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	<title>Comments on: Conversations with a Catholic 7: Eucharist</title>
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	<description>Kingdom People - Living on Earth as Citizens of Heaven</description>
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		<title>By: Br. Nick</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/06/04/conversations-with-a-catholic-7-eucharist/#comment-827</link>
		<dc:creator>Br. Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 21:00:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think this has been a very interesting discussion.  Your discussion elsewhere on the meeting of Luther and Zwingly to discuss the Lord&#039;s Supper was very helpful.

One point that I want to contribute here is on the topic of Jesus&#039; &quot;physical&quot; presence in the Eucharist.  Trevin you use that word several times but it is not part of the Church&#039;s explanation of the Real Presence.    The Council of Trent said that Jesus is &quot;really, truly, and substantially&quot; present in the Eucharist.  The choice for this wording comes from an attempt to form a coherent explanation of several different facts.
Fact 1: Jesus says that His body and blood are true food and true drink - if He were talking symbolically why use the word &quot;true&quot; and why let so many people misinterpret these words as we see in John 6/
Fact 2: At the Last Supper Jesus take bread and says &quot;This is my body&quot; and takes wine and says &quot;this is my blood&quot;.  It&#039;s the language of &quot;is&quot; which is the language of ontology or being.  Jesus doesn&#039;t say &quot;Here is my body&quot; but &quot;THIS IS my body&quot;
Fact 3: In the writings of the Church Fathers we can see a literal interpretation of these statements.  Augustine says that Jesus held himself in his hands.
Fact 4: At the Last Supper and at Mass the appearance of bread and wine remain even after Jesus or the priest says &quot;This is my body&quot;.

Because the appearance of bread and wine remain we avoid the language of the &quot;physical&quot;.  But what transubstantiation does mean is that you can no longer says that there is bread on the altar.  It may look, smell, and taste like bread but it is Christ Himself.  There is no bread.  That the appearance of bread remains is itself a miracle.  We believe this because Jesus said so as the Tradition teaches and as recorded by Sacred Scripture.  God bless you in your search for His Truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this has been a very interesting discussion.  Your discussion elsewhere on the meeting of Luther and Zwingly to discuss the Lord&#8217;s Supper was very helpful.</p>
<p>One point that I want to contribute here is on the topic of Jesus&#8217; &#8220;physical&#8221; presence in the Eucharist.  Trevin you use that word several times but it is not part of the Church&#8217;s explanation of the Real Presence.    The Council of Trent said that Jesus is &#8220;really, truly, and substantially&#8221; present in the Eucharist.  The choice for this wording comes from an attempt to form a coherent explanation of several different facts.<br />
Fact 1: Jesus says that His body and blood are true food and true drink &#8211; if He were talking symbolically why use the word &#8220;true&#8221; and why let so many people misinterpret these words as we see in John 6/<br />
Fact 2: At the Last Supper Jesus take bread and says &#8220;This is my body&#8221; and takes wine and says &#8220;this is my blood&#8221;.  It&#8217;s the language of &#8220;is&#8221; which is the language of ontology or being.  Jesus doesn&#8217;t say &#8220;Here is my body&#8221; but &#8220;THIS IS my body&#8221;<br />
Fact 3: In the writings of the Church Fathers we can see a literal interpretation of these statements.  Augustine says that Jesus held himself in his hands.<br />
Fact 4: At the Last Supper and at Mass the appearance of bread and wine remain even after Jesus or the priest says &#8220;This is my body&#8221;.</p>
<p>Because the appearance of bread and wine remain we avoid the language of the &#8220;physical&#8221;.  But what transubstantiation does mean is that you can no longer says that there is bread on the altar.  It may look, smell, and taste like bread but it is Christ Himself.  There is no bread.  That the appearance of bread remains is itself a miracle.  We believe this because Jesus said so as the Tradition teaches and as recorded by Sacred Scripture.  God bless you in your search for His Truth.</p>
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		<title>By: Ranee @ Arabian Knits</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/06/04/conversations-with-a-catholic-7-eucharist/#comment-826</link>
		<dc:creator>Ranee @ Arabian Knits</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:04:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/conversations-with-a-catholic-7-eucharist/#comment-826</guid>
		<description>This may have come up in one of your later exchanges, I am reading them in order, but there is another reason to read John 6 literally.  Doors, vines, etc were not specifically prohibited to Jews, while consuming human flesh and any blood at all was.  This alone made His statements &lt;i&gt;require&lt;/i&gt; an explanation if they were symbolic.  Yet, as has been pointed out, Jesus does not  He instead allows people to leave, declares it a hard teaching and asks the apostles if they will leave also.  Then, He later reasserts His claim about His flesh and blood.  The other passages from Paul have already been mentioned, so I won&#039;t belabor the point.

In the interest of full disclosure:  I found your blog via a search on the Saddleback Forum, and your collection helped me a great deal.  My husband and I (and our children) are Catholic, but not Roman Catholic.  We are believers in the Real Presence, which means that if we are wrong, we are in idolatry, so this is a serious issue.  Our understanding of transubstantiation is that a natural element (accident, to describe it like Thomas Aquinas) must give way to the supernatural.  That Jesus&#039; presence forces the natural to give way.  This doesn&#039;t necessarily mean that the molecular level is changed, but that is certainly not impossible.

I appreciate the level of discussion you are having here.  It is respectful, and thoughtful, while not being wishy washy or self-deprecating.  I imagine you may have already discovered Touchstone magazine, but if not, I recommend it to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This may have come up in one of your later exchanges, I am reading them in order, but there is another reason to read John 6 literally.  Doors, vines, etc were not specifically prohibited to Jews, while consuming human flesh and any blood at all was.  This alone made His statements <i>require</i> an explanation if they were symbolic.  Yet, as has been pointed out, Jesus does not  He instead allows people to leave, declares it a hard teaching and asks the apostles if they will leave also.  Then, He later reasserts His claim about His flesh and blood.  The other passages from Paul have already been mentioned, so I won&#8217;t belabor the point.</p>
<p>In the interest of full disclosure:  I found your blog via a search on the Saddleback Forum, and your collection helped me a great deal.  My husband and I (and our children) are Catholic, but not Roman Catholic.  We are believers in the Real Presence, which means that if we are wrong, we are in idolatry, so this is a serious issue.  Our understanding of transubstantiation is that a natural element (accident, to describe it like Thomas Aquinas) must give way to the supernatural.  That Jesus&#8217; presence forces the natural to give way.  This doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean that the molecular level is changed, but that is certainly not impossible.</p>
<p>I appreciate the level of discussion you are having here.  It is respectful, and thoughtful, while not being wishy washy or self-deprecating.  I imagine you may have already discovered Touchstone magazine, but if not, I recommend it to you.</p>
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		<title>By: Conversations with a Catholic 8 - Eucharist Discussion Continues &#171; Kingdom People</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/06/04/conversations-with-a-catholic-7-eucharist/#comment-825</link>
		<dc:creator>Conversations with a Catholic 8 - Eucharist Discussion Continues &#171; Kingdom People</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Sep 2007 19:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/conversations-with-a-catholic-7-eucharist/#comment-825</guid>
		<description>[...] Your agrarian defense is left wanting. Sure, as you&#8217;ve said, dead wheat gives us bread, and one can see from that a similarity to Jesus&#8217; death giving us life, but if you intend to use it as defense of it being as clear symbolically as the &#8220;door&#8221; or &#8220;vine&#8221; stories, I&#8217;ve got to disagree. Jesus is the symbolic door through which we enter eternal life (simple), as opposed to Jesus symbolizes a wheat seed, who died and was made into a food stuff (which symbolizes his teachings, his Spirit, etc.), and we feed on that. I reiterate that it doesn&#8217;t make much sense symbolically. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Your agrarian defense is left wanting. Sure, as you&#8217;ve said, dead wheat gives us bread, and one can see from that a similarity to Jesus&#8217; death giving us life, but if you intend to use it as defense of it being as clear symbolically as the &#8220;door&#8221; or &#8220;vine&#8221; stories, I&#8217;ve got to disagree. Jesus is the symbolic door through which we enter eternal life (simple), as opposed to Jesus symbolizes a wheat seed, who died and was made into a food stuff (which symbolizes his teachings, his Spirit, etc.), and we feed on that. I reiterate that it doesn&#8217;t make much sense symbolically. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/06/04/conversations-with-a-catholic-7-eucharist/#comment-822</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 23:24:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/conversations-with-a-catholic-7-eucharist/#comment-822</guid>
		<description>I might add that it becomes ours in so far as it is the gift of Christ to His Church, which, of course, cannot be divided from each other, the Head and Body form one mystical person as it were (Pope Pius XII Mystical Body of Christ), thus, the Church as she lives in Christ, offers back unto God what God has given unto her to offer.  Matthew Levering&#039;s book on Eucharistic Sacrifice is must reading for an understanding of the Church and her self-reflection on the mystery of the Eucharist.  Luther, sadly, could not but think that the Church taught that the Mass was our good work.  However, there is NOT ONE document in the Deposit of the Faith that teaches, affirms, or proclaims that the Mass is my good work.  It is a good work, if one wants to use that term, only in so far as it is the work of Christ by the Spirit whereby the faithful participate through the priestly ministry of the Church.  Again, though, it needs to be said, that for the Church there is no bifurcation between Christ and His Church (1st Cor 12).  Thus, the work of the Church is the work of Christ in so far as Christ is the Head and the Church is His Body.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I might add that it becomes ours in so far as it is the gift of Christ to His Church, which, of course, cannot be divided from each other, the Head and Body form one mystical person as it were (Pope Pius XII Mystical Body of Christ), thus, the Church as she lives in Christ, offers back unto God what God has given unto her to offer.  Matthew Levering&#8217;s book on Eucharistic Sacrifice is must reading for an understanding of the Church and her self-reflection on the mystery of the Eucharist.  Luther, sadly, could not but think that the Church taught that the Mass was our good work.  However, there is NOT ONE document in the Deposit of the Faith that teaches, affirms, or proclaims that the Mass is my good work.  It is a good work, if one wants to use that term, only in so far as it is the work of Christ by the Spirit whereby the faithful participate through the priestly ministry of the Church.  Again, though, it needs to be said, that for the Church there is no bifurcation between Christ and His Church (1st Cor 12).  Thus, the work of the Church is the work of Christ in so far as Christ is the Head and the Church is His Body.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/06/04/conversations-with-a-catholic-7-eucharist/#comment-824</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 20:22:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/conversations-with-a-catholic-7-eucharist/#comment-824</guid>
		<description>&quot;The real problem is seeing the Eucharist as action that is primarily ours - an offering before God of Christ’s sacrifice.&quot;

The problem with what you write is that the Church does not teach that the Eucharist is an action that is primarily ours.  In fact, the Church does not teach that the Eucharist sacrifice is any way ours!!!  It alone is the work of God, who through His Spirit (the Epliclesis) in Christ makes this present.  Thus, the priest prays in the concluding doxology (through Him, with Him, and in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit all glory and honor is yours almighty Father).  I encourage you to read the Catechism and its treatment on the Eucharist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The real problem is seeing the Eucharist as action that is primarily ours &#8211; an offering before God of Christ’s sacrifice.&#8221;</p>
<p>The problem with what you write is that the Church does not teach that the Eucharist is an action that is primarily ours.  In fact, the Church does not teach that the Eucharist sacrifice is any way ours!!!  It alone is the work of God, who through His Spirit (the Epliclesis) in Christ makes this present.  Thus, the priest prays in the concluding doxology (through Him, with Him, and in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit all glory and honor is yours almighty Father).  I encourage you to read the Catechism and its treatment on the Eucharist.</p>
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		<title>By: The Boar&#8217;s Head Tavern &#187;</title>
		<link>http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/06/04/conversations-with-a-catholic-7-eucharist/#comment-823</link>
		<dc:creator>The Boar&#8217;s Head Tavern &#187;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 13:50:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://trevinwax.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/conversations-with-a-catholic-7-eucharist/#comment-823</guid>
		<description>[...] friend Trevin Wax has been publishing a series of discussions with a Roman Catholic friend. Here&#8217;s the discussion on the Lord&#8217;s Supper. Trevin seems attracted to the Calvinistic interpretation of the supper, which Pirate helped me [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] friend Trevin Wax has been publishing a series of discussions with a Roman Catholic friend. Here&#8217;s the discussion on the Lord&#8217;s Supper. Trevin seems attracted to the Calvinistic interpretation of the supper, which Pirate helped me [...]</p>
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