Comments on: Why "Limited" and "Unlimited" Atonement Debates Miss the Point http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point Kingdom People - Living on Earth as Citizens of Heaven Thu, 17 May 2012 00:58:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Gordon http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-421 Gordon Wed, 27 Apr 2011 22:17:13 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-421 I think i see what you are saying. But Calvinism is a Soteriological idea. Therefore Even if the whole creation is in focus the issue has to deal with the extent of the Atonement regarding individual salvation. The whole cannot be understood aside from its parts. Therefore it is important to see the coherence and flow of All the Doctrines of Grace. Unconditional Election is geared to individuals and so particular redemption is an automatic outflow from it. I think i see what you are saying. But Calvinism is a Soteriological idea. Therefore Even if the whole creation is in focus the issue has to deal with the extent of the Atonement regarding individual salvation. The whole cannot be understood aside from its parts.

Therefore it is important to see the coherence and flow of All the Doctrines of Grace. Unconditional Election is geared to individuals and so particular redemption is an automatic outflow from it.

]]> By: Brian Childers http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-420 Brian Childers Fri, 15 Apr 2011 18:22:20 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-420 If we look at 2 Peter 2:1, we show that Christ died for the false teachers who were denying the Master who bought them. We show that there are heretics doomed to destruction, yet Scripture teaches us "the Master bought them". Limited atonement is also not based on the exegesis of the text of Scripture, but rather on the logical premise that if Christ died for everyone and everyone is not saved, then God's plan is thwarted. Respectfully, -brian If we look at 2 Peter 2:1, we show that Christ died for the false teachers who were denying the Master who bought them. We show that there are heretics doomed to destruction, yet Scripture teaches us “the Master bought them”. Limited atonement is also not based on the exegesis of the text of Scripture, but rather on the logical premise that if Christ died for everyone and everyone is not saved, then God’s plan is thwarted.

Respectfully,

-brian

]]> By: Jonathan http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-419 Jonathan Wed, 09 Feb 2011 12:53:20 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-419 Whoops, didn't realize this was such an old post. My bad. I just saw someone had recently commented on it and thought it was recent. Whoops, didn’t realize this was such an old post. My bad. I just saw someone had recently commented on it and thought it was recent.

]]> By: Jonathan http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-418 Jonathan Wed, 09 Feb 2011 12:52:06 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-418 I have some questions for anyone willing to answer: How do I synthesize the idea that Jesus died instead of me, and the idea that through union to him I died and was raised with him? How can he die for me if I die with him? As for the atonement, is the sacrifice effective immediately upon his death, or do I only enjoy the benefits upon union with him? Lastly, if the atonement was effective immediately, what should we think about Hebrew's view where Christ dies and then enters the heavenly temple (presence of God) to cleanse it with his own blood just like the old tabernacle was cleansed with blood under the old covenant? Would it change the way we discuss atonement language if our overlying motif was the New Covenant? Just things I've been thinking about recently and was wanting some feedback on. Thanks! -jon I have some questions for anyone willing to answer:

How do I synthesize the idea that Jesus died instead of me, and the idea that through union to him I died and was raised with him? How can he die for me if I die with him?

As for the atonement, is the sacrifice effective immediately upon his death, or do I only enjoy the benefits upon union with him?

Lastly, if the atonement was effective immediately, what should we think about Hebrew’s view where Christ dies and then enters the heavenly temple (presence of God) to cleanse it with his own blood just like the old tabernacle was cleansed with blood under the old covenant? Would it change the way we discuss atonement language if our overlying motif was the New Covenant?

Just things I’ve been thinking about recently and was wanting some feedback on. Thanks!

-jon

]]> By: Keith Farmer http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-417 Keith Farmer Tue, 08 Feb 2011 22:00:21 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-417 John 17:6-25 gives us a clear insight to how Jesus viewed His own mission. The glaring question that must be asked and must not be ignored is if Jesus indeed died to satisfy the wrath of God for the entire world then why do we read passages such as: Rev 14:19, Rev 14:20, Rev 19:15, and Rev 19:21? I submit that a Limited/Definite Atonement view is the only view that allows for Jesus to fully and satisfactorily appease the wrath of God for the elect (the ones Jesus referenced in John 17) and still not be contradictory with such passages as I referenced in Revelation where God indeed will pour out His wrath on the earth and humanity. John 17:6-25 gives us a clear insight to how Jesus viewed His own mission.

The glaring question that must be asked and must not be ignored is if Jesus indeed died to satisfy the wrath of God for the entire world then why do we read passages such as: Rev 14:19, Rev 14:20, Rev 19:15, and Rev 19:21?

I submit that a Limited/Definite Atonement view is the only view that allows for Jesus to fully and satisfactorily appease the wrath of God for the elect (the ones Jesus referenced in John 17) and still not be contradictory with such passages as I referenced in Revelation where God indeed will pour out His wrath on the earth and humanity.

]]> By: Dr. James Willingham http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-416 Dr. James Willingham Mon, 07 Feb 2011 17:52:25 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-416 Why in the world did Jesus say to the woman of Canaan, ""I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?"(Mt.15:24) After all, she was not a Jew, and His statement makes it sound like she is not even in the vicinity of his work, His atoning work, if you like. Her response was to fall down before him in worship. Then He says, "it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs."(Mt.15:26) Could it be that the preaching of particular redemption and of human depravity, inability, and even repulsiveness are all needed to produe the humility, the awe, the reverence,the wonder that He should have mercy on any, and then to be overwhelmed with the reality of His having chose to show grace to the sinner who suddenly grasps the reality that God has chosen to show mercy and grace to a criminal undeserving of such? John Newton's hymn, Amazing Grace confounds the whole "God is a good buddy that owes every one a chance even though they have done terrible evils and have a madness within them that is of the very nature of Hell itself!" Why particlar redemption/limited atonement is an invitation of the most intensely evangelistic and invitational kind; it is the paradox designed to win a whole world of sinners and every soul in that world for a thousand generations, whereas general atonement is not of the same nature as that in which the power is in the blood. The old theology is that which produces shock and awe, profound wonder and reverence; it is spine- and soul-tingling, electrifying, dynamic, gripping, attractive, winsome, appealing, the truth of infinite charms. O yes, the woman took what jesus offered and ran with it, finding in the dog, the little dogs, that is, the idea of crumbs which no one would even want the children to touch after they had fallen to the floor, the infinitesimally small crumbs would mre than meet her needs, the highest compliment and honor to Christ and His power. Her reward? What Jesus never said to any of His Apostles, "Great is your faith." He gave her a carte blanche, "whatever you will."(Mt.15:28). The thoughts of the words inspired by omniscience are so deep that even when you think the stream is only 2-3 feet deep, because you can see the grains of san rolling along the bottom, you are in over your head due to the problems of clarity, of seeing depth in another medium, the realm of the Spirit. Why in the world did Jesus say to the woman of Canaan, “”I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?”(Mt.15:24) After all, she was not a Jew, and His statement makes it sound like she is not even in the vicinity of his work, His atoning work, if you like. Her response was to fall down before him in worship. Then He says, “it is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.”(Mt.15:26) Could it be that the preaching of particular redemption and of human depravity, inability, and even repulsiveness are all needed to produe the humility, the awe, the reverence,the wonder that He should have mercy on any, and then to be overwhelmed with the reality of His having chose to show grace to the sinner who suddenly grasps the reality that God has chosen to show mercy and grace to a criminal undeserving of such? John Newton’s hymn, Amazing Grace confounds the whole “God is a good buddy that owes every one a chance even though they have done terrible evils and have a madness within them that is of the very nature of Hell itself!” Why particlar redemption/limited atonement is an invitation of the most intensely evangelistic and invitational kind; it is the paradox designed to win a whole world of sinners and every soul in that world for a thousand generations, whereas general atonement is not of the same nature as that in which the power is in the blood. The old theology is that which produces shock and awe, profound wonder and reverence; it is spine- and soul-tingling, electrifying, dynamic, gripping, attractive, winsome, appealing, the truth of infinite charms. O yes, the woman took what jesus offered and ran with it, finding in the dog, the little dogs, that is, the idea of crumbs which no one would even want the children to touch after they had fallen to the floor, the infinitesimally small crumbs would mre than meet her needs, the highest compliment and honor to Christ and His power. Her reward? What Jesus never said to any of His Apostles, “Great is your faith.” He gave her a carte blanche, “whatever you will.”(Mt.15:28). The thoughts of the words inspired by omniscience are so deep that even when you think the stream is only 2-3 feet deep, because you can see the grains of san rolling along the bottom, you are in over your head due to the problems of clarity, of seeing depth in another medium, the realm of the Spirit.

]]> By: Some Interesting Blog Entries… « Whitewashed Tombs http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-415 Some Interesting Blog Entries… « Whitewashed Tombs Tue, 24 Aug 2010 18:13:50 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-415 [...] of good blog entries concerning the doctrine of limited atonement. The first is by Trevin Wax (http://trevinwax.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/), and the second is by Michael Jenson [...] [...] of good blog entries concerning the doctrine of limited atonement. The first is by Trevin Wax (http://trevinwax.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/), and the second is by Michael Jenson [...]

]]> By: Casey Hough http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-414 Casey Hough Wed, 05 May 2010 14:02:20 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-414 I think that Trevin had a lot of good things to say that will be missed because he chose to say them in the wrong forum. But for what it is worth, I felt like this post was a bit reductionistic, which is ironic since the purpose of it was to expand the question of the atonement past the camps of Calvinism and Arminianism. Also, maybe I am wrong, but the context of 2 Corinthians 5:19 still appears to be dealing with people being reconciled to God. The phrase, "not counting their trespasses against them," suggest that Paul is speaking of "the world" not as a cosmic body but as a collective sum of people from all the world. Similar to his "all people language in 1 Timothy 2 which would represent collective language. As for 1 Timothy 4:10, though predominately translated as “especially those who believe,” it is most likely that this phrase is providing a further definition or identification of that which precedes it and thus should be rendered by such words as "that is." Thus, it is better to understand that the “all people,” for whom God is Savior, are those who believe in him. For more details on this, see Knight in the NIGTC (See also Skeats). Just fallible and errant thoughts to consider as one brother in Christ to another. But for the record, I did enjoy the post ;) I think that Trevin had a lot of good things to say that will be missed because he chose to say them in the wrong forum.

But for what it is worth, I felt like this post was a bit reductionistic, which is ironic since the purpose of it was to expand the question of the atonement past the camps of Calvinism and Arminianism.

Also, maybe I am wrong, but the context of 2 Corinthians 5:19 still appears to be dealing with people being reconciled to God. The phrase, “not counting their trespasses against them,” suggest that Paul is speaking of “the world” not as a cosmic body but as a collective sum of people from all the world. Similar to his “all people language in 1 Timothy 2 which would represent collective language.

As for 1 Timothy 4:10, though predominately translated as “especially those who believe,” it is most likely that this phrase is providing a further definition or identification of that which precedes it and thus should be rendered by such words as “that is.” Thus, it is better to understand that the “all people,” for whom God is Savior, are those who believe in him. For more details on this, see Knight in the NIGTC (See also Skeats).

Just fallible and errant thoughts to consider as one brother in Christ to another. But for the record, I did enjoy the post ;)

]]> By: Jeff Medders http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-413 Jeff Medders Wed, 03 Mar 2010 17:02:58 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-413 Thanks Trevin, this is a very helpful post. We do need to have broader view of all of Christ's purposes in his work. Romans 8 with creation/shalom and his giving of the Holy Spirit, christus victor etc... Wonderful post! Thanks Trevin, this is a very helpful post. We do need to have broader view of all of Christ’s purposes in his work. Romans 8 with creation/shalom and his giving of the Holy Spirit, christus victor etc…

Wonderful post!

]]> By: The Best of Kingdom People: 6-10 « Kingdom People http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-412 The Best of Kingdom People: 6-10 « Kingdom People Thu, 25 Oct 2007 08:45:34 +0000 http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/01/05/why-limited-and-unlimited-atonement-debates-miss-the-point/#comment-412 [...] #6. Why “Limited” and “Unlimited” Atonement Debates Miss the Point [...] [...] #6. Why “Limited” and “Unlimited” Atonement Debates Miss the Point [...]

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