov 2009 19:13:06 +0000 http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=341#comment-2116 Greg, But the book in question is on the Old testament. Not the New. Kevin does not seem to be denying the advancement of the kingdom, but rather the establishment of God's reign, which is absolute in the hearts of His people. This is why worship is central, the beginning of the week. The kingdom in history, as it is expressed in the other six days, is progressive. The establishment of Israel's rule over the land was progressive, but it was absolute in the promise given to Abraham. God uses means— people, events, words, symbols, etc.— in history to do this. Greg,
But the book in question is on the Old testament. Not the New.

Kevin does not seem to be denying the advancement of the kingdom, but rather the establishment of God’s reign, which is absolute in the hearts of His people. This is why worship is central, the beginning of the week. The kingdom in history, as it is expressed in the other six days, is progressive. The establishment of Israel’s rule over the land was progressive, but it was absolute in the promise given to Abraham. God uses means— people, events, words, symbols, etc.— in history to do this.

]]> By: Greg http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/11/03/a-needed-reminder/comment-page-1/#comment-2114 Greg Wed, 04 Nov 2009 17:41:06 +0000 http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=341#comment-2114 The NT shows that the reality of God's kingdom calls for action, not passivity. The questions remaining, though, are "what type of action?" and "is this action to be identified with or labeled as building the kingdom?" As Kevin has pointed out, the NT suggests "no" for the second question. The NT shows that the reality of God’s kingdom calls for action, not passivity.

The questions remaining, though, are “what type of action?” and “is this action to be identified with or labeled as building the kingdom?”

As Kevin has pointed out, the NT suggests “no” for the second question.

]]> By: chris http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/11/03/a-needed-reminder/comment-page-1/#comment-2111 chris Wed, 04 Nov 2009 16:39:53 +0000 http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=341#comment-2111 John, There seem to be two arguments happening here: first, the need to acknowledge that it is God's kingdom and He builds it. Absolutely. And, the fact that we are called to get in there and get calloused hands. The two things are not at odds. In fact, when the saints are active in doing the works of the Lord it is a sure sign that He is in charge. The antithetical tension is needless. We need to live with the two aspects without setting them against one another. If the kingdom is so very future, then should we just sit down and wait it out? Silly, right? John,
There seem to be two arguments happening here: first, the need to acknowledge that it is God’s kingdom and He builds it. Absolutely.

And, the fact that we are called to get in there and get calloused hands.

The two things are not at odds. In fact, when the saints are active in doing the works of the Lord it is a sure sign that He is in charge.

The antithetical tension is needless. We need to live with the two aspects without setting them against one another.

If the kingdom is so very future, then should we just sit down and wait it out? Silly, right?

]]> By: John Thomson http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/11/03/a-needed-reminder/comment-page-1/#comment-2108 John Thomson Wed, 04 Nov 2009 11:09:48 +0000 http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=341#comment-2108 Like Kevin, I think it is important to reflect biblical thinking as accurately as possible. It preserves us from mindsets that can easily lead to heresy. We 'receive' the Kingdom. The Kingdom is God's. As an image it suggests paramountly the sovereignty of God. Yet, we should avoid overstating the issue. Sam's farming analogy is surely right (1 Cor 3). Christ 'builds' his church yet Paul builds as a 'master builder' and others build upon it (1 Cor 3). In the great commission we are called to 'make disciples', a work in the final analysis only God can do. In fact, some references suggest our involvement in the extension of the Kingdom. David is told, 'I know that you will surely be king and that the kingdom of Israel will be established in your hands.' (1Sa 24:20) It is worth noting too that most NT references to the Kingdom seem to refer to the future. Like Kevin, I think it is important to reflect biblical thinking as accurately as possible. It preserves us from mindsets that can easily lead to heresy. We ‘receive’ the Kingdom. The Kingdom is God’s. As an image it suggests paramountly the sovereignty of God.

Yet, we should avoid overstating the issue. Sam’s farming analogy is surely right (1 Cor 3). Christ ‘builds’ his church yet Paul builds as a ‘master builder’ and others build upon it (1 Cor 3). In the great commission we are called to ‘make disciples’, a work in the final analysis only God can do.

In fact, some references suggest our involvement in the extension of the Kingdom. David is told, ‘I know that you will surely be king and that the kingdom of Israel will be established in your hands.’ (1Sa 24:20)

It is worth noting too that most NT references to the Kingdom seem to refer to the future.

]]> By: chris http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/11/03/a-needed-reminder/comment-page-1/#comment-2105 chris Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:39:39 +0000 http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=341#comment-2105 "But we would be unwise to make that a covert way of reckoning that it is our task to bring about Yhwh’s reign, which would be laughable if it were not a Christian heresy that is alive and well (p. 27 [paragraph breaks are mine])." The application of Biblical law takes the work of a judiciary. When Biblical law is enforced, is not God's kingdom nigh? When it is not, He threatens to withdraw, in fact the act of not-acting is His very withdrawal. Social justice cannot exist without law, and law originates in only one of two places: man's fallen mind or God's Word-revelation. What the author is suggesting is the same two-tiered world of Roman Catholicism. Oh how magnetic is the pull. We seem to never escape its constant assault. “But we would be unwise to make that a covert way of reckoning that it is our task to bring about Yhwh’s reign, which would be laughable if it were not a Christian heresy that is alive and well (p. 27 [paragraph breaks are mine]).”

The application of Biblical law takes the work of a judiciary. When Biblical law is enforced, is not God’s kingdom nigh? When it is not, He threatens to withdraw, in fact the act of not-acting is His very withdrawal. Social justice cannot exist without law, and law originates in only one of two places: man’s fallen mind or God’s Word-revelation.

What the author is suggesting is the same two-tiered world of Roman Catholicism. Oh how magnetic is the pull. We seem to never escape its constant assault.

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