Comments on: Future of Justification 13: Justification by Works http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/12/13/future-of-justification-13-justification-by-works/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=future-of-justification-13-justification-by-works Kingdom People - Living on Earth as Citizens of Heaven Tue, 22 May 2012 18:06:50 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Aaron http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/12/13/future-of-justification-13-justification-by-works/#comment-1433 Aaron Tue, 30 Aug 2011 02:43:14 +0000 http://trevinwax.com/2007/12/13/future-of-justification-13-justification-by-works/#comment-1433 There is an elephant in the room in these discussions. In Roman's chapter 4, where Piper believes Paul preaches Sola Fide, Paul gives no mention of heaven or hell or final judgement or eternal life. What he talks about is "The Promise of Abraham" as it relates to being identified as one of God's Chosen People and "Circumcision". This is the elephant that Wright points to that Piper can't seem to see for some reason. Read Romans 4:13 and go from there. It's not ironic that the same elephant appears in Galatians 3 (Read Galations 3:28) and Ephesians 2 (Read Ephesians 2:13), where Piper believe Paul teaches Sola Fide. Again, a big elephant appears where there is no mention of heaven or hell or final judgement or eternal life. Just a lot of talk about circumcision and the Promise of Abraham and Gentiles and Jews now being united into one body of Chosen People by faith apart from works. HMMM ... is it really that difficult??? There is an elephant in the room in these discussions. In Roman’s chapter 4, where Piper believes Paul preaches Sola Fide, Paul gives no mention of heaven or hell or final judgement or eternal life. What he talks about is “The Promise of Abraham” as it relates to being identified as one of God’s Chosen People and “Circumcision”. This is the elephant that Wright points to that Piper can’t seem to see for some reason. Read Romans 4:13 and go from there.

It’s not ironic that the same elephant appears in Galatians 3 (Read Galations 3:28) and Ephesians 2 (Read Ephesians 2:13), where Piper believe Paul teaches Sola Fide. Again, a big elephant appears where there is no mention of heaven or hell or final judgement or eternal life. Just a lot of talk about circumcision and the Promise of Abraham and Gentiles and Jews now being united into one body of Chosen People by faith apart from works.

HMMM … is it really that difficult???

]]> By: Nick http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/12/13/future-of-justification-13-justification-by-works/#comment-1432 Nick Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:28:23 +0000 http://trevinwax.com/2007/12/13/future-of-justification-13-justification-by-works/#comment-1432 Though I think that Wright wouldn't use the word merit, I'm guessing that he is saying that our lives (works included) will be judged one day. And if we're judged righteous (justified), it will only be because of God's work within and through us (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). But the judgment will be of us...or at least I think that's part of what he's saying However, going into detail about what 'final justification' hasn't been a focus of his, and I think it's fine to say that he's been unclear on the matter (unless his book on virtue has shed some light on this). Though I think that Wright wouldn’t use the word merit, I’m guessing that he is saying that our lives (works included) will be judged one day. And if we’re judged righteous (justified), it will only be because of God’s work within and through us (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). But the judgment will be of us…or at least I think that’s part of what he’s saying

However, going into detail about what ‘final justification’ hasn’t been a focus of his, and I think it’s fine to say that he’s been unclear on the matter (unless his book on virtue has shed some light on this).

]]> By: daniel http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/12/13/future-of-justification-13-justification-by-works/#comment-1431 daniel Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:16:49 +0000 http://trevinwax.com/2007/12/13/future-of-justification-13-justification-by-works/#comment-1431 For what it's worth, I'm with you Brian. The idea that good deeds earns one a new resurrection-body and a place in the kingdom is not the same as the idea that the good deeds done by a believer will be judged on the last day. From what I can see, Wright does not indicate that one's good deeds earn God's gift of resurrection and everlasting life (aka salvation). Instead, he seems to me to indicate that one's good deeds are evaluated by God in the "final assize". I believe the relevant text from Paul is in 1 Corinthians 3 where Paul talks about Christians building upon the foundation of Christ and having their works tested by fire with some folks suffering some kind of loss and others not. Both groups of Christians receive the verdict "righteous" because both are in Christ by faith, but one receives a "reward" while the other one doesn't. Perhaps I've not understood Wright correctly. Don't ask me what that reward is...I don't know. For what it’s worth, I’m with you Brian.

The idea that good deeds earns one a new resurrection-body and a place in the kingdom is not the same as the idea that the good deeds done by a believer will be judged on the last day.

From what I can see, Wright does not indicate that one’s good deeds earn God’s gift of resurrection and everlasting life (aka salvation). Instead, he seems to me to indicate that one’s good deeds are evaluated by God in the “final assize”. I believe the relevant text from Paul is in 1 Corinthians 3 where Paul talks about Christians building upon the foundation of Christ and having their works tested by fire with some folks suffering some kind of loss and others not. Both groups of Christians receive the verdict “righteous” because both are in Christ by faith, but one receives a “reward” while the other one doesn’t.

Perhaps I’ve not understood Wright correctly.

Don’t ask me what that reward is…I don’t know.

]]> By: Ted Hans http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/12/13/future-of-justification-13-justification-by-works/#comment-1430 Ted Hans Fri, 16 Jan 2009 15:18:09 +0000 http://trevinwax.com/2007/12/13/future-of-justification-13-justification-by-works/#comment-1430 well said by aworthydiscussion-i must join in saying i don't agree with you Brian! well said by aworthydiscussion-i must join in saying i don’t agree with you Brian!

]]> By: aworthydiscussion http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/12/13/future-of-justification-13-justification-by-works/#comment-1429 aworthydiscussion Fri, 03 Oct 2008 03:37:47 +0000 http://trevinwax.com/2007/12/13/future-of-justification-13-justification-by-works/#comment-1429 Hmmm don't agree with you their Brian - thats what is commonly know as semi-pelagianism and seems to be an official doctrine of the Catholic Church. (Salvation is by Grace + Works). Those of the reformed faith see Works as evidence of salvation, Evidence of Regeneration etc. Hmmm don’t agree with you their Brian – thats what is commonly know as semi-pelagianism and seems to be an official doctrine of the Catholic Church. (Salvation is by Grace + Works). Those of the reformed faith see Works as evidence of salvation, Evidence of Regeneration etc.

]]> By: Brian http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2007/12/13/future-of-justification-13-justification-by-works/#comment-1428 Brian Sat, 15 Dec 2007 17:15:52 +0000 http://trevinwax.com/2007/12/13/future-of-justification-13-justification-by-works/#comment-1428 ["In Chapter 7, John Piper points out N.T. Wright’s words on future justification. Piper’s main contention with Wright in this chapter is that Wright’s theology is unclear as to whether our good works are meritorious and serve as the basis for our justification on the Last Day."] In every instance in which Jesus speaks of the afterlife and judgement, his illustrations are based on our deeds (Matt 25 sheep & goats - Matt 19 young rich man - John 15 vine & branches - and many more). Of course, strict adherence to "justification by works" is pelagianism, and has been condemned by both Protestatism and the Catholic Church. Many point to Abraham's faith as justifying in Romans 4, but overlook (or explain away) his deeds in Hebrews 11 (leaving his homeland for the promised land) and James 2 (offering Isaac). Biblical evidence stongly supports justification by faith and works - inseparable, and both, gifts of grace. ["In Chapter 7, John Piper points out N.T. Wright’s words on future justification. Piper’s main contention with Wright in this chapter is that Wright’s theology is unclear as to whether our good works are meritorious and serve as the basis for our justification on the Last Day."]
In every instance in which Jesus speaks of the afterlife and judgement, his illustrations are based on our deeds (Matt 25 sheep & goats – Matt 19 young rich man – John 15 vine & branches – and many more). Of course, strict adherence to “justification by works” is pelagianism, and has been condemned by both Protestatism and the Catholic Church. Many point to Abraham’s faith as justifying in Romans 4, but overlook (or explain away) his deeds in Hebrews 11 (leaving his homeland for the promised land) and James 2 (offering Isaac). Biblical evidence stongly supports justification by faith and works – inseparable, and both, gifts of grace.

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