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	<title>Comments on: Should We Baptize Infants?</title>
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		<title>By: Theology Round-Up February :: Cheesewearing Theology</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/02/07/should-we-baptize-infants/#comment-67205</link>
		<dc:creator>Theology Round-Up February :: Cheesewearing Theology</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Mar 2013 14:43:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=31675#comment-67205</guid>
		<description>[...] Hansen looks at the issue of infant [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Hansen looks at the issue of infant [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mick Lee</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/02/07/should-we-baptize-infants/#comment-64695</link>
		<dc:creator>Mick Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Feb 2013 14:52:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=31675#comment-64695</guid>
		<description>Perhaps, as I had written before, we are working from entirely different assumptions.  The orthodox among us believe that &quot;something&quot; real happens in the sacraments.  Since we believe that apart from the Holy Spirit men cannot come to faith and apart from faith all is sin.  Man&#039;s natural spirit tries to justify himself before God.  This cannot be done.  It takes God&#039;s work to have us trust in Jesus to cover us in His righteousness so that we can stand before the Holy God spotless and perfect.
In baptism, we receive faith and forgiveness of sins.  John&#039;s baptism (a baptism of repentance) was water baptism.  However the baptism of Jesus is one of the Spirit that actually imparts the Spirit of God and forgiveness.  See Acts 19:1-7 and I think you will see what I mean.
In the baptism of the Trinity, even infants (who are born sinful) will receive the Spirit and forgiveness.  Anyone at any time can and often do reject that faith; but the power of baptism is there for them to trust.  
In Colossians 2:11-13, in fact, Paul speaks of the close connection of circumcision with baptism and what happens in baptism: 
 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

We take this passage quite seriously and that Paul is not speaking figuratively.  In baptism, it is God who acts and that act is not made real by our puny faith.  It is real quite apart from ourselves.  Whether we grasp that act to ourselves is another matter.
I realize that at this point you credobaptists are probably tearing your hair out at our seemingly cluelessness to what to what you think as obvious.  But to us baptism is not merely an act following Jesus&#039; command we should do so.  There is literally a promise He makes in baptism.  And in the community of faith, the child belongs because even the littlest has faith by their trust in the care of those greater than themselves both human and His Spirit.

So it is.  Perhaps you credobaptists can enlighten me and others as to what you think the sacraments are FOR and what HAPPENS in the sacraments.  This is not a trick question.  I am really interested.  What do you think?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps, as I had written before, we are working from entirely different assumptions.  The orthodox among us believe that "something" real happens in the sacraments.  Since we believe that apart from the Holy Spirit men cannot come to faith and apart from faith all is sin.  Man's natural spirit tries to justify himself before God.  This cannot be done.  It takes God's work to have us trust in Jesus to cover us in His righteousness so that we can stand before the Holy God spotless and perfect.<br />
In baptism, we receive faith and forgiveness of sins.  John's baptism (a baptism of repentance) was water baptism.  However the baptism of Jesus is one of the Spirit that actually imparts the Spirit of God and forgiveness.  See Acts 19:1-7 and I think you will see what I mean.<br />
In the baptism of the Trinity, even infants (who are born sinful) will receive the Spirit and forgiveness.  Anyone at any time can and often do reject that faith; but the power of baptism is there for them to trust.<br />
In Colossians 2:11-13, in fact, Paul speaks of the close connection of circumcision with baptism and what happens in baptism:<br />
 11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,</p>
<p>We take this passage quite seriously and that Paul is not speaking figuratively.  In baptism, it is God who acts and that act is not made real by our puny faith.  It is real quite apart from ourselves.  Whether we grasp that act to ourselves is another matter.<br />
I realize that at this point you credobaptists are probably tearing your hair out at our seemingly cluelessness to what to what you think as obvious.  But to us baptism is not merely an act following Jesus' command we should do so.  There is literally a promise He makes in baptism.  And in the community of faith, the child belongs because even the littlest has faith by their trust in the care of those greater than themselves both human and His Spirit.</p>
<p>So it is.  Perhaps you credobaptists can enlighten me and others as to what you think the sacraments are FOR and what HAPPENS in the sacraments.  This is not a trick question.  I am really interested.  What do you think?</p>
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		<title>By: Dwight Gingrich</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/02/07/should-we-baptize-infants/#comment-64656</link>
		<dc:creator>Dwight Gingrich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Feb 2013 04:19:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=31675#comment-64656</guid>
		<description>Andrew and Rick Owen, I want to thank you for your helpful comments. I find them Christ-like in tone, insightful, and faithful to God&#039;s Word. God bless!

And to all here who are resting fully on Christ&#039;s work and determined to follow him and the writings of his Spirit-filled apostles, God speed!

As one from the Anabaptist tradition, I agree with the credobaptist position. The discontinuity between circumcision (by ethnicity) and baptism (by faith) appears to me to be clear and strongly emphasized in Scripture. That said, I don&#039;t think we should use credobaptism as a door the exclude children (and adults of limited mental capacity--an issue from above that remains unanswered) out of the kingdom, out of the people of God, or out of our churches. 

I think the question of the place of children among the people of God needs more serious consideration by credobaptists. For instance, and to turn to another New Covenant sign: Scripture is clearer about when an apostate person should *no longer* be welcome at the Lord&#039;s Supper than whether or not children or honest seekers should be included prior to baptism. It gives clear precedent for the former, but (to my knowledge) never mentions the latter. 

Sometimes Scripture doesn&#039;t answer all such questions as clearly as we imagine it should, and then we must proceed humbly with grace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew and Rick Owen, I want to thank you for your helpful comments. I find them Christ-like in tone, insightful, and faithful to God's Word. God bless!</p>
<p>And to all here who are resting fully on Christ's work and determined to follow him and the writings of his Spirit-filled apostles, God speed!</p>
<p>As one from the Anabaptist tradition, I agree with the credobaptist position. The discontinuity between circumcision (by ethnicity) and baptism (by faith) appears to me to be clear and strongly emphasized in Scripture. That said, I don't think we should use credobaptism as a door the exclude children (and adults of limited mental capacity--an issue from above that remains unanswered) out of the kingdom, out of the people of God, or out of our churches. </p>
<p>I think the question of the place of children among the people of God needs more serious consideration by credobaptists. For instance, and to turn to another New Covenant sign: Scripture is clearer about when an apostate person should *no longer* be welcome at the Lord's Supper than whether or not children or honest seekers should be included prior to baptism. It gives clear precedent for the former, but (to my knowledge) never mentions the latter. </p>
<p>Sometimes Scripture doesn't answer all such questions as clearly as we imagine it should, and then we must proceed humbly with grace.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/02/07/should-we-baptize-infants/#comment-64267</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2013 23:12:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=31675#comment-64267</guid>
		<description>Well, Rick we will have to agree to disagree. You seem to miss the main point I have been making. The Bible says there is ONE baptism for the Christian (NOT one Spirit baptism!) so there cannot be other kinds of baptism for the Christian. If &quot;water baptism&quot; is not &quot;spirit baptism&quot; then &quot;water baptism&quot; cannot be ANY kind of baptism because there is only one baptism. The problem I see is that you distinguish between &quot;kinds&quot; of baptism when the Bible clearly says there is only one Baptism. When God baptizes in water baptism, the Spirit is involved. Water baptism without God is not baptism. Water Baptism with God IS Spirit baptism! 

That&#039;s why Romans 6:3-4 states that it is by baptism that we walk in newness of life. A symbol can&#039;t do that. Only God can.

I&#039;ll let you have the last word. The Lord&#039;s blessings to you and yours...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Rick we will have to agree to disagree. You seem to miss the main point I have been making. The Bible says there is ONE baptism for the Christian (NOT one Spirit baptism!) so there cannot be other kinds of baptism for the Christian. If "water baptism" is not "spirit baptism" then "water baptism" cannot be ANY kind of baptism because there is only one baptism. The problem I see is that you distinguish between "kinds" of baptism when the Bible clearly says there is only one Baptism. When God baptizes in water baptism, the Spirit is involved. Water baptism without God is not baptism. Water Baptism with God IS Spirit baptism! </p>
<p>That's why Romans 6:3-4 states that it is by baptism that we walk in newness of life. A symbol can't do that. Only God can.</p>
<p>I'll let you have the last word. The Lord's blessings to you and yours...</p>
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		<title>By: Solomon Tingsam Li</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/02/07/should-we-baptize-infants/#comment-64217</link>
		<dc:creator>Solomon Tingsam Li</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:45:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=31675#comment-64217</guid>
		<description>Rick, as I pointed out, it is a spiritual thing.  However, if you look onto any systematic theology there is also the aspect in which we understand there is a connection between the physical and spiritual in sacraments.

In fact, that&#039;s one of the qualifications for a sacrament.  Any spiritual understanding which Paul provides is to shed light upon the question &quot;why&quot; we do these sacraments.  I hope this helps to clarify.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick, as I pointed out, it is a spiritual thing.  However, if you look onto any systematic theology there is also the aspect in which we understand there is a connection between the physical and spiritual in sacraments.</p>
<p>In fact, that's one of the qualifications for a sacrament.  Any spiritual understanding which Paul provides is to shed light upon the question "why" we do these sacraments.  I hope this helps to clarify.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Owen</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/02/07/should-we-baptize-infants/#comment-64159</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Owen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2013 15:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=31675#comment-64159</guid>
		<description>Rick,

Of course there are several kinds of baptism mentioned in Scripture. I cited specific Scriptures which made this clear. I could have cited more. The author to the Hebrews mentions plural &quot;baptisms&quot; (6:2). Acts 19:3-5 mentions two baptisms: John&#039;s baptism and baptism in the name of Jesus.

I agree with you that Ephesians 4:5 has in mind &quot;one baptism.&quot; But as I originally asked, which one? Can or should we be dogmatic about this?

I initially conceded this could be water baptism experienced by a believer as a result of conscious, human choice; just as &quot;one faith&quot; may refer to the objective body of teachings and beliefs related to faith in Christ embraced by a believer consciously and willfully. Just as there is only one message of faith in Christ given to His church to communicate and heed, there is only baptism for the church to advocate and practice, namely, baptism into the Triune Godhead whom Jesus represents.

Likewise, Eph. 4:5 could have Spirit baptism in mind, just as &quot;one faith&quot; may be similarly viewed within the realm of divine activity -- that is, as the subjective faith given by God in salvation as a free gift.

As I said, I am inclined to view this as Spirit baptism. My reasoning includes the following thoughts:

• The baptism described here, like the other unifying elements, appears to be universally experienced by all true believers, whereas water baptism might not be. It is conceivable that some (maybe many) Christians have come to faith in Christ in circumstances where they died (perhaps as martyrs or on their death bed) before they were able to undergo water baptism. 

• Likewise, Spirit baptism is what joins the body of Christ in &quot;one Spirit&quot; as &quot;one body.&quot; This overarching oneness (of one Spirit and one body) precedes the mention of baptism and is an indivisible whole of which baptism is a part. The apostle is appealing to the Ephesians, in verse 3, to &quot;maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace&quot; in light of all that they share in Christ.

• Spirit baptism, like the other divine elements and actions mentioned in this passage, is always efficacious, whereas water baptism may not correspond in the same way -- that is, it might be experienced by someone who subsequently shows that he or she is not regenerated, or in possession of the Spirit as a true member of the universal body of Christ.

I agree wholeheartedly with your last statement, &quot;God alone saves by grace alone through the faith alone that he freely gives us.&quot; However, water baptism is not essential to this kind of saving grace, whereas Spirit baptism is. While water baptism pictures salvation, Spirit baptism imparts salvation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick,</p>
<p>Of course there are several kinds of baptism mentioned in Scripture. I cited specific Scriptures which made this clear. I could have cited more. The author to the Hebrews mentions plural "baptisms" (6:2). Acts 19:3-5 mentions two baptisms: John's baptism and baptism in the name of Jesus.</p>
<p>I agree with you that Ephesians 4:5 has in mind "one baptism." But as I originally asked, which one? Can or should we be dogmatic about this?</p>
<p>I initially conceded this could be water baptism experienced by a believer as a result of conscious, human choice; just as "one faith" may refer to the objective body of teachings and beliefs related to faith in Christ embraced by a believer consciously and willfully. Just as there is only one message of faith in Christ given to His church to communicate and heed, there is only baptism for the church to advocate and practice, namely, baptism into the Triune Godhead whom Jesus represents.</p>
<p>Likewise, Eph. 4:5 could have Spirit baptism in mind, just as "one faith" may be similarly viewed within the realm of divine activity -- that is, as the subjective faith given by God in salvation as a free gift.</p>
<p>As I said, I am inclined to view this as Spirit baptism. My reasoning includes the following thoughts:</p>
<p>• The baptism described here, like the other unifying elements, appears to be universally experienced by all true believers, whereas water baptism might not be. It is conceivable that some (maybe many) Christians have come to faith in Christ in circumstances where they died (perhaps as martyrs or on their death bed) before they were able to undergo water baptism. </p>
<p>• Likewise, Spirit baptism is what joins the body of Christ in "one Spirit" as "one body." This overarching oneness (of one Spirit and one body) precedes the mention of baptism and is an indivisible whole of which baptism is a part. The apostle is appealing to the Ephesians, in verse 3, to "maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" in light of all that they share in Christ.</p>
<p>• Spirit baptism, like the other divine elements and actions mentioned in this passage, is always efficacious, whereas water baptism may not correspond in the same way -- that is, it might be experienced by someone who subsequently shows that he or she is not regenerated, or in possession of the Spirit as a true member of the universal body of Christ.</p>
<p>I agree wholeheartedly with your last statement, "God alone saves by grace alone through the faith alone that he freely gives us." However, water baptism is not essential to this kind of saving grace, whereas Spirit baptism is. While water baptism pictures salvation, Spirit baptism imparts salvation.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/02/07/should-we-baptize-infants/#comment-64104</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2013 05:06:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=31675#comment-64104</guid>
		<description>But Rick the distinction you make is not in the text. If there is one baptism and that one baptism is not water baptism, then water baptism cannot be baptism at all and we should not refer to it as baptism. There is ONE baptism, not two! - Just as there is one Lord and one faith. Any other Lord or faith must be false - because there is only ONE!

FYI, Most Christians who believe in infant baptism, consider baptism to be the work of God, not a &quot;human activity&quot;. The human activity saves no one. God alone saves by grace alone through the faith alone that he freely gives us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But Rick the distinction you make is not in the text. If there is one baptism and that one baptism is not water baptism, then water baptism cannot be baptism at all and we should not refer to it as baptism. There is ONE baptism, not two! - Just as there is one Lord and one faith. Any other Lord or faith must be false - because there is only ONE!</p>
<p>FYI, Most Christians who believe in infant baptism, consider baptism to be the work of God, not a "human activity". The human activity saves no one. God alone saves by grace alone through the faith alone that he freely gives us.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Owen</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/02/07/should-we-baptize-infants/#comment-64102</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Owen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2013 04:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=31675#comment-64102</guid>
		<description>The Ephesians 4:4-6 passage you referenced and to which I responded highlights divine elements and activities, not human activities (such as water baptism). Hence, I am inclined to believe it is referring not to water baptism, but to the baptism of the Holy Spirit -- that is, of His sealing ministry where He places us into Christ subjectively and experientially through the new birth.

The Holy Spirit is the one who spiritually baptizes us into Christ. He imparts eternal life which connects the believer to everything which belongs to him or her &quot;in Christ.&quot;

Given the theme of unity (one body and one Spirit), what follows in this passage (one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all) seems to echo 1 Cor. 12:13: &quot;For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.&quot;

This is the fulfillment of what John the Baptist said of Jesus: &quot;I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit&quot; (Mark 1:8; cf. Acts 1:5; 11:16-18; Titus 3:5). 

This connects with the New Covenant which Jesus came to fulfill by His blood (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25). The two blessings of the New Covenant are new life in the Holy Spirit, who inwardly transforms our heart and mind, and complete &amp; irrevocable forgiveness of sins (Heb. 8:10-12; 10:14-18). Both were obtained at the Cross and are subsequently bestowed by the risen Christ upon His people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Ephesians 4:4-6 passage you referenced and to which I responded highlights divine elements and activities, not human activities (such as water baptism). Hence, I am inclined to believe it is referring not to water baptism, but to the baptism of the Holy Spirit -- that is, of His sealing ministry where He places us into Christ subjectively and experientially through the new birth.</p>
<p>The Holy Spirit is the one who spiritually baptizes us into Christ. He imparts eternal life which connects the believer to everything which belongs to him or her "in Christ."</p>
<p>Given the theme of unity (one body and one Spirit), what follows in this passage (one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all) seems to echo 1 Cor. 12:13: "For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit."</p>
<p>This is the fulfillment of what John the Baptist said of Jesus: "I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit" (Mark 1:8; cf. Acts 1:5; 11:16-18; Titus 3:5). </p>
<p>This connects with the New Covenant which Jesus came to fulfill by His blood (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25). The two blessings of the New Covenant are new life in the Holy Spirit, who inwardly transforms our heart and mind, and complete &amp; irrevocable forgiveness of sins (Heb. 8:10-12; 10:14-18). Both were obtained at the Cross and are subsequently bestowed by the risen Christ upon His people.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/02/07/should-we-baptize-infants/#comment-64075</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2013 23:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=31675#comment-64075</guid>
		<description>Rick, I believe the Bible says there is ONE Baptism, there are no &quot;kinds&quot; of baptism  - just as there is one God. That verse couldn&#039;t be clearer. You make a distinction that is not Biblical imo. There is no mstrix. There is simply one baptism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick, I believe the Bible says there is ONE Baptism, there are no "kinds" of baptism  - just as there is one God. That verse couldn't be clearer. You make a distinction that is not Biblical imo. There is no mstrix. There is simply one baptism.</p>
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		<title>By: Some helpful clarification on infant baptism &#171;</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/02/07/should-we-baptize-infants/#comment-63904</link>
		<dc:creator>Some helpful clarification on infant baptism &#171;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2013 01:21:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/?p=31675#comment-63904</guid>
		<description>[...] stumbled upon a helpful short video from The Gospel Coalition website that highlights a discussion between Ligon Duncan (a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] stumbled upon a helpful short video from The Gospel Coalition website that highlights a discussion between Ligon Duncan (a [...]</p>
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