I agree that it is by faith that we do good works. I am just also saying that it is also by good works that we have faith. In other words, in salvation, faith and good works are *inseparable*. They are never apart in salvation. Similarly, you can’t separate repentance and deeds in salvation. Acts 26:20 tells us that repentance is proved by deeds. Similarly, faith is proved by deeds. You can’t have one without the other.

You, on the other hand, are saying faith and good works are *separable*. You say that alone faith saves. Then, once alone faith saves you, you will later display good works. James directly contradicts you. He flat out states that we are “justified by what we do, *not* by faith alone.” James also tells us that faith apart from works (faith alone) is *dead*. Nonetheless, you insist that dead faith (faith alone) saves us, and then dead faith (faith alone) causes good works. Your theory of justification relies on dead faith (faith alone) for both salvation and for good works!

At least Luther was able to admit the problem that James presented his theory, which is more then I can say of most modern Reformists who claim to follow Luther. Concerning the book of James, Luther (in his preface to the book) said, “In the first place, it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works [2:24]… St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone… This fault, therefore, proves that this epistle is not the work of any apostle.”

This is the father of your theory on justification speaking. His theory forced him to say the Bible has contradictions! But at least He didn’t play Scripture twister and twist what James was saying into illogical nothingness, like most modern Reformists do. Luther at least understood what James was saying. Luther’s only problem was that he went too far when he tossed out the Orthodox baby (their 2000 year old understanding of Paul) with the Roman Catholic bathwater (the Catholic corruption and purchasing of works).

I will close out my comments with this: the fact that we are Christians (little Christs) should make you more willing to look skeptically at the traditions we were raised under and compare them to Scripture with an open mind, just as Christ criticized the traditions He was raised under. We should do this even if it means being at odds with our peers, as Christ was at odds with His. What I am presenting to you is not “Mormon” theology (as you said) from 150 years ago. It is 2000 years old, orthodox, Christian, and very much supported by *Scripture alone*. Therefore, I will believe it even if most of my Reformed peers hate it. Most of them don’t even know the true origins of their concept of justification! They just believe it because their parents or seminary professors did!

I agree that we love because he first loved us. Salvation on the whole is a gift. That is besides the point though. I don’t want to hijack this thread any more either. Therefore, I won’t be commenting further on this thread. If you want to discuss this more with me feel free to e-mail me at kanehbosm . md @ gmail . com (no spaces).

God bless.

You said: “Rather, he would say love is the essence of what faith is.”
I would say that we only love because he first loved us! That is why Paul says “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God”. God’s love is the driving force for our faith. Our faith is our driving force for love!

Sure, you could boil the works that James cites in chapter 2 down to “love God.” However, the point is Paul is talking about ceremonial works of the law of Moses. That is why he *always* talks about circumcision and that sort of thing when saying that works don’t justify.

Loving God and neighbor are the essence of the law. Those are not ceremonial works of the law, those are the entire foundation of the law! Paul would never say that we aren’t justified by loving God and neighbor. You won’t find one passage where he says that.

Rather, he would say love is the essence of what faith is. In Acts 20 Paul “declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.” He isn’t saying they must turn to God and follow the ceremonial works of the Mosaic law. Nor is he saying that they must simply have faith if they hope to later have works and repentance. He is saying that salvation is by faith *and* repentance, meaning turning back to loving God and neighbor.

“If works have any part in salvation than what Christ did on the cross is done in vain.”

Then, my friend, I’d like to be there when Christ returns and you have to tell him that what he did was in vain. For I tell you the truth, James does not lie. We are justified by works *and* faith working together… not by faith alone. Faith that is alone is not even faith, it is dead and useless.

Contrary to what you believe any good work that you can name can be found within the law of Moses. Out right commands to do certain good works are not found in the law however they can be found within the frame work or spirit of the law. This is why Jesus and Paul state that loving God and loving your neighbor contains all the law and the prophets. How then can you distinguish between works within the mosaic law and works apart from the law? In Romans 2 Paul talks about Gentiles that do the works of the law without having the law. The law is written on their hearts by God. Therefore any conviction a man has apart from the law is a law unto themselves. So any work that you do within the law and apart from the law is within the law of God! So your argument falls short.

As far as James citing Abraham we can see in scripture that it is by faith Abraham offered his son Isaac. For if Abraham had not faith he would not have offered his son. And faith (in the form of fear) of God compelled Rahab to hide the spies on her roof. If she had not feared she would not have hid them. So what is the driving force? What initiates the good work? It is faith.

If works have any part in salvation than what Christ did on the cross is done in vain. When he said “It is finished” he was wrong. Should we be Mormon and say we are saved by grace only after all that we can do ourselves?

Now I feel we have hijacked this post. Please accept my apologies Kevin. If I am out of place let me know.

The only thing evidenced from when James says, “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?” is that faith without works accomplishes nothing. That is his entire point. Faith apart from works is dead. Dead faith does not save.

You would say faith without works saves us… and then good works come later as a result. You have fallen into the trap of many today who preach Romans 3 hard and fast (“man is justified by faith apart from works”). They forget to mention that the passage continues with “of the law.” The context of Romans 3 and 4 is “works of the law”, the Old Testament law.

Paul’s discussions of works in Romans and other places are referring to works of the law of Moses. A major theme in his works was to combat the Pharisees who had infiltrated the church to subject it to the works of the law of Moses (see Acts 15:5). See also Acts 13:39 where Paul combats them saying, “Through Jesus everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.”

You can also look at the works of the law Paul cites to see this. In Romans 2:25 and 3:9 Paul cites the work of circumcision as an example of the types of works he is talking about. Even in the context of Eph. 2:8,9 circumcision is the “work” cited (verse 11)–a work of the law of Moses, symbolic and ceremonial to all Jews. To the contrary, James is writing about works that do not come from the law of Moses, and he says these works do justify. For instance, Abraham’s offering his son (James 2:21) and Rahab’s giving lodging to God’s spies (vs. 25), good works that were not commanded by the law of Moses to all Jews.

I’m not Catholic, I follow Scripture alone. But I refuse to toss out the Orthodox baby with the Catholic bathwater like many Protestants before us have done. The Orthodox are right in this matter. The the only place in Scripture that we find the words “faith alone” is actually a warning against Luther’s and your own perspective (James 2:24). Scripture goes *against* you on this matter, and that is why Luther hated the book of James so much and tried to add the words “alone” to some of Paul’s writings.

Dead faith does not save. Works matter in salvation much more then just being some result we should hope to eventually see as a result of faith. Trying to get people to separate their faith from all good works risks killing the very faith you aim to promote.

Not sure how to include a link in this comment box. Can someone explain?

1.believe
2.justified
3.good works

This stands in opposition to an unbiblical (R Catholic) order in salvation.

1.believe
2.good works
3.justified

Paul feels so strongly about the order that he calls the latter ‘another gospel’.