Jul
23
2010
Jason Helopoulos on Good Reasons for Moving On
GUEST POST from Jason Helopoulos
“What right do you ever have to leave a church?” I can remember that question being asked by my ecclesiology professor in seminary. It is a good question and one that would benefit us all to wrestle with. As Kevin has recently pointed out on this blog, there is biblical warrant and there are practical reasons for entering into covenant through local church membership. Having entered into that covenant our breaking of it should never be done lightly. Clearly, there are reasons to leave a local church. But what are they? I have been thinking about this for the past ten years and this is my attempt at answering the question:
Good Reasons for Moving On—The Four P’s
1. Providential moving—If my job, family, or life has moved me from Dallas to Austin then I should probably find a local church in Austin, let alone if I moved from Michigan to North Carolina. It is right and good to belong to a local church and covenant with brothers and sisters in my own “backyard.”
2. Planting another church—It may be that I haven’t left my home town, but the church I belong to has decided to send me out with others to plant another church in the area. Notice though, that I am being sent out by my church, not leaving with a group of people because I am disgruntled or think it is a good idea.
3. Purity has been lost— It may take different forms, but primarily this occurs when the Word is no longer proclaimed. It could be that heresy is being taught, the Bible is never read or preached, or a much more prominent manifestation these days is that the Word is no longer seen as sufficient; it is used as a seasoning for the message of the week rather than the diet by which the congregation is fed and nourished upon. However, we must be careful here; patience should always be exercised and I must always test my own heart to see if I am “making a mountain out of a molehill.”
4. Peace of the church is in jeopardy due to my presence— This “reason” is hard to suggest for fear of it being abused, as it is by far the most subjective “reason.” However, there are cases where an individual/family can personally become a hindrance to the ministry of the local church and it is best for that person/family to move-on. If this is the reason I am contemplating leaving the church, then I must first test myself and discern whether it is because of sin on my own part. If that is the case then I must be quick to repent rather than move-on. This “reason” should always be approached with trepidation,
Possible Reasons for Moving On – The Three S’s
1. Spouse—An unbelieving or non-church attending spouse is not willing to attend this church, but will attend another with you.
2. Special Needs—Every family has special needs, so this one needs to be handled with care. A possible example may be that my family has a disabled child and another faithful church in the area has a wonderful ministry to disabled people which can help us.
3. Special Gifts—Another faithful church in the area may have asked for you to use your special gifts in their midst for the building up of the body (i.e. organist). Never decide this one on your own. If it is a possible reason, then it is too easy to think too highly of oneself and go running to the greener pastures. This is always something that should be taken to the leadership of your current church and wrestled through.
Reasons Often Used Which are Insufficient
1. Children’s Ministry—The Children’s ministry at another church is better. This cannot be a reason for changing churches. It is rather an opportunity for you to get involved in the children’s ministry of your church.
2. Buzz—Many people will flow to whatever church in town has the current “buzz.” The argument will be that the Spirit is at work there and we want to be part of it. But buzzes come and go. And so do the people that follow them.
3. Youth Group—The unhappiness of our teenage children in the current Youth Group, because of activities, other youth, etc. is not a reason for leaving the church we have covenanted with. I know this one will be controversial. Believe me, I have empathy as a parent and a former Youth Pastor. But our children are not the spiritual directors of our home. They should not be choosing the church we attend based upon their social status and network.
4. Church has changed—Churches always change. Unless the changes are unbiblical than we don’t have a reason to move on. We don’t move on when our wife or husband changes! We are we so quick to do so with the church we have covenanted with.
5. New Pastor—A new pastor is not a sufficient reason to change churches. It doesn’t matter how stiff, impersonal, unfunny, etc. he is. The list is endless. It doesn’t even matter if he is not the most interesting preacher. He is the man God called to this church for this time. And this is your church. Again, unless he is unbiblical why move on? You haven’t covenanted with a man, but with this body.
6. I’m Not Being Ministered to—I tell every one of our new member classes, “If we all walked into church each week and had a list of people we were going to try and ‘touch,’ encourage, or minister to, do you know how dynamic this church would be? Just on Sunday mornings, let alone if we did it during the week. If we each were concerned about the other person and walked in each Sunday with that in the forefront of our mind instead of, “Why didn’t he talk to me?,” “Why doesn’t anyone care about me?,” “Why isn’t anyone ministering to me?” Start ministering to others and you will find that you are being ministered to.
7. Music—Not a reason—whether it is slow, fast, traditional, contemporary, Psalms, hymns, or gospel choruses. Stop using it as an excuse!
8. There are others…we haven’t even mentioned the service is too early, the coffee is terrible, the pastor doesn’t know how to shuck corn (Yep…those are all true ones I have heard).
97 Comments
[...] Leaving Your Church, Part 1 A few days ago, I posted a link to an article by Jason Helopoulos listing several possible reasons for leaving a church. He broke them down into “Good Reasons for Moving On”, “Possible Reasons for Moving On”, and “Reasons Often Used Which are Insufficient”. You can (and should) read this article here. [...]
David Carlson,
Great point. As if job and money are a legitimate biblical reason for leaving a church. Where is the text on that one? That is nothing but a cultural concession which has turned into a “biblical reason”.
You asked:
We, as christians, are to be selfless, not selfish – what is your motivation in considering moving?
Answer: It’s not a sin to leave a church to attend another one. It’s wrong to manipulate Christian principles of selflessness in order to make Christians feel guilty about this.
You asked:
We, as christians, are called to live in right relationships with each other – is your motivation related to conflicts with other members? Should you address those conflicts first?
That is a different matter than leaving one church to attend another. One would assume any conflicts to be biblically resolved, if there were any.
You asked:
We, as christians, are called to live according to the spirit – our are actions governed by the Spirit, are they in accordance with the Scripture, have they been confirmed by other Godly believers?
Why would leaving one church and attending another be in conflict with the Spirit? Or not in accordance with Scripture, since Scripture doesn’t clearly address this matter? And of course, most godly believers would not confirm any reason for leaving a church accept job/money (see above) or rank heresy.
You asked:
We, as christians, are called to live by love – our are actions loving to others?
Oh, you mean I have to stay in a church forever just because it encourages other people that I’m always there. Yep, that’s love. Stay in a church you don’t want to be in because it might be viewed as unloving to ever leave.
Again, and I ask this generally to anyone, where in Scripture is it a sin to leave one local church to attend another? Where does it even discuss a “biblical reason” for leaving a church? It doesn’t.
[...] Jason Helopoulos gives 4 good reasons to leave your church, 3 possible reasons, and 8 bad reasons. This is a helpful post for anybody who’s not sure about their church. “What right do you ever have to leave a [...]
[...] answer to this very common problem. The whole article is worth reading (you can find it here http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2010/07/23/good-reasons-for-moving-on/), but here are the bullet [...]
I am not certain whether music is a reason to leave a church, but it is certainly a factor in selecting one. If one is a traditional worshiper, and the only music at every service is blaring praise music, it is probably not going to be a good match. I had that experience; it is hard to give praise through clenched teeth. Fortunately I has other options, equally faithful, and that has probably been the for the best for all concerned.
I am quite surprised by the utter lack of biblical citations to support these conclusions. Are we supposed to agree with these claims simply because he says so, or perhaps because we find that they have a ring of truth to them? I understand that some of these things are the result of common sense and conventional wisdom and that biblical support isn’t really possible or necessary, but some of these matters are directly addressed by Scripture, yet the author of this post is entirely silent on this point. I’d rather hear more ‘Thus saith the Lord’ than so much ‘Thus saith Jason’.
Raji Dani,
I would ask this? What did the Apostle Paul tell the church at Corinth. The church was in deep sin. Did he say leave? Or did he say, repent and return to the truth.
Many people leave churches with the weakest of reasons. This weakens the body. People that are left behind are tempted not to trust anyone because they do not know who will be the next to leave. Obviously, this is no excuse for those left behind to do wrong.
Maybe you should ask yourself this question? What is love. If we are supposed to love one another ( a clear commandment from scripture), what does this look like. How does this guide are interactions with our brothers and sisters? Instead of looking for scriptural guidance on when to leave the church, maybe you should be studying the scriptures about how to strengthen the church God has put you in. True love is always hard.
Monica,
The apostle Paul didn’t address the matter of leaving one church to attend another. Since generally there was only one church in each city, it wasn’t really an issue in the 1st century. So, of course he didn’t tell the Corinthians to leave and go to Ephesus. (As an aside, I’m amazed how some will mention the Corinthian church when it comes to this subject, yet they will sit in judgment over non-Reformed churches because they don’t have their doctrine straight.)
You said:
Many people leave churches with the weakest of reasons. This weakens the body.
If many people want to leave their churches, those local bodies are weak already. If the members are already gone in their hearts, they’re already gone.
You said:
People that are left behind are tempted not to trust anyone because they do not know who will be the next to leave.
That’s really each individual’s problem. No Christian should be expected to stay in a church he is not growing in just because some people remaining in the church will have this problem. Being vulnerable is a part of the Christian life. People come and go. You can still maintain relationships with Christians who leave. Love the people who are there, love the people who are elsewhere.
You said:
Instead of looking for scriptural guidance on when to leave the church, maybe you should be studying the scriptures about how to strengthen the church God has put you in.
But I’m not looking for Scriptural guidance on when to leave a church. Scripture doesn’t directly deal with this matter. And I love my church, I have no reason to leave. I was responding to the post, which lays undue burdens on the conscience of those who may want to leave one church to attend another. Pastors sometimes do this to keep people at their church, it’s a misuse of Scripture. We’re all members of the universal church, so moving from one local expression of it to another is not wrong or sinful.
Another Biblical reason is the character of the church leadership. The leader may preach the Word accurately from the pulpit but in personal relations behave in a grossly ungodly manner.
The qualities of leaders are set out in 1 Timothy 3. A leader who in private lies, deceives, manipulates, bullies etc may do a great deal of damage and at some point (after approaching the man per Matthew 18:15-20) the best course may be to leave. In a number of denominations the leader (priest/ minister/ pastor) has tenure and unless it is an extreme case of abuse the only option for members of the congregation may be to leave.
Can I ask why your spouse is a okay reason to leave the church?
How about if you have been at the church for 3 yrs, gone through 7 small groups that all dissolved over time due to the “Leader/s” feeling that they needed to step down to pursue whatever it was they needed to do, whether that be Lord driven or career driven or they took on too much. The average age of the church being 23 and no one can seem to really minister to me because I’m just a few yrs older and have gone through a divorce 3 yrs ago. Or better yet, the staff is young too, average age 29 and they are married, have young children and well at times seems cliquish.I have been involved, was in 3 different bible classes. Went above and out of my way many times to try and connect with others in the body of Christ, nothing. So I went to the church 1 last time 3 weeks ago, and really felt like it was time to move on and I have and have complete peace about being where I’m at now.
On a side note, I spoke with 3 different leaders over the span of time and they tried to help me and did but it wasn’t their fault that all the small groups they recommended me to dissolved and so I really have never felt like i was apart of the church unless i volunteered or served somewhere, and even then I forced a smile while still lacking the unity of the church.
Apparently we’re not going to get any interaction from the author of the post…
So, stephatx05, according to him you left for wrong, unbiblical reasons.
The first two P’s are ironically amusing. Providential moving. Now, mind you, this cannot be initiated by you. It has to be an act of God in relation to job/family/life (this last one being quite vague). If that doesn’t happen, you can become a “church planter”. Then you can leave your current church with a clear conscience. So, that has to at least cover 20-25 people out there.
Stephatx05, maybe you can just become a church planter?
So, let’s recap the post. “Biblical” reasons for leaving a church are as follows:
The 4 Ps
1) Circumstances must occur that you did not initiate
2) Become a church planter
3) Your church apostatizes from the faith
4) You become a hinderance to the ministry
Reason 1 and 3, you have no control over. Well, reason 2 you really don’t have control over, unless you are called to this kind of ministry. Reason 4, hmmm. Looks like your only way out.
The 3 Ss
1) If you can get your unbelieving spouse to attend another church with you. If not, you can’t leave. Also tough for all of you with believing spouses.
2) Special Needs-apparently it’s OK to leave if you have a child with a disability, for example. However, you cannot leave because your children aren’t engaged by the ministry or the Youth Group. No, no, that would be too subjective and we can’t have that!
3) Special gifts–you have to be sooooo gifted that another church actually requests your presence.
Summing up–about 1% of all you Christians have biblical reasons for leaving your church. The rest of you? Sorry, make the best of it…
We may leave any church we choose to leave and for any reason whatsoever. Free will…we have it and should use it. It’s a God-given gift, is it not?
Hey everyone,
I personally think Jason’s general principles are very helpful – though I’m not sure the aim is to make these the hard and unbreakable Law of church changing. I for one will assume Jason is not wanting to be legalistic about this, but is presenting helpful guiding principles.
The value in them, in my mind – and the thing which makes his way of thinking very biblical (even if I have some points of difference) – is in getting our whole mindset right about what “church” is and how we relate to it. The cultural problem we have is the “me”-centred consumer mentality which completely permeates modern society and which pushes us to think: If there’s something that bugs me about my church, or if I think I could get a better deal somewhere else, well hey, what’s stopping me?
The thing is, the Bible turns this completely on its head. Church is not about me getting what I want or need; it is about fellowship (i.e. sharing together in Christ), service, and faithful love. The local church is fundamentally the gathering of God’s people in Christ around his Word; it’s the earthly expression of the Body of Christ. To put it another way, the local church is the product of the gospel: sinful people reconciled to God and to one another in a new community, gathering to share in Christ, and working out what that reconciliation means in brotherly relationships.
And the NT is very realistic about what that “Body of Christ” will look like: normally weak, messy and difficult (yet at the same time a proclamation to the heavenly powers of God’s multi-faceted wisdom, Eph. 3:10).
So the fundamental counter-cultural attitude switch is, quite simply, that we are “born again” not to be served, but to serve. In terms of church, that means we need to resist the world’s consumerist approach, and make a serious and deep commitment to the (flawed, irritating, ignorant, not-like-me) brothers and sisters among whom God has put us, since together we share in Christ. That’s Jesus’ model of love and service.
Does it mean that you can never choose to change churches? Or that Jason’s list should be considered canonical, never to be added to or taken from? Of course not. I’m not even worried if not all the points have Bible proof texts, or if I don’t agree with every sub-point (since I don’t!) – this is a practical reflection on biblical principles. And what Jason has suggested does express the counter-cultural call for people to take seriously their commitment to the Body of Christ.
The practical issue is the very real problem – which I have seen so many times – of people turning into church hoppers when the slightest thing goes wrong or when things aren’t quite to their style. In my view, that reflects the world’s way of working.
And on the other hand, I have seen the God-glorifying results of very different groups in the same church, with enormous tensions, misunderstandings and differences, working things through on the basis of the gospel, to find a much richer and more mature unity than they thought possible. The testimony to the world is huge!
@Chris:
The way I think Paul would put it: Freedom … we have it as a gift of grace through Jesus, so let’s use it in love, to serve our brothers and sisters and to seek the lost!
Stephen,
Jason is laying these reasons on the consciences of God’s people as a teacher of God’s word. If he wants to qualify this list as simply some non-binding suggestions, that would be fine.
These points about consumerism, self-centeredness, etc. are way overblown. No one is suggesting that “church hopping”, properly so called is biblical. No one is suggesting that you should leave a church anytime someone there looks at you funny.
You said:
“Church is not about me getting what I want or need; it is about fellowship (i.e. sharing together in Christ), service, and faithful love.”
Well, what you need as a Christian is fellowship, service, and faithful love. If you’re not receiving that in your church, move on. This nonsense about how church is “not about me” is hypocritical. If you didn’t get anything out of being a part of the church you’re in, you wouldn’t be there.
The foolish assertion that you should stay in a particular church because you should never leave unless (insert your 4 biblical reasons) is abusive.
What we really need is some balanced perspective that allows Christians to leave a church for subjective reasons (without accusing them of being unloyal church hopping “me-centered” American consumerists)as well as objective ones. In the church I left some time ago (where I attended for almost 20 years), there are Christians drying up on the vine, who are only staying in the church because they would feel bad for leaving. Does that sound healthy to you? Is that the testimony we want to present to the world? That the church is a ball and chain? I don’t think so…
I think Chris Miller is being facetious in his comment. If not, I wouldn’t take him too seriously..
I do have some questions about “leaving the church.”
Which church are we talking about?
1 – “The Church of God?”
2 – the church of man?
In the USA, you go to a secular Goverment organization, IRS,
and ask permmision to be called “Church,” you fill out a form, called a 501 (c) 3.
When/if you’re approved, you become a Gov’t approved, Gov’t inspected,
501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax $ deductible, Religious $ Corporation.
Does that sound like “The Church” (People, His body) that we find in the Bible?
Did Jesus shed “His Blood” for a building, an organization, an institution,
a denomination, a business, a $ corporation?
Should we call a $ Corporation – “The Church of God?” AAARRRGGGHH!!
Love NOT the world and the things of the world…
If Jesus is the head of the body, the Church?
And some one leaves the church of man, the $ corporation,
have they left “The Body of Christ” “The Church?”
Would you recommend someone stay in the Catholic Church?
How about
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
What if someone has a love for the truth;
What would you recommend then?
What about Amos 3:3
Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
In the Bible, How many people have the “Title” “Pastor?”
How many congregations are… “led” by a “Pastor?” Hmmm?
Ever try pointing that out to someone with that “Title?” Ouch!
…
Doesn’t the Bible warn us about;
The Commandments of men;
The Doctrines of men;
The Philosophies of men;
The Traditions of men that make the Word of God of non effect.
Mk 7:13
What if “traditions of men” that make the word of God of non effect
are being taught in the “the church of man,” “The $ Corporation,”
and not the truth, not the Bible; Then What?
Ever try correcting a “Senior Pastor?” Ouch again!!!
How many, extra biblical, non biblical, anti biblical sermons
are we supposed to listen to?
How many twisted scriptures is “the church of man” allowed
to twist for it’s own purpose?
How many lies are we supposed to keep silent about?
And just go along with the “so called leadership?”
Four? Five? Fifty Five?
How much authority can “so called leadership” exercise
when Jesus told His disciples that they were NOT to exercise lordship
and NOT to exercise authority like the gentiles?
Mark 10:42
“Pastor/Leaders” = Exercise authority = lord it over = abuse = always
How much “Spiritual Abuse” is okay?
Why should obedience to a “so called leader” be important?
When Jesus told His disciples not to be called leaders?
Mat. 23:10.
Lot’s and lot’s of questions.
Jesus loves me and forgives me all my sins.
Uh, we’re talking about the church of God. Just because the gov’t requires you to file some paperwork in order to obtain tax exempt status doesn’t make it the “church of man”.
I would recommend to anyone in the Roman Catholic church to leave it as it is an apostate church. Same with the Mormon cult “church”. You seem very confused.
The people of God are led by the leadership He has appointed, remember Moses? Remember Paul? Remember Timothy? The title, elder or bishop, is in the Bible. Pastor is the same thing as bishop.
Jesus told his disciples not to be called leaders in the ultimate sense, that is, THE leader, because Jesus is THE leader. He wasn’t teaching them to remove the word from their vocabulary and never use it in reference to someone. Let’s use a little gray matter, shall we?
No spiritual abuse is OK, what kind of question is that?
You definitely have lots of questions, all in a tangled mess. I would recommend getting into a good church and attending a Bible study.
If Chris Miller’s comment was facetious, then I look like a bit of a goose, don’t I
@Raja:
Perhaps I’m “receiving” Jason’s comments (in terms of authority and bindingness) and interpreting them a little differently from you. I chose to asssume that he meant them as guidelines for which there may be exceptions.
In terms of the rest of your comments, the fact that I agree with most of what you said makes me think you might be reading me a little ungraciously. I wasn’t accusing anyone in this discussion of trying to defend church hopping on biblical grounds (apart from Chris, who again may have been being facetious, to my embarrassment….). And I agree that there are abusive ways to go about this whole issue, and that we need a balanced view which also looks to the health and needs of each believer. Please don’t push what I said to an extreme – I certainly didn’t intend that.
Would you be happier if Jason’s third category – “Reasons Often Used Which are Insufficient” – were titled “Reasons Often Used Which May Simply Be Excuses”, or “Reasons Often Used Which Should Be Weighed Carefully Against Other Biblical Principles”, or something such thing?
The reason I ask is that … well, I basically read them that way. Maybe the title is a little too strong. But they are all things which I have seen people jump on and too quickly and easily decide, “So I’m going to look for something which suits me / serves me better”, without stopping to seriously consider whether their commitment to serving God’s people where they are is more important.
Again, please don’t misinterpret me: I’m not saying that ALL people who go elsewhere for a better Sunday School programme are selfish. Of course not!!!
But I was commenting on what I thought was the cultural “prompt” for Jason’s post – or at least, it would have been the prompt if I had written a post on the topic
At least in my context (I’m Australian), the consumerist church-hopping mentality IS a big problem, and has been for at least 25 years. That’s not to deny that staying and shrivelling isn’t ever a problem also; but that’s not the direction in which Christian church culture has moved in the last 50 years. Personally, I think consumerism is a far greater problem in Western Christianity today than over-loyalty. You may disagree.
So I think commitment to one’s church is a big and important issue which must be raised, even if people react strongly. And even if your principles for guiding thinking on this matter are different from mine, I hope we both agree that the core Christian attitude, both with regard to church and outside it, is a kind of love which seeks to serve before seeking to be served, and which considers others’ interests before my own, a kind of love which is committed to the Body because it is Christ’s.
Stephen,
Agreed.
Please accept my apologies for reading you ungraciously.
What Jason should have done is titled that section “Considerations About Reasons Which May Be Insufficient”. As it is, I would remove or alter every reason except 2 and 8. The rest are primarily his personal opinion. 2 and 8 address your concern about consumerism and church hopping. The others can very well be sufficient reasons for leaving a church, all things considered…
Raja – Thanks for the response.
You write…
“The people of God are led by the leadership He has appointed, remember Moses? Remember Paul? Remember Timothy? The title, elder or bishop, is in the Bible. Pastor is the same thing as bishop.”
I’ll give you Moses as a ruler and a deliverer. Acts 7:35.
But Moses, the leader, didn’t make it into the promised land.
Now Paul and Timothy, can’t seem to find them being called “Leader.”
And I find NO place in the scripture – where “Pastor is the same thing as bishop.”
Where “Pastor” = “bishop.”
Where “Pastor” = “Leader.”
Where “bishop” = “Leader.”
Maybe you can help?
Can you name one person, who is called, or has the “Title,” “Pastor/Leader?”
Jesus told **His disciples** NOT to be called **leaders** and NONE did.
Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant
**His Disciples** all called themselves **Servants.**
None called themselves “leaders.” None? None.
None called themselves “servant-leader.” None.
If Jesus instructed **His Disciples** NOT to call themselves “leaders”
and someone calls them self a “leader”
or thinks they are a “leader;”
Are they a **True** “Disciple of Christ?”
Or, are they a **disobedient** “Disciple of Christ?”
Why isn’t what Jesus said important?
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall **hear my voice;**
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.
If Not Now, When?
Be blessed in your search for Truth… Jesus.
And Raja – Thanks for the concern.
You write…
“I would recommend getting into a good church and attending a Bible study.”
Don’t know if you ever checked or not but…
In the Bible, I found…
NO one ever went “To Church.”
NO one ever joined “A Church,”
NO one ever “Tithed” to a “Church.”
NO one ever “getting into a good Church.”
NO one ever brought their friends to “Church.”
NO one ever applied for membership in a “Church.”
NO buildings with Steeples and crosses called “Church.”
NO – Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews.
That’s what happens in “the church of man,” the $ Corporation.
Those are all “Traditions of men” that make void the word of God.
In “The Church of God” Jesus is the “ONE” who leads.
King James Version – Mat 23:10
Neither be ye called masters:
for “ONE” is your Master, even Christ.
The Interlinear Bible – Mat 23:10
Nor be called leaders,
for “ONE” is your leader the Christ.
Phillips Modern English – Mat 23:10
you must not let people call you leaders,
you have only “ONE” leader, Christ.
Today’s English Version – Mat 23:10
nor should you be called leader.
your “ONE” and only leader is the Messiah.
Jesus, He is the head of the body, (the ekklesia, the called out one’s),
“The church.”
In the Bible, **you become** “The Church.” The ekklesia, the called out one’s.
How can I get into, or go to, something that I am?
I am the ekklesia of God.
{{{{{{ JESUS }}}}}} loves me this I know…
Raja,
Of course, gladly! And nice to find points of agreement (and important ones). I’m probably more sympathetic to his other reasons than you are, but certainly not in a “thus says the Lord” way.
Amos,
I see, you’re a Frank Viola/George Barna/Jon Zens lets-meet-in-our-Uncle-Karl’s-basement kinda guy. Plymouth Brethren more or less.
Good for you.
Normal conventions of English language usage mean we use these expressions (i.e. going to church, etc.) to refer to the place the people (the church) meet on regular basis.
No one ever “went to church” in the Bible because there were no church buildings in the 1st Century. The Roman Empire was not exactly in favor of it, since Christianity was not recognized as a legitimate religion. I suppose, to be REALLY faithful to the Bible, we should wear tunics and sandals and meet with other believers in caves?
In the Bible, I found:
NO one had a completed New Testament, or their own Bible
NO one used paper money
NO one drove cars
NO one had computers or Internet connections
NO one made comments on blogs
Looks like you’re out of line with biblical religion.
Raja, you’re just mean-spirited…Stephen, you’re a goose indeed! God cares only that we serve him, fear him, worship him, and above all submit to him. It probably doesn’t matter to God if you sign a 20-year contract with one certain church (although fitness facilities do have written policies) or if you flutter from one place of worship to the next, sharing what you know with others, growing in your understanding of God’s word, and simply enjoying the company of like-minded, card-carrying Christians. (But never flutter from Christianity to explore “other” religions because that will surely be your ticket to hell.) Is it possible that we overthink our roles and duties as “good Christians”? We no longer burn people at the stake, bash infants into rocks, or crucify blasphemers…let’s just be happy about that, shall we, and not focus so much on which church God wants us to go to and how long we should stay there. The church, afterall, is manmade, and it’s time we admit that we can never and will never know for certain what the creator wants us to do about very important issues, let alone trivial ones like which church go to and sit in for an hour every Sunday. Maybe we should focus on ways we can help others instead of ways we can help ourselves?
Chris,
I’m answering arguments on their own terms.
The church isn’t man-made, it’s the Body of Christ. Of course we can know what our Creator wants, that’s why He has given us His word. Which church you go to is not a trivial matter.
And after all, the post is about this issue.
Raja – Are you saying you fully understand the mind of God and all of His desires….and you know this solely from the written testimonies of mere humans who received “His word” privately? “Revelations” only happen once – after that the information is passed on by word of mouth and is in the hands of humans and their pitiful memories and interpretations. If this is the case, if you know what the Creator truly wants, I have a few questions for you to ask Him: why is there suffering in the world? (That’s been asked many times with no good answer.) Why do innocent children die from disease and starvation? Why do the most helpless of God’s creatures, animals, suffer in such horrendous ways at the hands of humans? And lastly, why do humans dwell on the questions of lesser significance when the greater questions have yet to be adequately answered? Let us remember that much of the Bible is the work of authors of dubious origin…and much of it, if we are to follow the word literally, is wicked, blood-thirsty and horrifically cruel. If you “know what the Creator wants”, you are either “the chosen one” (Neo) or you are suffering from delusions of grandeur. Church = the people who make up the church. People are not perfect, and many of them suck. If you don’t like the crowd you’re hanging with at church, ditch ‘em. God spends not a moment caring where you worship.
Question- What if someone in your family was abused by a person in a leadership position?
[...] Hulse. The topic is a timely one, especially for those of us who will be attending BTC’10. Jason Helopoulos on Good Reasons for Moving On – Over at Kevin DeYoung’s Gospel Coalition blog, Heloploupos shares some helpful thoughts for [...]
Chris,
Given your position on the Bible, I have greater concerns for you than internet debate.
May the Lord bless you.
RD
[...] Few people, however, really think through the implications of their leaving their church — often resulting in pretty flimsy reasons they leave. Into this predicament, Jason Helopoulos has written a very helpful post on reasons to leave a church. [...]
RD – Have you ever read anything that does not from the outset confirm your already firmly held beliefs? Perhaps you should look into the other side in order to get an unbiased view of things.
Chris,
Sure. But that has nothing to do with this. No one is neutral or unbiased, neither are you. You’re contempt for God’s Word is very revealing. It reveals why you have such a low view of churchmanship, it reveals why you don’t think God cares which church you worship in, and it reveals that you believe in a God of your own devising–not the Triune God who has made Himself known in Scripture.
So, my exhortation to you is to repent of your unbelief.
In Christ,
RD
“Where ever two or three are gathered in “Jesus’” name there He is….” The word is at your breath in the voices of those who gather together to worship in His name (two or three). He is the truth, the Life and the word and there is no darkness in Him. This is how; “We know if we are in Him and He in Us if we love one another…(I John)” . To Love your neighbor as yourself; requires that we love one another and more so those of “THE FAITH.” The Faith of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. “Do not quench the Spirit. As to the question whether and when it is ok to leave a local church; first consult the Holy Spirit and pray with like minded brothers and sisters it is ok to cry with them for that is the way of brethren. Love must be sincere. The world and the spirit of this age has truly confused brothers and sisters giving more importance to self than to God.. Love not the world or the things of the world, do not love idols..
Agnes and Marti
I ask your forgiveness for those who hurt you and your loved one’s.
I was in “Leadership” and did my fair share of “exercising authority.”
Did my fair share of “Lording it Over” God’s heritage.
Please forgive me. And all those who “Abuse” God’s sheep.
“Spiritual Abuse” is rampant in the 501 (c) 3, Religious Corporations.
It’s the ugly elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about.
Especially those with the position of “leader” who constantly remind folks
“Don’t touch the head of God’s annointed” and “submit to spiritual authority.”
We so loved the Power, Profit, and Prestige that came with our “Titles” and “Position.”
Shhh, don’t tell anyone, we’re supposed to be humble, and a servant, like Jesus.
Agnes, No you were not wrong for leaving.
There is no excuse for “abuse.”
And you ask a good question. Where is the love?
Marti Brown, Just google “Spiritual Abuse”
it will take you to many sites dealing with this issue.
May the Lord be with you and guide you.
In my experience…
Fellowships start out, often small, and “The People” are most important.
Before long, sometimes years, “The Ministry,” “Titles” and “Positions,”
“building a tower to heaven” and “making a name for ourselves,” (Gen 11:4)
becomes more important then **Serving** “The People,” God’s people.
“The People”just become the means to keep the Corporation
and “The Good Old Boys Club” going.
I left “The Corrupt Religious System” in the early 90’s,
Though much pain, tears, and “Spiritual Abuse.”
BUT, Jesus is faithful and Jesus heals the broken hearted.
The benefit to the “Spiritual Abuse” is it drives you to Jesus.
“ALL” things do work together for good, for those who love God.
Who else has the words of eternal life. Got to get it from Jesus.
Had to beome a “Disciple of Christ” and get it from Jesus directly.
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.
John 6:45
Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice,
that he might instruct thee:
Deuteronomy 4:36
Blessings to you both.
F.A.I.T.H.
F.orsaking A.ll I. T.rust H.im
I disagree with not taking the needs of your children or teenagers into consideration. Yeah sometimes they may just have to put up with it (it’s good for teens to sometimes suck it up and be mature), but if there are no young people for them to relate to and learn with and connect with then they are very likely to drop out of church.
Church is essentially about relationships – with each other; more importantly with God. Denying your kids the chance to make strong friendships with other Christian kids is like deciding to go to a church that spoke a different language. How can you learn together? How can you be accountable? How can you submit to one another? How can you serve God together?
Paul urges believing fathers not to frustrate their children – how many children drop out of church because their parents insisted they go to a church that is totally unsuitable for them? Those kids get frustrated. They go.
(And incidentally that’s one more Biblical reference for taking your kids’ spiritual needs into account then you seem to have to justify ignoring them.)
Marti,
I don’t think anyone here ever answered your question. So, here goes. In that case, you should leave that church and depending upon what kind of abuse you are refering to, you should report the case to the local police.
I agree with a lot of the sentiment here. The Bible does not address this issue and thus it ends up being one person’s opinion vs. another’s. My experience has shown that most pastors I know would tell you that it’s generally wrong to leave a church. Naturally they say that because they don’t want people to leave THEIR church. On the flip side, Why is it OK then for a pastor to leave one church for another?? Why was it OK for Jason to leave his church in North Carolina to go to the one he’s currently at in Michigan?
About the children’s ministry issue – the comment to “become involved” in the children’s ministry can be an easy gloss from a distance. If your church begins to make decisions that begin driving the families with children away and you find yourself with one of the few kids left then you are choosing to maroon your kid on a desert island. Changing the zeitgeist at some churches is a fool’s errand or else a very long-term project. Your kid’s childhood is not indefinitely long. It is my opinion that choosing to stay at some churches is choosing to deprive your child spiritually. It is my opinion that the humble choice to serve your family may sometimes be the choice to admit a sort of defeat and give up and move on to a place where they are able to feel at home and minister and be ministered to.
Consider that Stephen’s ministry in early Acts was a response to unmet food service needs on the part of Hellenistic Jewish widows. The Apostles didn’t tell the widows to like it or lump it. They reacted to a need with a solution. And the church grew. Some churches refuse to minister to real needs while other churches in the area choose to minister. If a church refuses to minister, it may be more than an issue of being understaffed – it may be that the prevailing winds in that body have become unhealthy.
About abuse: if it was sexual, it is right to report it to the police if the church leadership refuses to do so in a timely manner (measured in days, not weeks). It probably didn’t start or stop with this one case.
If it was verbal/emotional it may be the best just to inform church leadership and move on. Sometimes one leader has the rest of the leadership duped.
Churches can and do become toxic places. Leadership that passively allows abuse is probably unhealthy and may actually resist its members’ efforts to move towards health. It is possible to label any and all disagreement as abuse and that is unfair. But if patterns of abuse are tacitly encouraged then the place is likely to become toxic to family life and it is very possible that the wise move is out.
[...] Helopoulos posts on good and bad reasons for leaving a church (ht: [...]
[...] Good Reasons For Moving On at DeYoung, Restless And [...]
well i myself will be leaving my church , not for any of those reasons but my reason is to serve as an ajutant . you see ive been cleaning my current church for about 41/2 years now with no pay God told me to do it so i did it!! and i see this as a spiritual elevation another level of serving in the ministry. ive prayed and God has answerd me so now its up to me to MOVE!!! “God will never steer you wrong”
Though it is true that Paul had a ministry to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews, and Paul and Barnabas parted ways when they could not agree about Mark, in my experience reason #4 is a result of the head saying to the feet, “I have no need of you.” Ezekiel 34 is likely relevant in these cases.
Just came across this in another blog looking for lists of five favorite preachers. Sheds light on the expression “shuck corn.”
“Voddie Baucham- Can just flat-out preach. (Or as some in TX say, ‘shuck corn’.)”