Aug
16
2012
Lifting Jesus High
What do pignoli nut cookies have to do with Christian worship? More than you may realize. Because human life is embedded in historical context---in distinct ethnicities, geographies, and socio-economic neighborhoods---we encounter and express Christian faith differently, a fact that asserted itself with renewed vigor this summer when I visited the Procession of our Lady of Mount Carmel in Melrose Park (near Chicago), an Italian feast dating back to 1894.
If you grew up Protestant and weren't surrounded by Catholic neighbors with names like Giuseppe and Vincenzo, you may not be familiar with religious processions. The event typically begins with a Mass, after which the patron saint (in this case, an eight-foot shrine of Mary under the banner "Our Lady of Mount Carmel") is paraded through the streets. Moms and dads lift infants to be touched by the shrine, photographs of deceased family members are displayed in honor of their memory, elderly women recite the rosary in Italian and beat their breasts exclaiming Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa (Latin for "my fault, my fault, my most grievous fault"). After two hours of meandering behind the Knights of Columbus brass instrument band, the shrine is returned to the church. Parishioners then proceed to enjoy an annual feast amid fireworks, rides, and all manner of Italian delicacy.
Catholics trace the origins of processions to ceremonies in the Old Testament such as the carrying of the Ark of the Covenant (2 Sam 6; 1 Kings 8), and, in the New Testament, the triumphal entry of the Lord Jesus into Jerusalem. There are also examples from early church history when funeral processions of Christians were carried out with solemnity, such as what we see in Tertullian's De Praescriptione Haereticorum xliii (On the Prescription of the Heretics). But such history is the furthest thing from the mind of Mamma Leone and her family. If you were to inquire into their motivation for joining the procession, they would probably reply, "It is who we are."
Candid Observations
I must confess, it was fascinating to watch this event as an evangelical Protestant. Having grown up as a good (Italian) Catholic boy attending New York's equivalent, Feast of San Gennaro, I found myself dual-processing. Here are some observations.
Given my work at the Catholic/Protestant intersection, it is my goal to be exceedingly charitable toward Catholics. It's a courtesy we ourselves appreciate (to not be associated with the ludicrous examples of evangelicalism on late night religious television) so it is reasonable---to say nothing of the requirement of Christian virtue---to extend the same sort of kindness to others. Still, I must admit, I have zero tolerance for the veneration of Mary common to these events. I understand the proper Catholic distinction between veneration of Mary (hyperdulia) and worship of God (latria), but this distinction gets lost on most laypeople. Such devotion strikes me as idolatrous, and, equally problematic, it eclipses the role of Christ as the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim 2:5).
That said, I allowed myself to drift back in time for a moment and see the event through the eyes of an adolescent guido from Long Island. There I was, figuratively, in my Sergio Tacchini sweat suit, gold chain dangling from my neck, pompadour hair, and pinky ring (actually, I still wear the pinky ring) viewing the culture from the inside. I saw affection between parents and children, family identity that transcended the self, congregational singing, public prayers of repentance, and a community animated by personal warmth. None of this is the gospel; nor does it compensate for doctrinal deficiency. It is, however, the fruit of the gospel, insofar as Christian values have shined into human cultures to give them shape and definition.
Driving home from the Melrose Park, I wondered what it would look like for evangelicals to affirm and celebrate gospel fruit in instances such as this, while simultaneously helping our Catholic friends to capture the Christ-centered biblical vision.
Fructification of Faith
An illustration may help us in this task. Occasionally a generous friend will give me tickets to the symphony. Such performances are impressive when you think that an orchestra consisting of so many individuals playing vastly different instruments can produce such a rhythmically coherent sound. It works because these musicians rely upon two crucial ingredients: a score, which explains the notes to play, and a conductor, who provides personal direction. It would be catastrophic if the orchestra lost the score or if they attempted to eliminate the conductor.
An even more amazing fact is that two orchestras playing from identical scores can sound so different. When Arturo Toscanini performed Haydn's Oratorio, The Creation at La Scala, he did so with the punctilious style for which he was famous. Leonard Bernstein, on the other hand, conducted Haydn in Vienna as only someone with his eccentric personality could. They presented the same score in a different style that resulted in a different orchestral sound. The same principle applies to worship.
It is appropriate to expect variety and creativity in the Christian tradition, just as in conducting. God who exists in three persons, relating to millions of different people in diverse cultures and time periods will naturally generate a rich collection of religious experience. Such divine activity should be recognized and celebrated, for it bears witness to the wonder of a God who relates personally to his creation. I like how Thomas Howard put it in his book On Being Catholic:
Surely this riotous fructifying of fashions in public worship suggests something deeply significant about the gospel, namely, that it is a seed of such glorious vitality that, when it is planted anywhere among us mortals, it will sprout, burgeon, and bear good fruit. And more: in the colorful heaps displayed in this harvest we find the rich and particular genius of each tribe and people, redeemed, purified, raised, and touched with eternity itself. What you find in Spain and Latin America differs greatly from what you find in the Netherlands or Norway. Sicilians do not order their worship as do the Watutsi; nor does Irish Catholicism yield just the look given things by the Filipinos.
As Howard describes, we should expect to see differences of style in public worship. If you doubt this point, talk to a missionary in your church home on furlough. Contextually informed variety is a good thing.
However, we also must remember that while Toscanini and Bernstein differed in their presentations of Haydn's score, the broad outline remained fundamentally the same. In "The Heavens Are Telling" woodwinds carry the melody. Occasionally, the melody is accented and punctuated by the horns; but the two instruments are never confused. If either conductor failed to differentiate between the horns and woodwinds, the integrity of Haydn's famous chorus would have been compromised. Likewise, the Virgin Mary, the communion of saints, and the Lord Jesus Christ may be expressed with different cultural accents, but they must not be confused or removed from their proper role.
This, my friends, is our opportunity. While affirming and celebrating the fruit of the gospel wherever it is found, we also serve the world by clarifying ways in which the horn of tradition usurps the woodwinds of Scripture. The most effective way to do this is to faithfully lift up Jesus, the One who draws all people to himself and before whom every knee shall bow and tongue confess that he is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
54 Comments
"None of this is the gospel; nor does it compensate for doctrinal deficiency. It is, however, the fruit of the gospel, insofar as Christian values have shined into human cultures to give them shape and definition."
How can TGC say something like this and yet there is a lack of allowance for "doctrinal deficiency" in regards to someone like TD Jakes. (please note, I thoroughly agree that there are deficiencies)
It seems to be a call for what the world considers "tolerance" in this. Since when did cultural context become Gospel fruit? Is not true fruit a life transformed by CHRIST, restored to right relationship with God? How can ANY form of Mary worship even be considered?
Robert, I suggest that you reread the article. Here is what it says about Mary worship: “Such devotion strikes me as idolatrous, and, equally problematic, it eclipses the role of Christ as the one mediator between God and man.”
I suggest that you rewrite the article. That one sentence does not redeem the overall spirit of the piece which lumps these idolatrous practices in with "contexually informed variety" of Christian expression. I am really quite amazed to find this here on the Gospel Coalition site. It does not do justice to your readers or your leaders.
The fruit of the gospel was referring to "I saw affection between parents and children, family identity that transcended the self, congregational singing, public prayers of repentance, and a community animated by personal warmth." I do not believe that Chris intended the fruit of the gospel to refer to the veneration of Mary, but to the prayer, community, family, and intimacy he experienced and remembered.
If you decide to have a bible study at a coffee shop and purchased a cup of coffee, could this event be gospel fruit? If you pray and study God's word by the power of the Holy Spirit, definitely. If your mind is consistently on how bad the coffee tastes, and takes your focus away from Christ, probably not. As other posters and Chris have stated in the conclusion of the article:
"Likewise, the Virgin Mary, the communion of saints, and the Lord Jesus Christ may be expressed with different cultural accents, but they must not be confused or removed from their proper role.
This, my friends, is our opportunity. While affirming and celebrating the fruit of the gospel wherever it is found, we also serve the world by clarifying ways in which the horn of tradition usurps the woodwinds of Scripture. The most effective way to do this is to faithfully lift up Jesus, the One who draws all people to himself and before whom every knee shall bow and tongue confess that he is Lord to the glory of God the Father."
I live in Peru and I know these kind of processions. What I saw there is not the fruit of the gospel, but the fruit of a works-based religion.
I too live in Peru, as of a few months ago, and I see no fruit whatsoever. I see damnable idolatry leading countless souls to hell.
The Feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary was just celebrated a couple of days ago and while she is prayed to by Catholics, asking for her interseccion, she by no means an equal or a replacement for her Son, Jesus. I'm sure the vast majority of Catholics share this belief and understand her role in our Catholic faith.
Robert Graham: You misunderstand his point. He is not referring to the celebration of Mary, but of the celebration and repentance and acts them self. It is not the gospel to celebrate Mary. It is the gospel to celebrate Jesus and what He has done for us on the cross. And the fruits of the gospel should look like what they're doing except in relation to Jesus. Why are more Christians not celebrating and making much of Christ in the same way? Why is it Catholics are acting out in a more celebratory role than born again Christians who understand the essence of Scripture and the gospel. The fruits of understanding the sufficiency of Christ alone should consist of similar things they are doing. I.e. repentance, celebration, worship, gathering, proclamation, etc...get it? God bless sir.
Thank you, but where in scripture are we asked by God or Christ to celebrate in this manner? These celebrations are not displays of "The fruits of understanding the sufficiency of Christ alone...". On the contrary, they are born out of legalism and SELF-sufficiency. They are celebrations of human works, not God's. There is nothing redeeming about these. Even the picture included with the article illustrates the idolatry that is constantly a part of the festivities.
There cannot be genuine "fruit of the Gospel" where the Gospel does not exist and is clearly denied. Indeed, some people who label themselves as Catholics very well might be bearing genuine fruit (as their beliefs do not line up exactly with the Catholic Church). But generally, I believe and fear that this is not the case.
I'm agreement here with Robert, Daniel and Jordan's responses.
"<iWhile affirming and celebrating the fruit of the gospel wherever it is found, we also serve the world by clarifying ways in which the horn of tradition usurps the woodwinds of Scripture."
Do you mean that there is a place for tradition to be lifted above scripture? That seems a dangerous assertion in any context-that is if I am reading that correctly.
Grace and peace~
Just the opposite, Suzanne. The author is saying Christians need to reject tradition when it usurps Scripture, as in the case of venerating Mary in processions.
Collin, when Catholics venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary, such as in processions such as mentioned above, Catholics are simply showing respect and reverence for this blessed woman, the mother of Jesus. It takes a far stretch of the imaginiation to think that such veneration is against the 1st Commandment of God since the Blessed Virgin Mary is not and is not thought of by Catholics as being anything but the mother of Jesus, our Savior. The Blessed Virgin Mary was chosen by God to bear Jesus and so she certainly deserves to be venerated without being considered a "false idol".
This would be nice if true, but anyone who was Catholic or knows Catholics knows that Mary is considered a mediator between men and God and is truly venerated as the source of miracles done in Her name. Ever been to Fatima? Prayed a Hail Mary? Enough said.
Edwin,
Any honest investigation on the history of the deification of Mary by the Catholic religion must conclude that it is true worship of her. To confuse the matter with different terms such as hyperdulia vs. latria is not just intellectually and spiritually dishonest, it is self-deceiving. It takes no stretch of the imagination, just an honest look at true behavior and not rhetoric over the past 1500 years. (Hint, when JP II was shot he cried out to Mary to save him, not God or Jesus. In his papal bling/attire he wore a huge "M" on his chest for Mary.)
When one believes that he is seeing something of one color, it is almost impossible to have him change his mind and believe that what he sees is that of a totally different color. For your not fully understanding who the Mother of Jesus is and what her true role in the Catholic religion is, I know that I can't change you thoughts, so I won't bother.
This kind of procession happens all over the world and is a hallmark of eastern and western religions that venerate false gods. I appreciate Chris' effort to try to find a reason to be charmed by these events as containing some aroma of the Gospel mixing in with the sausage and peppers. But despite our shared childhood memories, these are not cultural food fests, but idolatrous traditions that many of the participants cling to for answered prayer and heavenly reward. Catholics need the gospel as much if not more than others among us because they being deceived about the character and promises of God and His plan for salvation. As a former Catholic, I cannot help but bristle at romanticized notions of a religion that kept me enslaved to works righteousness and praying to dead men and women.
Thanks, Louise. If I was romanticizing, I would have explicated the delights of sausage, pepper, and zeppole.
How can you associate a completely idolatrous and superstitious practice such as this procession with Christian worship? And why do you want to associate with those who deny Christ, and are enemies of his cross?
Tom, I believe that it is possible to be critical of Catholicism without having a posture of repugnance. As I state above, "Given my work at the Catholic/Protestant intersection, it is my goal to be exceedingly charitable toward Catholics. It's a courtesy we ourselves appreciate (to not be associated with the ludicrous examples of evangelicalism on late night religious television) so it is reasonable---to say nothing of the requirement of Christian virtue---to extend the same sort of kindness to others." The problem with your response and some of the above, is that you espouse a doctrine of grace but you fail to articulate it with a voice of grace. I believe it is far more missionally effective and Christ-honoring to speak the truth in love.
As for your question concerning my alleged endorsement of processions, you'll want to read the second half of the statement: "I must admit, I have zero tolerance for the veneration of Mary common to these events. I understand the proper Catholic distinction between veneration of Mary (hyperdulia) and worship of God (latria), but this distinction gets lost on most laypeople. Such devotion strikes me as idolatrous, and, equally problematic, it eclipses the role of Christ as the one mediator between God and man" (1 Tim 2:5).
I spent the 1st 55 years of my life as a Catholic, 16 years in Catholic schools with a degree from a Catholic university........ no regrets, no ax to grind against Catholicism. I do not look on these celebrations as being idolatrous as they are more about ethnicity, culture, and Christian fellowship. The virgin Mary is more recognized in the Catholic church, not worshipped. She is special which makes you wonder why she is not elevated somewhat by other faiths. I say this with keeping in mind that our focus should always be on her Son, not her or any other symblolic statue that you'll find in any Catholic church.
This being said, I left the Catholic church 16 years ago and became a reborn Christian that is asked for by Christ. Statues, parades, and extracuricular church services are not the issue. The path to salvation IS the only issue and this is what has kept me away from the Catholic church. It amazes me that most priests believe in salvation 'by grace through faith', however, this is not effectively communicated to the 'parishoners, who sit in their pews Sunday after Sunday. There are some Catholics that get it but I'm afraid most don't as they're still hung up on 'works'. But I believe that condemning all Catholics to hell is wrong. If we are to truly love as Christ commanded us then we are to approach those of the Catholic faith as we would anyone else in carrying the gospel message..........w/kindness, compassion, mercy, tolerance, and most importantly...........LOVE
If you want to extend kindness to Catholics, why not tell them they need to get off that sinking ship; that they need to turn to Christ and look to him alone, otherwise they are going to hell.
I rest my case.
Chis, I certainly do appreciate your reply to Tom and some of the others that have not shared their thoughts in a true christian manner. Charity is apparently not one of the virtues that they have, but no one is perfect and I certainly respect their own individual thoughts and beliefs, even though I don't agree with them.
If you look at my previous posts, not once did I even suggest that they need to change their beliefs as some of you have told me that I should. It is easy to change one's religious beliefs if that person's beliefs are weak and it is much hard to change anyone's hardline beliefs, my own included.
As for myself, I ended up on this page due to something that I read by my niece who was babtized a Catholic as was her husband, who now serves the Baptist beliefs as a Pastor. Both are apparently strong believers in the Baptist church, which I do not share with them, BUT I do truly respect their rights to believe in any religion that they want and my love for them is just as strong as it was before they chose the path of the Baptist Church.
With that said, as each of you believe in your Baptist beliefs, I will continue to believe in my Catholic beliefs, knowing that no matter what non-catholics feelings are towards the Catholic religion, the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus on Peter and that line of leadership continues down to today's Pope, Pope Benedict XVI. As for the other "modern day" day religions, to the best of my knowlege, they have all been started by human beings, other than Jesus. Have a blessed weekend and may His peace be with each of you.
This is the fruit of "being exceedingly charitable" toward Catholics -they applaud you for being the nicest guy in the room and remain unevangelized by the gospel, content to think they are in the "one true holy catholic church." Looking for the truth in love that Jesus would have given the religious people of his day.
That is below the belt, Louise.
Thank you for your reply to Louise Chris. I guess it's pretty easy for some people to strike out at other's beliefs and still consider themselves as a God fearing person and a true believe in their gospel that they claim to read and understand. One of my favorite thoughts is simple, What Would Jesus Do (WWJD), so I'll end my reply with this post.
I am sorry you think so Chris. I just will not play patty cake with this issue. There is too much at stake. Why are you not telling Edwin the truth about what you believe concerning the gospel of grace instead letting him try to shame your brothers and sisters in Christ with His scolding remarks? Are you seriously content to let him sign off, happily continuing in his beliefs without offering him the gospel, as a blogger on THIS site?
Louise, I am not trying to shame anyone into anything. Your beliefs are yours and mine are mine. If anyone is trying to shame anyone, it is you, but that is only my opinion and I am not your final Judge and I have no idea how you will be judged on your final day. Have a blessed and peaceful weekend.
Chris,
When a blindfolded man is standing at the edge of a cliff do you want to walk with them or pull them back and tear their blindfolds off? We should be charitable, but we should be first truthful. I think Louise' comments are aimed at the heart, not below the belt. Edwin's comments are mostly condescending in tone in almost in every one, while he covers himself with the robe of the New Tolerance. Romanism is a mission field. We should not be kicking the sand with our heads down thinking we should be quasi-affirming them. They must be warned, either gently or strongly, as the Spirit leads.
Thanks, Bob. I serve a ministry dedicated to equipping evangelicals for gospel witness among Catholics. The evangelistic vision that you have expressed defines me from top to bottom. What distinguishes my approach from the comments you've cited is a commitment to avoid triumphalistic vitriol in favor of humility and kindness.
Chris, you being a former Roman Catholic, I applaud you for your balance in both standing for doctrinal truth against the errors of Roman Catholicism, yet equally extending grace and kindness towards Catholics and affirming the good fruit in their midst. As can be shown by the above comments, it is hard to find a balance between harsh anti-Catholic rhetoric and the theologically-tepid "I'm-okay-you're-okay" nonsense.
As to our posture towards idolatrous practices in Catholicism: Aaron the high priest made the golden calf. Solomon was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write Scripture, yet was lead astray by his foreign wives. Jehu was used by God to fight the worship of Baal, yet left the high places untouched. Yes, they were in error, but they were still leaders of Israel whom God chose.
This Old Testament comparison is not an answer to the issues presented. Aaron was told to go on a mountain and die before reaching the promised land. This is not about God using donkeys to speak his truth. It is about untruths being spoken by men who claim apostolic lineage and who do not preach salvation by faith alone, in Christ alone, through grace alone, according to the Scriptures alone. Does this make me angry, to see the millions that are captive to a false gospel, YES! When I see those statues being kissed and the money pinned to them and the faithful catholics flocking to venerate, or saying novenas for the dead, or lighting candles for the souls in purgatory...I am furious...because this is bondage and they have no freedom in Christ or assurance of salvation. So if you must, go on and act smug and holier- than-those- of- us who strongly decry this. Doctrine divides and "contexualization" was never meant to close the gap between God and man that remains without the gospel of grace.
I do not deny the idolatrous origins of those practices you've listed, but if you're going to talk idolatry, you have to look at the Old Testament teaching on the matter!
I don't know how someone or a group of persons can celebrate the fruit of faith, or fruit of the gospel, if they do not have either one.
I think a distinction needs to be made between fruits of the spirit/Gospel that only regenerated Christians can possess and God's common grace, which we can witness among all people in this world, enjoying life together, whether celebrating a false religion or whatever else.
The "stone throwing" that I have witnessed here with most of you, certainly indicates to me just how God fearing some of you are. It is here with this group that I see the judgement and bitterness towards Catholics and I'm sure that if one looks around at other sites, there is probably sites that also have bitterness and also judges Baptists as well as other faiths.
Perhaps it might be remembered that striking out at someone does not create a very good common ground for discussion of any type, be it religious, political, between a husband and wife, parent and child or between next store neigbors or stangers that we meet on the street... or the Internet as is the case with me. Perhaps this is a lesson that needs yet to be learned or remembered as we go on with our daily lives.
I'm certainly happy with the thought that God will be the final Judge of each of us, no matter our religion or our beliefs. While I would think that God will judge us on this, I would also think that He will judge us on how we treat our fellow man, be it in person or on the Internet.
I don't have bitterness towards Catholics, but it grieves me that they are being deceived by their teachers. And false ecumenism such as that promoted by TGC only serves to cloud the issue.
God has provided one way only for man to be saved - by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Someone needs to stand up against the errors of Rome.
Let the so called "errors of Rome" be handled by the Pope who is the leader for those of us of the Catholic faith. Let the errors of your faith be handled by your human leader as well.
Your comment about your having a "bitterness towards Catholics" is one based on your own religious beliefs and I understand that, but be assured that while I totally disagree with your own faith that has it's original roots from within the Catholic Church, I have no bitterness for you at all. Better in my opinion to preach the true Gospel to those that have no faith at all, than to preach the true Gospel to those that already have a faith of their own. You might also check out where the original gospels came from that have been handed down to us over the ages too. Have a blessed day.
SEE? Now I rest my case, Chris.
Dear Chris,
Another fantastic article. Many, many thanks for all your hard work: reading, studying, listening, praying, and sharing with the rest of us such a winsome faith. Your articles reflect a tremendous amount of maturity.
Working in the Republic of Ireland it's very difficult for many of our brothers and sisters here to find that winsome balance now as they seek to articulate the gospel to others. So often they're running to join a church that is to them the exact antithesis of everything they've ever known—i.e., hyper-charismatic or super-fundamentalism. In talking, I believe it's just very hard for them. It's all so personal. They feel lied to. And that makes it really hard to get up again with an unbiased discernment and see the wheat from the weeds. And, for those that have been there, it makes it really hard to share the gospel to other Roman Catholics without raising up a guarded callousness.
I'm sure you've been there, Chris, and are a work in progress.
Again, your book which I've read now, and your articles, continue to bless me immensely in ministry.
Gratefully,
Ryan
Thanks, Ryan. Yes, I have been there. Most things I say on the topic of Catholicism are born out of mistakes that I made as a new Christian. In my zeal (without knowledge), I approached Catholic family and friends to tell them they were going to hell because they were Catholic. Unfortunately, they didn't see Jesus, they didn't hear Jesus; they saw an angry Protestant convert. Twenty years later and I am still doing damage control. It took a long time before I realized that Christ-centered gospel witness is concerned with balancing truth with grace, for these are the twin virtues in which our Lord Jesus himself lived (John 1:14). We must preach the gospel among our Catholic loved ones clearly and with great passion. But we can't do it with arrogance and malice. Our neighbors, coworkers and friends will know we are Christians by our love, including the Catholic ones.
Dear Chris,
If you have a moment, someone above had mentioned "They [Catholics in this case] must be warned, either gently or strongly, as the Spirit leads." What would you say briefly are some definitive marks of how Scripture reveals the Holy Spirit would be leading us in our witnessing? It seems like one message can be said in many different ways, whether with different wording or with different attitudes. Are there some key verses that you'd recommend I could reflect on, pray over and put into practice with God's help?
Yours,
Ryan
"There I was, figuratively, in my Sergio Tacchini sweat suit, gold chain dangling from my neck, pompadour hair, and pinky ring (actually, I still wear the pinky ring) viewing the culture from the inside. "
I couldn't help but read these words and wonder... Does a wog boy (like myself) have to practice self-depreciation in order to address a group of WASPs. (White Anglosaxon Protestants). Be yourself dude, God is not an Englishman.
Be assured, my departure from Italian horns and Sergio Tacchini has nothing whatsoever to do with the English.
Four years ago, I could have easily been posting comments here, asserting that Catholics are lost in a false, non-saving gospel and mired in idolatry such as the Procession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel.
I was a committed Reformed Baptist Christian, a happy member of a "Gospel Coalition-friendly" church which did not hold (to say the least) a positive view of Catholicism. Now, I am grieved to read such comments here as I once would have posted myself. I'm grieved that I so deeply misunderstood many of the teachings and practices of the Catholic Church-- as a former Catholic, no less, but not a very well-catechized one. I had no problem with saying that most Catholics did not truly, savingly know Christ, as I had come to think (wrongly) that I had not known Christ myself, truly, savingly, as a Catholic.
What changed my mind about "consistent Catholics" being idolatrous non-Christians in need of the Gospel? Many, many factors-- looming quite largely among them, deeper study of the Bible itself, though I know that many here would balk at such a claim.
Dr. David Anders, a former PCA churchman and Reformed seminarian, has walked a similar road. Here is Dr. Anders on relics, saints, and certain Marian beliefs, and their basis in the Bible and church history: http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/
I am dismayed at the compassion for false religion here. Call my comments vitiolic.... you have the right (thankfully) to do that.
Protestants cannot lift Jesus as high as He ought to be unless they forsake their Roman Catholic oriented system of church. Instead of a pope, we have local hired experts who dominate the expression of truth when the "royal priests" gather. Protestant priests have outsourced their priestly responsibilities to this hired pope (pastor). Priests are "to proclaim the glories of Him who called them from darkness to light". 1 Peter 2:9 But there they sit like mutes, having prepared nothing to "spur one another on to love and good works" having forsaken what it means to "not forsake assembley". Heb. 10:24,25. Protestant leadership structure is almost as sacerdotal and just as top-down, position driven, perpetual dependency rather than brotherly, example setting, non lording, "fully training" others to "be like them". Luke 6:40. Protestant gatherings are very closely ceremonialized as Catholic counter parts. "Giving" is collected and consumed in similar institutionalized direction in each corporation. There is more that is similar and corrupted from what the Bible says in plain english. Protestants know the true gospel but their expression of the gospel in the body of Christ is very close to equally corrupt as the Roman Catholic practice of faith.
There is a supernatural, mutual, fully participative, fully reproductive alternative to all this that allows 100% of the giving to go beyond the givers. It's in the Word but must be read without institutionalized filters on. The web of the traditions of men is wound tighly and thick around these habit patterns declaring them all "dedicated to God" (corban) just like the Pharisees did. Let us take down all the idols in our hearts, not just the ones in someone else's creche. Protestants need to protest their own practices.
I must say, as a Catholic, I do prefer that people try to convince me that Catholicism is wrong, if that's what they think, since if it's wrong I want to know. Speaking the truth in love always, though, of course. You strike the balance well, Chris.
Also, I find the idea of Catholics missing out on Jesus and/or the Gospel quite amusing.
Further, Chris, could you perhaps elaborate on this point?
"Still, I must admit, I have zero tolerance for the veneration of Mary common to these events. I understand the proper Catholic distinction between veneration of Mary (hyperdulia) and worship of God (latria), but this distinction gets lost on most laypeople. Such devotion strikes me as idolatrous, and, equally problematic, it eclipses the role of Christ as the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim 2:5)."
Are you taking issue with the Church's teaching pertaining to hyperdulia and latria? Or with the (perceived) loss of the distinction sometimes found? Or both?
Thanks, Monica. More the latter. The idea of honoring Mary is legitimate. It's the system that puts her in the spotlight that is troubling from a biblical point of view.
Hi Chris, thankyou for the clarification.
Several things:
What do you think legitimate honouring should look like? Also, by "spotlight" do you mean that you think she is focused on to the exclusion of Christ?
Are you aware that from a Catholic perspective the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the source and summit of the whole Christian life, and is one and the same as both Our Lord's sacrifice on the cross, and as the heavenly worship described in the book of Revelation? And as such, the only real worship that takes place is worship of God, as processions are not sacrifices and therefore not worship, in the truest sense? hmm, sorry, I'm not sure I've made my meaning particularly clear. (I'm sure you are aware of these things, as you are involved in ministry to Catholics, however, I would like to hear your thoughts.)
Basically, I think that any other action of honour to any saint/ Our Lady that one may give, is not even close to being at all comparable to the worship of God that takes place in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. [the question is not whether the Catholic conception of the Mass and worship is true or false. let us assume it is true. is it then inconsistent to have a procession in honour of Mary, maintaining that it is only honour, and not worship?]
Finally, what are your thoughts on the scriptural basis for Mary as the new Eve, and the Ark of the New Covenant?
Apologies for many questions.
Chris, I'm not sure which 'Bob' you were thanking but, in any event, I commend you for your ministry in reaching out to Catholics. I have a family of Catholics that I 'left behind' and they are hard to reach with the truth of the Gospel, mostly out of fear that they are abandoning God and their perceived path to salvation. In the 16 years that I've been gone from the Catholic church, I understand that reading/studying the Bible is now being promoted by the clergy. I hope and pray that is the case because in the 55 years that I was a Catholic, I never once saw a Catholic carry a Bible into church and it was never recommended. We totally relied on the gospels and epistles documented in the 'missal' and the soundbites we got from the pulpit. There was never any Bible study groups and Sunday School was totally unheard of.........what a shame. But you're right, "triumphalistic vitriol" will never when the day whereas "humility and kindness" at least has a chance and I'll add one more......patience.
Yeah, Catholics worship Mary the same way Protestants worship musicians.
I mean, seriously, looks at those people as they raise their hands to the bands on stage. If that is not worship, what is it?
Do not tell me the crazy Protestants do not believe that they need these medeators, because there is no prayer, no worship in their communities without band.
An don't tell me that they have ever seen a bible, if they would honor the Scriptures, they would know the origin of the Ave Maria. Angelus - The greeting of the angel. I mean, every catholic preschooler knows that, right?
But that's typical, hardly one of their churches opens on Christmaseve because everyone is hunting for bargains. They replaced Christmas with season sell in their religion.
And it's sad how they neglect the Psalms, even their pastors do not know how to pray the breviary. They know nothing about the apocalypse, most of them still think it is a foretelling of the fall of the Soviet Union. They also do not believe that Jesus was crucified. I mean, they think Mel Gibson had been creative and have special insides. While everyone knows that he made a movie about the Stations of the Cross. I mean, it is so obvious, isn't it? Take any Protestants to a cathedral, they have no idea what they see.
Well, it's not surprising that they have no idea who i.e. St. Anthony is, and why he has a child in his arms or why that child sits on a book. But they can not associate one of biblical scenes in a normal cathedral with the right book, b/c they just don't know the bilble.
When they say that Jesus saves, then you probably believe Jesus was goalkeeper or something.