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	<title>Comments on: Debatable: Can Christians Embrace Sin and Still Be Assured of Their Salvation?</title>
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	<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/07/18/debatable-can-christians-embrace-sin-and-still-be-assured-of-their-salvation/</link>
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		<title>By: John S</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/07/18/debatable-can-christians-embrace-sin-and-still-be-assured-of-their-salvation/#comment-35389</link>
		<dc:creator>John S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2012 14:53:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=22668#comment-35389</guid>
		<description>Repent and be baptized.  Repentance is a key doctrine for salvation.   If they believe Scripture on the matter homosexuality is a sin and to be repented of.  As is true for any sin.  

In my understanding it&#039;s not perfection, that a homosexual or hetero will never have wrong thoughts or even actions, or a person who struggles with anger will never be angry, etc. Rather it means a change of mind, a change of heart about it.  Saying &#039;I don&#039;t want to do that anymore it&#039;s wrong&#039;.   I don&#039;t know how you get around repentance as a genuine Christian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Repent and be baptized.  Repentance is a key doctrine for salvation.   If they believe Scripture on the matter homosexuality is a sin and to be repented of.  As is true for any sin.  </p>
<p>In my understanding it's not perfection, that a homosexual or hetero will never have wrong thoughts or even actions, or a person who struggles with anger will never be angry, etc. Rather it means a change of mind, a change of heart about it.  Saying 'I don't want to do that anymore it's wrong'.   I don't know how you get around repentance as a genuine Christian.</p>
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		<title>By: On The Mark</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/07/18/debatable-can-christians-embrace-sin-and-still-be-assured-of-their-salvation/#comment-35316</link>
		<dc:creator>On The Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2012 16:43:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=22668#comment-35316</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I have never heard any Christian leader attack the sinfulness of greed in rich capitalists.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&quot;Rich capitalists&quot; are not necessarily greedy. Even the poor can be greedy. In the same way, a fat person is not necessarily a glutton. Even a skinny person can be a glutton.

&lt;blockquote&gt;greed is not only embraced but also protected and honored in evangelical circles.&lt;/blockquote&gt;My experience has been exactly the opposite. The people I know, both rich and poor, would be shocked to see any sin, including greed, be embraced or protected. It is not uncommon for many sins to be overlooked or ignored, but &quot;embraced&quot; and &quot;protected&quot; and &quot;honored&quot; are entirely different.

I have often wondered why we are so focused on sexual sins, but so lenient or dismissive of others. I think one reason we see Evangelicals being very clear about their opposition to the sin of homosexuality is because we also see so many explicit advocates for it.

&lt;blockquote&gt;how can we attack homosexuality so much and turn a blind eye on greed.&lt;/blockquote&gt;I agree we should not ignore greed or any other sin. But I would not characterize standing for Biblical truth regarding homosexuality as an &quot;attack&quot;. It&#039;s far more a &lt;b&gt;defense&lt;/b&gt; of Godly sexuality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I have never heard any Christian leader attack the sinfulness of greed in rich capitalists.</p></blockquote>
<p>"Rich capitalists" are not necessarily greedy. Even the poor can be greedy. In the same way, a fat person is not necessarily a glutton. Even a skinny person can be a glutton.</p>
<blockquote><p>greed is not only embraced but also protected and honored in evangelical circles.</p></blockquote>
<p>My experience has been exactly the opposite. The people I know, both rich and poor, would be shocked to see any sin, including greed, be embraced or protected. It is not uncommon for many sins to be overlooked or ignored, but "embraced" and "protected" and "honored" are entirely different.</p>
<p>I have often wondered why we are so focused on sexual sins, but so lenient or dismissive of others. I think one reason we see Evangelicals being very clear about their opposition to the sin of homosexuality is because we also see so many explicit advocates for it.</p>
<blockquote><p>how can we attack homosexuality so much and turn a blind eye on greed.</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree we should not ignore greed or any other sin. But I would not characterize standing for Biblical truth regarding homosexuality as an "attack". It's far more a <b>defense</b> of Godly sexuality.</p>
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		<title>By: Juan</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/07/18/debatable-can-christians-embrace-sin-and-still-be-assured-of-their-salvation/#comment-35313</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2012 16:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=22668#comment-35313</guid>
		<description>I just really do not understand why we put SO much emphasis on people who &quot;embrace&quot; a homosexual lifestyle but not on people who embrace other sinful lifestyles.

I have never heard any Christian leader attack the sinfulness of greed in rich capitalists. Quite the contrary, greed is not only embraced but also protected and honored in evangelical circles. Jesus spoke a great deal about greed and it&#039;s sinfulness. 

I am pro-capitalism. But how can we attack homosexuality so much and turn a blind eye on greed. Greed and the love of money has done so much damage and brought so much pain to our country. We still cannot get out of the financial mess brought to our country by greed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just really do not understand why we put SO much emphasis on people who "embrace" a homosexual lifestyle but not on people who embrace other sinful lifestyles.</p>
<p>I have never heard any Christian leader attack the sinfulness of greed in rich capitalists. Quite the contrary, greed is not only embraced but also protected and honored in evangelical circles. Jesus spoke a great deal about greed and it's sinfulness. </p>
<p>I am pro-capitalism. But how can we attack homosexuality so much and turn a blind eye on greed. Greed and the love of money has done so much damage and brought so much pain to our country. We still cannot get out of the financial mess brought to our country by greed.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/07/18/debatable-can-christians-embrace-sin-and-still-be-assured-of-their-salvation/#comment-34875</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 17:03:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=22668#comment-34875</guid>
		<description>I think that (regardless of which position is taken on this topic) many people are not accurately presenting the opposing viewpoint when they state their disagreement with it.


A person is saved by faith alone, and yet will still sin after the point of salvation.  This is the &quot;free grace&quot; and &quot;grace alone&quot; of Ephesians 2:8-9.  God saves his enemies (Romans 5:10) with his mercy, and doesn&#039;t decrease his mercy when his enemies become children.


At the same time, if a person says they are (for example) a &quot;dishonest Christian&quot; or a &quot;gay Christian&quot;  but also says they have no conviction when they &quot;embrace&quot; dishonesty or homosexuality, then this indicates they do not have the Holy Spirit working in them  (cf. John 16:8, Gal 5:17).  No work of the Holy Spirit = no salvation (Romans 8:9)  --  their profession of faith is false.  The &quot;lordship&quot; of God will prompt us to be obedient to Him.


Often, those setup a &quot;free grace vs. lordship&quot;  scenario are actually creating a false opposition of the two.  They are not acknowledging the biblical standard that real faith DOES produces fruit (faith and fruit are inseparable, James 2:14-24), the biblical STRUGGLE (Galatians 5) between conviction and action, and the biblical reality that much of the New Testament is written to help saved persons deal with the real possibility of committing sin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that (regardless of which position is taken on this topic) many people are not accurately presenting the opposing viewpoint when they state their disagreement with it.</p>
<p>A person is saved by faith alone, and yet will still sin after the point of salvation.  This is the "free grace" and "grace alone" of Ephesians 2:8-9.  God saves his enemies (Romans 5:10) with his mercy, and doesn't decrease his mercy when his enemies become children.</p>
<p>At the same time, if a person says they are (for example) a "dishonest Christian" or a "gay Christian"  but also says they have no conviction when they "embrace" dishonesty or homosexuality, then this indicates they do not have the Holy Spirit working in them  (cf. John 16:8, Gal 5:17).  No work of the Holy Spirit = no salvation (Romans 8:9)  --  their profession of faith is false.  The "lordship" of God will prompt us to be obedient to Him.</p>
<p>Often, those setup a "free grace vs. lordship"  scenario are actually creating a false opposition of the two.  They are not acknowledging the biblical standard that real faith DOES produces fruit (faith and fruit are inseparable, James 2:14-24), the biblical STRUGGLE (Galatians 5) between conviction and action, and the biblical reality that much of the New Testament is written to help saved persons deal with the real possibility of committing sin.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/07/18/debatable-can-christians-embrace-sin-and-still-be-assured-of-their-salvation/#comment-34824</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:05:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=22668#comment-34824</guid>
		<description>Hi DM,

I too am curious about what a systematic theological answer would be! In my understanding, it is also dangerous to follow the thread of this argument if we view sins as just embracing &#039;actions&#039; of disobedience to God and it leads to the two problems you stated above. 

Each sin listed in the bible reflects an even larger sin - of rejecting Christ - and it is this ultimate sin that leads to death. This stems all the way from original sin and is a violation of the first commandment. So even if our hearts are full of unrepentant sin and even if OT heroes engage in sin, we are justified under Jesus on the cross and hence are saved. However this knowing &#039;engagement&#039; of sin reflects a rebellion of God and yes, it can encapsulate homosexuality and even gluttony. But in my unknowing and unrepentant sin, I still hang on to the cross - I am justified and the Spirit will slowly expose them. On the flip-side, a person can still say he is saved solely by Christ, but in fact, as evidenced (but not proven) from his unrepentant sin, his heart does not treasure it dearly, and it is mere &#039;talk&#039;.

This is just my understanding! Hope other views will come out for discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi DM,</p>
<p>I too am curious about what a systematic theological answer would be! In my understanding, it is also dangerous to follow the thread of this argument if we view sins as just embracing 'actions' of disobedience to God and it leads to the two problems you stated above. </p>
<p>Each sin listed in the bible reflects an even larger sin - of rejecting Christ - and it is this ultimate sin that leads to death. This stems all the way from original sin and is a violation of the first commandment. So even if our hearts are full of unrepentant sin and even if OT heroes engage in sin, we are justified under Jesus on the cross and hence are saved. However this knowing 'engagement' of sin reflects a rebellion of God and yes, it can encapsulate homosexuality and even gluttony. But in my unknowing and unrepentant sin, I still hang on to the cross - I am justified and the Spirit will slowly expose them. On the flip-side, a person can still say he is saved solely by Christ, but in fact, as evidenced (but not proven) from his unrepentant sin, his heart does not treasure it dearly, and it is mere 'talk'.</p>
<p>This is just my understanding! Hope other views will come out for discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: DM</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/07/18/debatable-can-christians-embrace-sin-and-still-be-assured-of-their-salvation/#comment-34798</link>
		<dc:creator>DM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:10:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=22668#comment-34798</guid>
		<description>Anybody? Joe (Carter)?

I am very interested in getting the perspective of some Reformed theologians (professional or lay) on how to deal with these objections.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anybody? Joe (Carter)?</p>
<p>I am very interested in getting the perspective of some Reformed theologians (professional or lay) on how to deal with these objections.</p>
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		<title>By: On The Mark</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/07/18/debatable-can-christians-embrace-sin-and-still-be-assured-of-their-salvation/#comment-34797</link>
		<dc:creator>On The Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 20:02:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=22668#comment-34797</guid>
		<description>If that&#039;s your opinion of the Bible, why would it matter what Jesus is written in it to have said?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If that's your opinion of the Bible, why would it matter what Jesus is written in it to have said?</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/07/18/debatable-can-christians-embrace-sin-and-still-be-assured-of-their-salvation/#comment-34796</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 19:25:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=22668#comment-34796</guid>
		<description>Had it ever occurred to you that maybe, perhaps maybe, what the bible says about homosexuality was the result of the biases and ignorance of the people who wrote it? Did Jesus say anything about it? Is Paul (a man who said women should be submissive to men and silent in church, that slavery was OK, and that Jews killed Jesus and their prophets) more relevant than Jesus to you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Had it ever occurred to you that maybe, perhaps maybe, what the bible says about homosexuality was the result of the biases and ignorance of the people who wrote it? Did Jesus say anything about it? Is Paul (a man who said women should be submissive to men and silent in church, that slavery was OK, and that Jews killed Jesus and their prophets) more relevant than Jesus to you?</p>
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		<title>By: GARY DESTERKE</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/07/18/debatable-can-christians-embrace-sin-and-still-be-assured-of-their-salvation/#comment-34776</link>
		<dc:creator>GARY DESTERKE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 16:27:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=22668#comment-34776</guid>
		<description>&quot;A simple believer who honestly reads his Bible knows that &quot;A proud sinner defiantly ignoring the lordship of Christ while professing to embrace him as Savior is precisely what Paul says is impossible. These passages do not threaten believers who struggle with indwelling sin and fall into grievous sins ...&quot; Theologians appreciated, but not needed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"A simple believer who honestly reads his Bible knows that "A proud sinner defiantly ignoring the lordship of Christ while professing to embrace him as Savior is precisely what Paul says is impossible. These passages do not threaten believers who struggle with indwelling sin and fall into grievous sins ..." Theologians appreciated, but not needed.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/07/18/debatable-can-christians-embrace-sin-and-still-be-assured-of-their-salvation/#comment-34749</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jul 2012 02:11:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=22668#comment-34749</guid>
		<description>Someone below mentioned repentance as the distinction that Chambers misses and Adam had.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone below mentioned repentance as the distinction that Chambers misses and Adam had.</p>
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