Category Archives: Audio

One Church Copes with the World Vision Aftermath

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World Vision—one of the largest charities in the United States—sent shockwaves throughout evangelical churches earlier this month by announcing that it would hire people who are in legally recognized same-sex marriages. Concerned evangelicals responded swiftly, and World Vision quickly assembled its board of directors to pray. Within about 24 hours of the policy change, World Vision rescinded it and apologized to the Christians whom it had offended.

WV2_colorThough the firestorm has now been over for weeks, the implications have not ended. World Vision has lost sponsorships. Some churches are now wary of the organization. And Bible-believing Christians around the country remain unsettled: if a respected organization like World Vision could consider and briefly embrace a policy that is so antithetical to Scripture, which other trusted parachurch organizations could be at risk for such a fall?

To help us navigate these questions and more, I spoke with Bob Bouwer, senior pastor of Faith Church in northwest Indiana. For much of the past decade, his church has closely partnered with World Vision in a number of ministry efforts out of which God has borne much fruit. In this interview, Bob shares his emotions at the height of the World Vision controversy, discusses whether that controversy has changed his church's relationship with the group, and counsels other Christians struggling with whether and how to move forward in partnering with World Vision.

He also has timely, practical help for believers and church leaders when it comes to responding to the immense challenge same-sex marriage presents for faithful churches: How do we gracefully yet truthfully minister to gays and lesbians and those struggling with same-sex attraction? What is the key to not caving in to the prevailing cultural view on this issue? Why is it impossible to separate the right view of same-sex marriage and the proclamation of the gospel? And are we prepared to suffer for holding to the biblical view?

To listen to this 20-minute interview, stream below, click this link to download the mp3, or subscribe to the Going Deeper with TGC podcast by visiting the iTunes Store.

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church-history-volume-two-from-pre-reformation-to-the-present-day-the-rise-and-growth-of-the-church-in-its-cultural-intellectual-and-political-context_7314_500

Battle of Science vs. Religion: Necessary or Evil?

Red vs. Blue. Alabama vs. Auburn. Ford vs. Chevy. Two rivals enter the arena. Only one rival will leave victorious.

church-history-volume-two-from-pre-reformation-to-the-present-day-the-rise-and-growth-of-the-church-in-its-cultural-intellectual-and-political-context_7314_500Heated though these rivalries may be, they don't compare to the winner-take-all struggle for the soul of the West. Science vs. Religion dictates our debates and defines our times. The closely watched debate on the origins of life between Ken Ham and Bill Nye confirmed this adversarial narrative. As did a recent essay in the New Yorker, in which Adam Gopnik observed, "Surprisingly few people who have considered the alternatives—few among the caucus who consciously stand up, voting aye or nay—believe any longer in God." Writing in his widely influential book A Secular Age, the eminent philosopher Charles Taylor argues that Science is winning the argument against Religion not primarily on the facts so much as the intuition: would you rather be on the side of reason and progress or dogma and repression?

Has the argument always been shaped this way? Will it always be this way?

For these answers and more I turned to John D. Woodbridge, research professor of church history and the history of Christian thought at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. Along with co-author Frank A. James III, he recently published Church History Volume Two: From Pre-Reformation to the Present Day. Among other topics in this 30-minute interview, we discussed the decline of Christianity in the West, challenges to biblical authority, and the damage of Darwinism. Stay tuned for the end of the interview when Woodbridge offers hope for Christians who feel under attack by philosophers and scientists.

You can stream the full interview below, download the mp3, or subscribe to TGC's podcast on iTunes or through your other mobile devices.

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My Top 10 Theology Stories of 2013

The only thing I know about your reaction to this list of top 10 theology stories is that you won't agree. Maybe partially, but not entirely. And that's okay. None of us sees the full picture from God's perspective. In five years we may not be talking about any of these events and trends (see what I mean by reviewing my lists from 2008200920102011, and 2012). Actually, you've probably already forgotten a number of entries on this year's list!

Yet before we turn to 2014, it can be encouraging or at least instructive to take stock of the last 12 months. Perspective is a rare gift in our social media age. If you fasted from Twitter and Facebook this year or traveled overseas then you know what I mean. The controversies that consume so much time and energy in the United States suddenly appear petty or at least irrelevant to most of us. Certainly they don't hinder God, who has lots of practice working with and through sinners. "Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? . . . He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision" (Psalm 2:1-4).

So consider my list an admittedly foolhardy attempt—written from the vantage point of an American who subscribes to The Gospel Coalition's confessional statement—to discern the most important theology stories 0f 2013. Consider it an opportunity to reflect on whether your priorities align with God's and a challenge to spread good news in a world that seeks peace but finds none apart from Jesus Christ.

If you'd like to go deeper into debating the significance of these stories, and track my greatest hits and misses from past lists, listen to this interview I recorded with Mark Mellinger.

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10. Does it matter who says it if it's good?

Historically the church has debated whether the validity of sacraments such as baptism and the Lord's Supper depend on the morality or orthodoxy of the one who administers them. The debate continues today in the case of preachers who achieve great ministry success despite consistently worrisome behavior. Does the authority of the Word depend on the character of the preacher? For that matter, how much do you actually know about your preacher's private life and whether he really believes what he says? Allegations of plagiarism against Mark Driscoll add new angles to these old debates. Now that he has admitted to inadequate citation, does that mistake invalidate the rest of his work? If he depended on a ghostwriter who said good and godly things, does that means the books should be condemned? No matter how you answer those questions, seriously consider the thoughtful responses to the problem of author platforms and our idolatry of successful ministry leaders.

9. Black and white, we're closer than ever—and just as far apart as always.

This year was bound to stir up emotions over race relations in America as we remembered the tumultuous events of 50 years ago in 1963. Indeed, George Zimmerman's acquittal in the death of Trayvon Martin revealed that we cannot just move on from our past. Theological unity does not necessarily result in understanding of how life looks from opposite sides of the ethnic divide. At the same time, response to an ill-informed panel discussion on Reformed hip-hop revealed how much evangelicals agree on when it comes to contextualization. We may not agree on the causes of ethnic strife, but we seem to understand that no one speaks from a privileged place of neutrality.

beyonce-super-bowl8. Purity and modesty provoke backlash in a sex-saturated culture.

The year kicked off with a provocative halftime act from Beyoncé at the Super Bowl. Whether you saw power or bondage explains a lot about your views on purity and modesty in a culture that idolizes sex. Few Christians lined up to defend Miley Cyrus when she upped the ante in a MTV Video Music Awards performance that attracted just the kind of attention she desired. But many did weep over who she has become. Meanwhile, LifeWay announced they would relaunch their True Love Waits campaign on its 20th anniversary, even as such high-profile advocates as Joe Jonas confess that the rings did not inspire them to wait for marriage. Pop culture provided the backdrop for vigorous debates about why so few young adults who grow up in evangelical churches resist sexual temptation. Purity has become a loaded term in an age when so many Christians seek forgiveness and hope for wholeness after sin. And modesty has become a weapon in a culture that focuses more on women's provocative behavior than the men who expect and encourage it.

7. Should American foreign policy privilege Christians?

This year left little indication that U.S. foreign policy prioritizes religious freedom. Washington reached an agreement with Iran's leaders to curtail their nuclear ambitions, but American pastor Saeed Abedini remains imprisoned. After Western military aid assisted in toppling the government, Libya remains volatile. Witness the murder of American teacher Ronnie Smith, who had been inspired to serve by a John Piper sermon. Media attention has turned to Egyptian Copts, whose security has continued to decline since the United States withdrew support from former president Hosni Mubarak. President Obama's deliberation over whether to assist rebels in defeating Syrian ruler Bashar Assad provoked an unresolved debate among American Christians. If Syrian Christians support the regime, however despotic, and stand to suffer under whatever radical Muslim group takes its place, can we in good conscience support an American military strike? Or would the common good be best served in a scenario where the Christians endure particular hardship?

6. 'Gay' Christians speak out.

Active gays who deny biblical teaching on sexuality have long since spoken loudly and proudly about their lifestyle. But with few exceptions, celibate Christians who struggle with same-sex attraction had largely remained silent about their plight, in part because of fear and misunderstanding within the church. Yes, high-profile examples such as Rosaria Butterfield's train wreck conversion inspire us. Her story has a happy ending now that she is a mother and wife of a pastor. But what about Christians whose feelings never change? Their plight led in part to Exodus International shutting down and Alan Chambers apologizing for ex-gay ministry. Testimonies such as those featured on the new Living Out site speak to the struggle to walk with God in faith when no relief is in sight. Any hope of changing minds on homosexuality needs to privilege such voices as the rest of us learn to speak with empathy and understanding. The last 10 years of cultural shifts might have looked quite different if the church had invited these believers to speak out earlier.

Duck Dynasty5. Popular TV finds faith.

At the beginning of 2013 you may have never heard of Duck Dynasty. Now you can't avoid the Robertson clan. Maybe next year Jen Hatmaker will be the breakout star on HGTV. Or maybe Ed Young Jr. as he blends Christianity with a Kardashian flair for reality TV. If you'll watch it (and oblige their advertisers), TV networks will run it. And the demand right now for faith-themed programming is hot. Breakthrough miniseries hit The Bible guarantees many imitators. Doubtless many viewers only mildly familiar with Christianity can learn about God from the Robertsons. And millions who would never open a Bible watched its drama play out on their screens at home. But as we've learned from reality TV, editing makes all the difference. How does our view of God change when we don't see the full picture? When the Christian's home life is made for TV, and when God's Word is constrained by advertising demands, what do we miss? The most recent flare-up over Phil Robertson's comments on homosexuality reveals the peril for such Christians, no matter how high their ratings.

4. Culture warriors shift from offense to defense.

President Obama's re-election late last year ensured that the White House would continue to press the cause of gay marriage and deny the rights of religious institutions to conscientiously object to the Affordable Care Act. The Supreme Court's decision to strike down the Defense of Marriage act confirmed that Christians would need to shift strategies. No longer could we press on the offensive for traditional marriage. We would need to enact an defensive strategy to protect the integrity of our schools, hospitals, and businesses. Next year's Hobby Lobby decision will be another key test. Lest veteran believers see this shift as cultural retreat, new Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission president Russell Moore argues that younger Christians activists might be even more theologically conservative than their elders. Indeed, this new strategy will in some way correct mistaken evangelical notions about what can be realistically accomplished through political means in a world that needs the gospel above all.

3. Wrath of God does not satisfy Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.).

The doctrine of propitiation seen in passages such as 2 Corinthians 5:21 and Romans 3:25-26 has been debated by theologians for centuries. And the "satisfaction theory" of the atonement is often credited to 11th-century theologian Anselm. Perhaps its most popular expression today can be found in the modern hymn In Christ Alone by Stuart Townend and Keith Getty: "Till on that cross as Jesus died/the wrath of God was satisfied." Concerned that the line promotes an errant "view that the cross is primarily about God's need to assuage God's anger," a Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) hymnal committee asked to change the lyrics to say, "Till on that cross as Jesus died/the love of God was magnified." Once Getty and Townend rejected the edit and the Presbyterians dropped the hymn from consideration, outlets such as USA TodayThe Washington Post, and The Economist picked up on this debate that cuts to the core of the good news about Jesus. You don't often see such an important theological debate hit popular media, but hymns and praise songs do more than biblical commentaries to catechize Christians.

mark driscoll strange fire2. Strange Fire book, conference force evangelicals to pick sides.

We're living in perhaps the most dramatic global expansion of Christianity in history. Yet many evangelicals often have little idea about what Pentecostals and charismatics believe. Longtime charismatic critic John MacArthur's new book Strange Fire forces evangelicals off the fence and demands they pick a side: you either see this growth as the work of God or Satan. He contends that if you're cautiously open to the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, then you implicitly endorse common Pentecostal malpractices, such as the prosperity gospel. Already MacArthur has emboldened cessationist allies even as critics pick apart his biblical arguments. When self-described "charismatic with a seat belt" Mark Driscoll showed up uninvited at MacArthur's Strange Fire conference, social media documented this heavyweight clash in real time. That odd encounter produced more heat than light, but MacArthur's influence will ensure that none of us can remain agnostic to the purpose and practice of the charismatic gifts.

1. Pope Francis makes fast friends.

With Billy Graham nearing the end of his life, only one church leader can compel the world's attention. Pope Francis assumed leadership of the Roman Catholic Church under peculiar circumstances, and he has captivated attention ever since. It may not be surprising that Pope Francis was named Time magazine's person of the year when you consider that his competition included the aforementioned Bashar Assad and Miley Cyrus. But when you learn The Advocate, a gay magazine, also awarded him the same recognition, you start to wonder what the world sees in him. When he says "I am a sinner," do they see humble confession or tolerant surrender? When he says "proselytism is solemn nonsense," do they see careful differentiation between forced conversions and the gospel call to repentance and faith, or do they see an ally in the effort to privatize religion? When Time first congratulated Pope Francis as person of the year, the editors credited him for his "rejection of church dogma." But they failed to point to one church teaching he had rejected. Wishful thinking, perhaps?

The world will see what they want in the church, whether for good or ill. And evangelicals will rightly reject Pope Francis's claim to the keys, but we can't help watch how the world responds to him for lessons we can learn and implement. May the Lord give us compassionate, humble spirits and open a door for us to proclaim good news of salvation that comes by faith alone.

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Remember, if you want to learn more about why I included these theology stories and ranked them in this particular order, you can download my interview with Mark Mellinger.

Gladwell on Power and the Weapons of the Spirit

As Son of God from before the beginning of time, Jesus wielded unfathomable power. Yet he was born in a lowly manger and learned the carpentry trade in a backwater town. According to the apostle Paul, "by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him" (Col. 1:16). Yet when confronted by his betrayer, he put up no fight. He told the apostle Peter, "For all who take the sword will perish by the sword" (Matt. 26:52).

Malcolm GladwellPower, then, is not always as it seems. That's the point Malcolm Gladwell and I recently discussed with regard to his new book, David and Goliath: Underdogs, Misfits, and the Art of Battling GiantsI spoke with the bestselling author and staff writer for The New Yorker about why he decided to dig deeper into the famous story of David and Goliath.

"There are real limits to what evil and misfortune can accomplish," he writes in the book, which I have also reviewed. "You see the giant and the shepherd in the Valley of Elah and your eye is drawn to the man with the sword and shield and the glittering armor. But so much of what is beautiful and valuable in the world comes from the shepherd, who has more strength and purpose than we ever imagine" (274-275).

We discussed several fascinating stories, including the Huguenots in south-central France who harbored Jews during World War II. They defied the French police working for the Nazi occupiers and said, "We make no distinction between Jews and non-Jews. It is contrary to the gospel teaching." He told the back story of how he got to know Wilma Derksen, a Mennonite woman who found the courage to forgive the man who tortured and murdered her daughter. In the process we observed the striking difference between law and grace in responses to suffering.

Finally, I urge you to listen for our conversation about how authorities with power and privilege game the system against the weak. As you'll hear from the 30-minute interview, Christians today can learn a few tricks from the civil-rights marches 50 years ago in Birmingham, Alabama. Indeed, the weapons of the Spirit triumph over the ways of the world.

You can stream the full interview below, download the mp3, or subscribe to TGC's podcast on iTunes or through your other mobile devices.

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Flight or Fright? How to Redeem Halloween

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Every year Halloween seems to grow in popularity. Bigger decorations, better candy, badder costumes. And every year Christians wonder how to handle this strange event that brings neighbors together over ghoulish scenes of death and unhealthy piles of chocolate. Should we steer death-defying teenagers toward Hell Houses to consider the eternal state of their souls? Should we lock ourselves in our living rooms with the lights turned off? Or should we embrace the fun and enjoy the company of neighbors who only emerge this one holiday each year? In short, do we flee from Halloween or seek to redeem the day?

Pumpkin-Cross-CarvedIn the latest Going Deeper with TGC podcast, Mark Mellinger and I talk with Timothy George, author of the recent article "The Gospel of Ghoul" and founding dean of Beeson Divinity School in Birmingham, Alabama. We discussed our culture's fascination with zombies and vampires and the meaning of All Saints Day. He also explained how we should we can "tweak the Devil" on Halloween. Listen to the whole discussion for his answer to questions of which Protestant reformer he'd want to dress up as and whether we speak too much, not enough, or just the right amount about hell.

As the podcast continues, The Gospel Project managing editor Trevin Wax talks with Afshin Ziafat, lead pastor of Providence Church in Frisco, Texas, about enduring trials and facing genuine persecution. He shares his testimony about how God bore him through trials while growing up in a Muslim home and standing with Jesus against his father.

You can stream the full podcast below, download the mp3, or subscribe to Going Deeper with TGC on iTunes or through your other mobile devices.

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How to Prepare for Pain and Suffering

You wouldn't want someone to hand you this book, because it probably means you're enduring hardship and suffering. But you need to read this book, preferably before the hardship and suffering inevitably comes.

Walking with God through Pain and SufferingWe in the West somehow think if we're lucky we'll avoid the pain we see around us. So we cross our fingers and hope for the best. Of course no one can avoid death and aging, but we put off such thoughts until absolutely necessary and sometimes not until it's too late.

Tim Keller's new book, Walking with God through Pain and Suffering, forces us to confront life as it really is and not as our Western fairy tales suggest. The first part of the book considers the problem of evil, the way various cultures handle suffering, why Christianity prevailed in the Roman world, and the inability of secular views to give purpose to life. The second part digs deeper into Christian theology to explore various kinds of suffering in light of the sovereignty and suffering of God. And the final section helps believers walk, weep, trust, pray, think, thank, love, and hope through trials.

I talked with Keller, vice president of The Gospel Coalition, about the inspiring stories interspersed through the book, Dostoevsky's answer to the problem of evil, the need to train our minds with the gospel to prepare for suffering, and much more.

Download the interview or stream the audio below. And be sure to subscribe to our iTunes podcast for fresh daily content including interviews, sermons, lectures, and more.

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Announcing TGC's Live Worship Album featuring Keith and Kristyn Getty

This past spring, some 5,000 people from 49 states and 41 countries streamed to Orlando for our 2013 National Conference. Through plenary talks and workshops, focus gatherings and auxiliary events, we enjoyed five days of contemplating and celebrating God's stunning grace toward us in Jesus.

The corporate response in music, led by world-renowned artists Keith and Kristyn Getty, was recorded live and is now available as a 17-song album. From upbeat sounds of praise and adoration, to moments of contemplation and anthems of dedication, Keith & Kristyn Getty: Modern and Traditional Hymns (Live at The Gospel Coalition) is not only a reflection of the conference but a tool for believers and churches everywhere. The album includes such modern hymns as "In Christ Alone" and "Christ Is Risen, He Is Risen Indeed" as well as the extraordinary sound of the entire conference singing the beloved traditional hymn, "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty!"

"The 2013 National Conference blended the spoken Word and the sung Word in an unforgettable way," TGC co-founder Tim Keller reflected. "Substantive expositions of the biblical text were interwoven with the Gettys' theologically rich worship hymns. Together they truly did 'tune our hearts to sing his grace.'"

Thanks to our friends at Getty Music, this historic worship album is now available for purchase. As you listen, may you be freshly amazed by the love—relentless, covenantal, bloody love—of our great Savior and King.

To Ruin Sports, Idolize Them

MTV no longer plays music videos. The History Channel no longer discusses history. Before long ESPN may no longer show sports highlights. The so-called worldwide leader in sports will feature nothing but reports from courtrooms and press conferences. Former athletes will sit around tables and parse the latest PR spin for suspended, arrested, and otherwise disgraced players. And we'll wonder why we ever cared so much about the games that made them rich.

Yesterday Major League Baseball cited "social responsibility" while finally cracking down on the drug scandal that has enveloped the storied sport for much of the last two decades. Commissioner Bud Selig handed down severe suspensions for 13 players, chiefly New York Yankees superstar Alex Rodriguez, who would miss the remainder of this season and all of the next. But the talking heads at SportsCenter chattered about more than the long fall of the aging ARod. They also wondered whether college football's best player would be suspended for his sophomore season. According to reports, brash Texas A&M quarterback Johnny Manziel may have demanded payment for his autograph, an obvious no-no in supposedly amateur athletics. So yesterday was a big day in the world of sports journalism. And a horrible day for sports.

Writer and athlete Ted Kluck understands the consequences of treating a good thing like sports as an ultimate thing. Kluck, author of the new book Robert Griffin III: Athlete, Leader, Believer, is himself an intense competitor who wants his children to learn the best lessons of sports. But he also recognizes when he cares too much and needs to apologize to his children for not setting a godly example. Kluck joined Mark Mellinger and me for a special edition of Going Deeper with TGC, the podcast of The Gospel Coalition. We asked him why baseball decided now to crack down on this kind of cheating when athletes have always tried to gain illegal advantages over their opponents. We asked him how he would explain morality to athletes and announcers fumbling to explain what's wrong with breaking the rules. We also asked him why baseball punished one of its all-time greats when football celebrates drug-aided athletes as they deliver concussion-inducing blows on each other.

Listen to the complete 25-minute podcast to hear how Kluck would share the gospel with athletes such as Rodriguez and Manziel who have been worshiped by the same media and fans who now gloat over their disgrace. And hear how he answers his son during NFL games when he asks whether each player uses steroids.

Download the podcast or stream the audio below. And be sure to subscribe to our iTunes podcast for fresh daily content including interviews, sermons, lectures, and more.

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The Gospel Coalition: Where We've Been, Where We're Going

From a Manhattan sidewalk cafe in 2002 to a Pastors' Colloquium in 2004 to the first National Conference in 2007, The Gospel Coalition's beginnings make for an interesting story. In this ten-minute video, co-founders Don Carson and Tim Keller join executive director Ben Peays to reminisce about how TGC came about, where we've been, and where in God's mercy we hope to go.

It all began, Carson reflects, with the aim of helping to "restore the center of historic, confessional Christianity" in the broadly Reformed heritage. Officially constituted with a Council and Foundation Documents around the time of the 2007 National Conference, TGC has since seen the birth of a website with about 4 million monthly pageviews, more than a dozen Regional Chapters, a biennial Women's Conference, and an International Outreach initiative dedicated to relieving theological famine around the globe.

"We were initially thinking more in terms of conferences than of the web," Keller admits. "It seems we've created a space that's made people think, 'This is broad enough and yet focused enough that I can really learn from this group.'"

Regarding TGC's international vision, Carson explains, "We've been clear from the beginning that we don't want [overseas groups] to be American-controlled." Instead of an "American hegemony that's some sort of new worldwide mission," the hope is simply to engender "strategic and mutually encouraging" fellowships around the world. As Keller remarks, it's vital for such TGC-inspired partnerships to be and remain indigenous.

"We certainly make our share of mistakes," Peays acknowledges, "but we're grateful to God for where we are now, and we hope to honor him going forward." And, Lord willing, Carson adds, "This is only the beginning." May God grant us strength, humility, and wisdom to equip and encourage his saints in the days to come, to the praise of his glorious grace.

What Is the History and Future of TGC? from The Gospel Coalition on Vimeo.

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You can also download or stream the audio below. And be sure to subscribe to our iTunes podcast for fresh daily content including interviews, sermons, lectures, and more.

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Out of the Rubble, Hope for Revival

Before long another natural or man-made disaster will dominate cable news. After the latest Moore we forget the last Joplin, after the latest Newtown we forget the last Aurora. Though we'll soon forget about those still suffering, we'll probably long remember the eruption of anger over attempts to reckon with disaster according to God's Word. But as the online debate continues, Christians in the Oklahoma City area will need both patient endurance to serve the homeless and also steadfast hope to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ amid the destruction.

In the latest edition of Going Deeper with TGC, Sam Storms talks with Mark Mellinger and me about the ongoing Moore recovery, ways Christians can still help, and his hope that out of the rubble will come spiritual revival. Storms, lead pastor for preaching and vision at Bridgeway Church in Oklahoma City, discusses the twin truths we struggle to reconcile: alongside unimaginable grief and sorrow, we have unshakable confidence in God's goodness and sovereignty.

As Storms testifies through the story of an Acts 29 pastor who lost his home in the Moore tornado, such tragedies reveal where our faith is fixed. Only in the arms of our heavenly Father are we truly safe. Romans 8 is not just words. Storms asks that we join him in praying for his neighbors that they would say, "I have to have something more solid and stable to hang on to. I need the truth of who God is, and that no matter what comes sweeping down the plains, nothing is going to separate me from the love of God in Christ."

As the podcast continues, The Gospel Project managing editor Trevin Wax talks with Afshin Ziafat, lead pastor of Providence Church in Frisco, Texas, about being a faithful shepherd who leads by example. But as Ziafat explains, such faithful shepherding requires hard decisions, such as telling an elder he is not qualified to serve and telling a man he cannot remarry after divorcing his wife. As the podcast concludes, Mark and I talk about the dozens of interviews he recorded at TGC13 and the archive of conference talks recently released.

You can stream the full podcast below, download the mp3, or subscribe to Going Deeper with TGC on iTunes or through your other mobile devices.

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