Comments on: Jim Belcher Responds to Critics of "Deep Church" http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2009/11/04/jim-belcher-responds-to-critics-of-deep-church/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=jim-belcher-responds-to-critics-of-deep-church Kingdom People - Living on Earth as Citizens of Heaven Thu, 24 May 2012 20:05:17 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Trevin Wax http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2009/11/04/jim-belcher-responds-to-critics-of-deep-church/#comment-5471 Trevin Wax Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:45:48 +0000 http://trevinwax.com/?p=4516#comment-5471 That's funny, Eric. I hadn't thought of the link between the two. I think Jim does a good job of responding to this critique. That’s funny, Eric.

I hadn’t thought of the link between the two. I think Jim does a good job of responding to this critique.

]]> By: Eric Peterson http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2009/11/04/jim-belcher-responds-to-critics-of-deep-church/#comment-5470 Eric Peterson Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:32:38 +0000 http://trevinwax.com/?p=4516#comment-5470 I like the interview as an illustration of your Nov 3 post on responding to criticism. I like the interview as an illustration of your Nov 3 post on responding to criticism.

]]> By: don bryant http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2009/11/04/jim-belcher-responds-to-critics-of-deep-church/#comment-5469 don bryant Thu, 05 Nov 2009 12:42:55 +0000 http://trevinwax.com/?p=4516#comment-5469 The seriously reformed people strike again - and I'm reformed!!! If people are thinking, wondering, working, creating, the reformed show up and bulldoze. I seriously don't mean to sound mean. But as soon as your book appeared I was waiting for the kickback. They just cannot see the middle ground and bring an epistemological humility to the table. I am a graduate of Westminster Seminary and saw and felt the energy of their war against the church rather than seeking places where the faith streams from different approaches can intersect even with healthy critiques. They are the Jesuits of the Protestant church. The seriously reformed people strike again – and I’m reformed!!! If people are thinking, wondering, working, creating, the reformed show up and bulldoze. I seriously don’t mean to sound mean. But as soon as your book appeared I was waiting for the kickback. They just cannot see the middle ground and bring an epistemological humility to the table. I am a graduate of Westminster Seminary and saw and felt the energy of their war against the church rather than seeking places where the faith streams from different approaches can intersect even with healthy critiques. They are the Jesuits of the Protestant church.

]]> By: Dan S. http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2009/11/04/jim-belcher-responds-to-critics-of-deep-church/#comment-5468 Dan S. Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:59:11 +0000 http://trevinwax.com/?p=4516#comment-5468 The shortcomings of the emerging movement have been well documented, but what sets Deep Church apart from other critiques it its steadfast adherence to a civil and respectful tone. Jim captures the essence of this when he says, "I think Christian love and civility calls us to be good listeners first, even when we disagree. It also calls us to represent the others argument in a way that they would recognize." I just finished Deep Church a few weeks ago and found it to be the most thoughtful and compelling critique of the emerging church published to date, precisely because Jim represents the opposing viewpoint in ways they would recognize. In short, it's hard to refute a good listener. This book should be required reading for anyone wanting to thoughtfully engage the ideas of the emerging movement with convincing response. The shortcomings of the emerging movement have been well documented, but what sets Deep Church apart from other critiques it its steadfast adherence to a civil and respectful tone.

Jim captures the essence of this when he says, “I think Christian love and civility calls us to be good listeners first, even when we disagree. It also calls us to represent the others argument in a way that they would recognize.”

I just finished Deep Church a few weeks ago and found it to be the most thoughtful and compelling critique of the emerging church published to date, precisely because Jim represents the opposing viewpoint in ways they would recognize. In short, it’s hard to refute a good listener.

This book should be required reading for anyone wanting to thoughtfully engage the ideas of the emerging movement with convincing response.

]]> By: Sam Haist http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2009/11/04/jim-belcher-responds-to-critics-of-deep-church/#comment-5467 Sam Haist Wed, 04 Nov 2009 23:57:31 +0000 http://trevinwax.com/?p=4516#comment-5467 Seeking Disciple, I think there is some of that happening here, but there are some pretty significant differences between the Princeton/Westminster split and the traditionalist/emerging situation. As people have said, there is a pretty broad theological spectrum within the emerging camp itself and it would be wrong to lump them into a unified group. For example, Dan Kimball generally holds to traditional evangelical doctrine while Brian McLaren does not. They both express concerns that are common to the emerging camp, but it would be inaccurate to say they're on the same theological team. Peace, Sam Seeking Disciple,

I think there is some of that happening here, but there are some pretty significant differences between the Princeton/Westminster split and the traditionalist/emerging situation. As people have said, there is a pretty broad theological spectrum within the emerging camp itself and it would be wrong to lump them into a unified group. For example, Dan Kimball generally holds to traditional evangelical doctrine while Brian McLaren does not. They both express concerns that are common to the emerging camp, but it would be inaccurate to say they’re on the same theological team.

Peace,
Sam

]]> By: Seeking Disciple http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2009/11/04/jim-belcher-responds-to-critics-of-deep-church/#comment-5466 Seeking Disciple Wed, 04 Nov 2009 21:44:33 +0000 http://trevinwax.com/?p=4516#comment-5466 Perhaps I am wrong to hold to this but I see the debate over the emergent and evangelical churches much in the same historical light as the battle at the turn of the 20th century between conservatives and moderates/liberals in the Presbyterian church with J. Gresham Machen leading the conservatives. I, like Machen, strongly feel the emergents (liberals) are wrong on many issues and that now is not the time for the evangelicals to cozy up to the emegents but to do as Machen did with Princeton Seminary and abandon them. Let them have their books, their colleges, their churches but preach and write against them. In the end history shows that God and His truth always win. Machen and Westminister Seminary live on and the liberal branch of the Presbyterian Church (PCUSA) continues to decline along with Princeton. God will always win and we must be on His side. Perhaps I am wrong to hold to this but I see the debate over the emergent and evangelical churches much in the same historical light as the battle at the turn of the 20th century between conservatives and moderates/liberals in the Presbyterian church with J. Gresham Machen leading the conservatives. I, like Machen, strongly feel the emergents (liberals) are wrong on many issues and that now is not the time for the evangelicals to cozy up to the emegents but to do as Machen did with Princeton Seminary and abandon them. Let them have their books, their colleges, their churches but preach and write against them.

In the end history shows that God and His truth always win. Machen and Westminister Seminary live on and the liberal branch of the Presbyterian Church (PCUSA) continues to decline along with Princeton. God will always win and we must be on His side.

]]> By: Trevin Wax http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2009/11/04/jim-belcher-responds-to-critics-of-deep-church/#comment-5465 Trevin Wax Wed, 04 Nov 2009 20:56:39 +0000 http://trevinwax.com/?p=4516#comment-5465 JT, That's a question I would ask too. It's not a matter of honesty. It's a matter of definition. What does Brian mean when he says "penal atonement." According to Scot McKnight (see CT article from awhile back), "Girard said something important about the Cross; so does McLaren. But they aren't enough." JT,

That’s a question I would ask too. It’s not a matter of honesty. It’s a matter of definition. What does Brian mean when he says “penal atonement.” According to Scot McKnight (see CT article from awhile back), “Girard said something important about the Cross; so does McLaren. But they aren’t enough.”

]]> By: Justin Taylor http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2009/11/04/jim-belcher-responds-to-critics-of-deep-church/#comment-5464 Justin Taylor Wed, 04 Nov 2009 20:52:41 +0000 http://trevinwax.com/?p=4516#comment-5464 I think this is fairly troubling: <i>When I asked [Brian McLaren] in person if he believed in penal atonement he said that he did. So I take him at his word.</i> This frames it in terms of honesty; but don't we need to first press through for the definitions rather than being satisfied that someone verbally assents to the label? JT I think this is fairly troubling:

When I asked [Brian McLaren] in person if he believed in penal atonement he said that he did. So I take him at his word.

This frames it in terms of honesty; but don’t we need to first press through for the definitions rather than being satisfied that someone verbally assents to the label?

JT

]]> By: Brian Kiley http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2009/11/04/jim-belcher-responds-to-critics-of-deep-church/#comment-5463 Brian Kiley Wed, 04 Nov 2009 19:36:42 +0000 http://trevinwax.com/?p=4516#comment-5463 Well done, Jim. Your response was both clear and kind, and, in my opinion, it provided helpful correction to some of the problems in the 9Marks review. In particular, I appreciated you reiterating the point you make in your book about the diversity with the emerging camp. It seems that all too often we can lump our opponents into one group that is conformed to the image of the most extreme among them. That is unfortunate, and that appears to be what happened in the 9Marks review. Those sorts of misunderstandings certainly make a "third way" difficult. Well done, Jim. Your response was both clear and kind, and, in my opinion, it provided helpful correction to some of the problems in the 9Marks review. In particular, I appreciated you reiterating the point you make in your book about the diversity with the emerging camp. It seems that all too often we can lump our opponents into one group that is conformed to the image of the most extreme among them. That is unfortunate, and that appears to be what happened in the 9Marks review. Those sorts of misunderstandings certainly make a “third way” difficult.

]]> By: Jugulum http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/trevinwax/2009/11/04/jim-belcher-responds-to-critics-of-deep-church/#comment-5462 Jugulum Wed, 04 Nov 2009 16:58:11 +0000 http://trevinwax.com/?p=4516#comment-5462 (Whoops. Sorry for the repeated sentence in the second paragraph.) (Whoops. Sorry for the repeated sentence in the second paragraph.)

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