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	<title>Comments on: Vital Virginity</title>
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		<title>By: &#62;Is the &#34;Virgin Birth&#34; Essential to the Christian Faith? &#171; Pilgrims &#38; Pastors</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/12/21/vital-virginity/comment-page-1/#comment-14663</link>
		<dc:creator>&#62;Is the &#34;Virgin Birth&#34; Essential to the Christian Faith? &#171; Pilgrims &#38; Pastors</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Feb 2011 23:30:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=731#comment-14663</guid>
		<description>[...] &gt;Read what Kevin DeYoung has to say. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &gt;Read what Kevin DeYoung has to say. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: &#8216;Tis the season&#8230; and links to stimulate your thinking! - Think Theology</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/12/21/vital-virginity/comment-page-1/#comment-3239</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8216;Tis the season&#8230; and links to stimulate your thinking! - Think Theology</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 21:43:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=731#comment-3239</guid>
		<description>[...] Vital Virginity &#8211; Kevin DeYoung reflects on the importance of the Virigin birth. Excellent defense for the historic belief and biblical teaching of this miraculous event! [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Vital Virginity &#8211; Kevin DeYoung reflects on the importance of the Virigin birth. Excellent defense for the historic belief and biblical teaching of this miraculous event! [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Latest Links &#124; blog of dan</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/12/21/vital-virginity/comment-page-1/#comment-3117</link>
		<dc:creator>Latest Links &#124; blog of dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 07:03:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=731#comment-3117</guid>
		<description>[...] Vital Virginity [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Vital Virginity [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Show and Tell: Links of the Week for 12/20/09 &#124; thejakers</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/12/21/vital-virginity/comment-page-1/#comment-2950</link>
		<dc:creator>Show and Tell: Links of the Week for 12/20/09 &#124; thejakers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 16:57:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=731#comment-2950</guid>
		<description>[...] of the doctrine of the virgin birth. Read Keven DeYoung&#8217;s post (which I&#8217;m agree with) here and a follow up here. Read Tony Jones post (which is a good example of prevailing modern [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of the doctrine of the virgin birth. Read Keven DeYoung&#8217;s post (which I&#8217;m agree with) here and a follow up here. Read Tony Jones post (which is a good example of prevailing modern [...]</p>
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		<title>By: the virgin birth &#8211; does it matter? &#171; Cave Adullam</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/12/21/vital-virginity/comment-page-1/#comment-2911</link>
		<dc:creator>the virgin birth &#8211; does it matter? &#171; Cave Adullam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 12:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=731#comment-2911</guid>
		<description>[...] Thomson Leave a&#160;Comment   Categories: Uncategorized       Kevin DeYoung has a very helpful blog on the importance of the virgin birth.  Give it a visit if you [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Thomson Leave a&nbsp;Comment   Categories: Uncategorized       Kevin DeYoung has a very helpful blog on the importance of the virgin birth.  Give it a visit if you [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John Thomson</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/12/21/vital-virginity/comment-page-1/#comment-2910</link>
		<dc:creator>John Thomson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 12:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=731#comment-2910</guid>
		<description>Excellent blog Kevin.  Very helpful engagement with questioning postures. Not so sure that &#039;original sin&#039; through the male is sustainable.

The bottom line question for people of faith is, does Scripture teach it?  If so we believe it. And does it matter?  We can safely assume if it happened it matters, even if we are not able to fully understand it.

Thankyou for showing that Scripture teaches it.  I would simply add that the literary trajectory of Luke also supports it.  Elizabeth has a fairly miraculous conception - pregnant in her later years.  Mary&#039;s conception is more miraculous - a virgin conceives.

Does it matter?  Donald Mcleod&#039;s comment in The Person of Christ always bears repeating.

&#039;The virgin birth is posted on guard at the door of the mystery of Christmas; and none of us must think of hurrying past it. It stands on the threshold of the New Testament, blatantly supernatural, defying our rationalism, informing us that all that follows belongs to the same order as itself and that if we find it offensive there is no point in proceeding further.&#039;

I confess the latent unbelief in questioning, or even worse, indifferent, trivialising postures from those who claim to be believers angers me.  The &#039;has God really said&#039; hermeneutic of doubt has a Serpent at its origins.  It seemed sophisticated then and doubtless seems sophisticated now, but led then and will now to unbelief and spiritual ruin. I am appalled by how casually revealed truth such as the virgin birth can be dismissed as inconsequential or profaned by invented larrys. If I am trampolining I want all the springs intact.  I don&#039;t want to make my position precarious by foolishly removing lots of springs to see if it still works. With such a russian roulette mentality it will not be long before I remove one spring too many.

This is not a plea for jettisoning our critical faculties but for using them from the vantage of an hermeneutic of trust rather than suspicion.

Finally, I wonder how far the virgin birth serves as a prototype for &#039;the new birth&#039;.  Each new birth of the Spirit is supernatural.  It involves the Holy Spirit creating a &#039;Holy Thing&#039; in a vessel which is unclean.  Perhaps if the Virgin birth is an unnecessary spring so also is the new birth by the Spirit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent blog Kevin.  Very helpful engagement with questioning postures. Not so sure that &#8216;original sin&#8217; through the male is sustainable.</p>
<p>The bottom line question for people of faith is, does Scripture teach it?  If so we believe it. And does it matter?  We can safely assume if it happened it matters, even if we are not able to fully understand it.</p>
<p>Thankyou for showing that Scripture teaches it.  I would simply add that the literary trajectory of Luke also supports it.  Elizabeth has a fairly miraculous conception &#8211; pregnant in her later years.  Mary&#8217;s conception is more miraculous &#8211; a virgin conceives.</p>
<p>Does it matter?  Donald Mcleod&#8217;s comment in The Person of Christ always bears repeating.</p>
<p>&#8216;The virgin birth is posted on guard at the door of the mystery of Christmas; and none of us must think of hurrying past it. It stands on the threshold of the New Testament, blatantly supernatural, defying our rationalism, informing us that all that follows belongs to the same order as itself and that if we find it offensive there is no point in proceeding further.&#8217;</p>
<p>I confess the latent unbelief in questioning, or even worse, indifferent, trivialising postures from those who claim to be believers angers me.  The &#8216;has God really said&#8217; hermeneutic of doubt has a Serpent at its origins.  It seemed sophisticated then and doubtless seems sophisticated now, but led then and will now to unbelief and spiritual ruin. I am appalled by how casually revealed truth such as the virgin birth can be dismissed as inconsequential or profaned by invented larrys. If I am trampolining I want all the springs intact.  I don&#8217;t want to make my position precarious by foolishly removing lots of springs to see if it still works. With such a russian roulette mentality it will not be long before I remove one spring too many.</p>
<p>This is not a plea for jettisoning our critical faculties but for using them from the vantage of an hermeneutic of trust rather than suspicion.</p>
<p>Finally, I wonder how far the virgin birth serves as a prototype for &#8216;the new birth&#8217;.  Each new birth of the Spirit is supernatural.  It involves the Holy Spirit creating a &#8216;Holy Thing&#8217; in a vessel which is unclean.  Perhaps if the Virgin birth is an unnecessary spring so also is the new birth by the Spirit.</p>
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		<title>By: Christmas-ing &#171; ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ (in Christ Jesus)</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/12/21/vital-virginity/comment-page-1/#comment-2908</link>
		<dc:creator>Christmas-ing &#171; ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ (in Christ Jesus)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 20:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=731#comment-2908</guid>
		<description>[...] DeYoung: Vital Virginity  By the way, as I find more substantive and meaningful content on the Christmas season I&#8217;ll [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] DeYoung: Vital Virginity  By the way, as I find more substantive and meaningful content on the Christmas season I&#8217;ll [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Kuo</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/12/21/vital-virginity/comment-page-1/#comment-2907</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Kuo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:23:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=731#comment-2907</guid>
		<description>Just as you mentioned, it is possible to read almah in Isaiah as a young woman and hold parthenos as virgin in the Gospel accounts.  (We would want to do this because I believe the original prophecy in Isa. 7 is completely meaningless to its original audience if King Ahaz has to wait centuries for his miraculous sign.) To do this, we would need to look at how the New Testament uses the Old Testament typologically.  A famous test-case for this is Matt. 2:15, &quot;... This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, &#039;Out of Egypt I called my Son.&#039;&quot; (A citation of Hosea 11:1)  Matthew&#039;s fulfillment formula, &quot;This was to fullfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet&quot; makes it pretty clear the author&#039;s intent - the flight into Egypt and return after Herod&#039;s death &quot;fulfills&quot; what Hosea said.  In the context of Hosea 11:1, &quot;my son&quot; refers to Israel (the nation), so how is Matthew using this text?  

There are a number of possibilities, including Matthew ripping this text out of its context, allegory, and typology.  A typological interpretation would say that the two situations are analagous, and, in some way, God&#039;s pattern of action is mirrored in the New Testament.  So just as the almah (young woman) gave birth to a child called Immanuel as a sign indicating the deliverance of the nation of Israel from their enemies, the parthenos (virgin!) gave birth to a child (the Son of God!) called Immanuel (God Incarnate!) as a sign indicating the deliverance of the nation of Israel (now with more Gentiles!) from their enemies (sin!).  I believe that Matthew is pointing to this analogous pattern of God&#039;s action, and that in New Testament God has done something far beyond our imagination.

My weak attempt at explaining typology notwithstanding, check out Carson and Beale&#039;s &quot;Commentary on the New Testament&#039;s Use of the Old Testament&quot;: they give a full explanation of typology from an Evangelical standpoint.  That means respecting the historicity of the original events and the original context (unlike allegory).  They then go through every Old Testament allusion, citation, and quotation in the New Testament they could get their hands on and give a full exposition.

I do, on the other hand, find the grammatical evidence very weighty - the fact that the LXX translates almah as parthenos is significant.  Furthermore, where Matthew&#039;s Old Testament quotes overlap with the Synoptics, he quotes from the LXX, but where an OT quotation is unique to his Gospel Matthew&#039;s translation does not match the LXX - perhaps indicating that he provided his own translation from the Hebrew.  This would imply that Matthew has a command of both Greek and Hebrew, and if he writes parthenos it is intentional and not just copying from the LXX.  

Either way, the reading in the Gospels are clear. Jesus was born of the Virgin just like our historic orthodox creeds say.  I just wanted to provide some options here.

Finally, note that it is Jesus&#039; opponents in John 8:41 who suggest that Jesus was born of sexual immorality.  Not the greatest pattern to follow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just as you mentioned, it is possible to read almah in Isaiah as a young woman and hold parthenos as virgin in the Gospel accounts.  (We would want to do this because I believe the original prophecy in Isa. 7 is completely meaningless to its original audience if King Ahaz has to wait centuries for his miraculous sign.) To do this, we would need to look at how the New Testament uses the Old Testament typologically.  A famous test-case for this is Matt. 2:15, &#8220;&#8230; This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, &#8216;Out of Egypt I called my Son.&#8217;&#8221; (A citation of Hosea 11:1)  Matthew&#8217;s fulfillment formula, &#8220;This was to fullfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet&#8221; makes it pretty clear the author&#8217;s intent &#8211; the flight into Egypt and return after Herod&#8217;s death &#8220;fulfills&#8221; what Hosea said.  In the context of Hosea 11:1, &#8220;my son&#8221; refers to Israel (the nation), so how is Matthew using this text?  </p>
<p>There are a number of possibilities, including Matthew ripping this text out of its context, allegory, and typology.  A typological interpretation would say that the two situations are analagous, and, in some way, God&#8217;s pattern of action is mirrored in the New Testament.  So just as the almah (young woman) gave birth to a child called Immanuel as a sign indicating the deliverance of the nation of Israel from their enemies, the parthenos (virgin!) gave birth to a child (the Son of God!) called Immanuel (God Incarnate!) as a sign indicating the deliverance of the nation of Israel (now with more Gentiles!) from their enemies (sin!).  I believe that Matthew is pointing to this analogous pattern of God&#8217;s action, and that in New Testament God has done something far beyond our imagination.</p>
<p>My weak attempt at explaining typology notwithstanding, check out Carson and Beale&#8217;s &#8220;Commentary on the New Testament&#8217;s Use of the Old Testament&#8221;: they give a full explanation of typology from an Evangelical standpoint.  That means respecting the historicity of the original events and the original context (unlike allegory).  They then go through every Old Testament allusion, citation, and quotation in the New Testament they could get their hands on and give a full exposition.</p>
<p>I do, on the other hand, find the grammatical evidence very weighty &#8211; the fact that the LXX translates almah as parthenos is significant.  Furthermore, where Matthew&#8217;s Old Testament quotes overlap with the Synoptics, he quotes from the LXX, but where an OT quotation is unique to his Gospel Matthew&#8217;s translation does not match the LXX &#8211; perhaps indicating that he provided his own translation from the Hebrew.  This would imply that Matthew has a command of both Greek and Hebrew, and if he writes parthenos it is intentional and not just copying from the LXX.  </p>
<p>Either way, the reading in the Gospels are clear. Jesus was born of the Virgin just like our historic orthodox creeds say.  I just wanted to provide some options here.</p>
<p>Finally, note that it is Jesus&#8217; opponents in John 8:41 who suggest that Jesus was born of sexual immorality.  Not the greatest pattern to follow.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam H</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/12/21/vital-virginity/comment-page-1/#comment-2906</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 18:09:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=731#comment-2906</guid>
		<description>Good article Kevin, but I would nuance the last point a bit. This is how Pastor Jeff Meyers handled it:

some have suggested that the sin nature of humankind is passed on through the male line. Jesus&#039; virginal conception and birth was necessary in order to insure that his human nature not be derived from the male line, which transmits the sin nature. Since Jesus was to be born without a sin nature, he therefore had to be born without the agency of a man.

How do we evaluate this theory? Before criticizing it we should note that Jesus did not, in fact, possess a sin nature. This much is clear from Scripture, even in Luke 1:35: &quot;the one to be born will be called Holy.&quot; The question is: did the absence of the male factor insure his sinlessness?

The answer has got to be &quot;no.&quot; This whole approach is wrong. There is no biblical evidence to suggest that humanity&#039;s sin nature is passed on through the male seed. This theory is based on a speculative misunderstanding of transmission of original sin. Women as well as men share in the sin nature communicated to us from Adam (Psalm 51:5, &quot;In sin did my mother conceive me&quot;). Mary had a sin nature and confessed her need for a savior (Luke 1:47, &quot;My spirit rejoices in God my Savior&quot;). Job 15:14 has implications for the woman as well as the man: &quot;What is man, that he could be pure, or one born of woman, that he could be righteous?&quot;

All the biblical and medical evidence confirms that both man and woman contribute toward the substance of the new offspring. The mere elimination of the male factor in his human conception would not, therefore, have insured Jesus&#039; sinlessness. Mary would have transmitted her sin nature to Jesus since Jesus partook of the substance of his mother had not the Holy Spirit prevented it. The preservation of Jesus&#039; human nature from sinful defilement owes to the Holy Spirit&#039;s involvement in the conception, not necessarily to the virginal conception. The Holy Spirit preserved Jesus &quot;at conception and through birth&quot; from the contamination of sin that would have otherwise proceeded from Mary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good article Kevin, but I would nuance the last point a bit. This is how Pastor Jeff Meyers handled it:</p>
<p>some have suggested that the sin nature of humankind is passed on through the male line. Jesus&#8217; virginal conception and birth was necessary in order to insure that his human nature not be derived from the male line, which transmits the sin nature. Since Jesus was to be born without a sin nature, he therefore had to be born without the agency of a man.</p>
<p>How do we evaluate this theory? Before criticizing it we should note that Jesus did not, in fact, possess a sin nature. This much is clear from Scripture, even in Luke 1:35: &#8220;the one to be born will be called Holy.&#8221; The question is: did the absence of the male factor insure his sinlessness?</p>
<p>The answer has got to be &#8220;no.&#8221; This whole approach is wrong. There is no biblical evidence to suggest that humanity&#8217;s sin nature is passed on through the male seed. This theory is based on a speculative misunderstanding of transmission of original sin. Women as well as men share in the sin nature communicated to us from Adam (Psalm 51:5, &#8220;In sin did my mother conceive me&#8221;). Mary had a sin nature and confessed her need for a savior (Luke 1:47, &#8220;My spirit rejoices in God my Savior&#8221;). Job 15:14 has implications for the woman as well as the man: &#8220;What is man, that he could be pure, or one born of woman, that he could be righteous?&#8221;</p>
<p>All the biblical and medical evidence confirms that both man and woman contribute toward the substance of the new offspring. The mere elimination of the male factor in his human conception would not, therefore, have insured Jesus&#8217; sinlessness. Mary would have transmitted her sin nature to Jesus since Jesus partook of the substance of his mother had not the Holy Spirit prevented it. The preservation of Jesus&#8217; human nature from sinful defilement owes to the Holy Spirit&#8217;s involvement in the conception, not necessarily to the virginal conception. The Holy Spirit preserved Jesus &#8220;at conception and through birth&#8221; from the contamination of sin that would have otherwise proceeded from Mary.</p>
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		<title>By: John Starke</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2009/12/21/vital-virginity/comment-page-1/#comment-2904</link>
		<dc:creator>John Starke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:23:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/?p=731#comment-2904</guid>
		<description>Kevin - 
I wonder if you saw Tony Jones&#039; blog this morning?  Same topic.  
http://blog.tonyj.net/2009/12/how-important-is-marys-virginity/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin &#8211;<br />
I wonder if you saw Tony Jones&#8217; blog this morning?  Same topic.<br />
<a href="http://blog.tonyj.net/2009/12/how-important-is-marys-virginity/" rel="nofollow">http://blog.tonyj.net/2009/12/how-important-is-marys-virginity/</a></p>
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