Last night, pastor Mark Driscoll joined Piers Morgan (CNN) to talk about his book, Real Marriage. Anytime Morgan gets a conservative Christian on television, he asks them about homosexuality and appeals to the “inevitability” of same-sex marriage and the need for tolerance.
Here is how Mark answered the question.
(If the video becomes available, I’ll post a link to it.)
MORGAN: Do too many people in the world of religion take it too seriously?
Is that part of the problem?
DRISCOLL: I think we should take Jesus seriously. We should take the Bible seriously. We probably shouldn’t take ourselves nearly as seriously. And that’s how I approach it.
MORGAN: Do you think you’re a tolerant kind of guy?
DRISCOLL: I love people very much and it’s — it’s –
MORGAN: That’s not the same thing.
DRISCOLL: Well, it’s — how do you disagree, sometimes, with people that you love?
That’s a very difficult issue for everybody, but for a pastor in particular, because –
MORGAN: But do you preach tolerance?
DRISCOLL: I’ve preached that we should love our neighbor, that we should accept –
MORGAN: But tolerance — tolerance in particular.
DRISCOLL: Why — you keep hammering it. What — what do you mean by tolerance?
MORGAN: Tolerating people who may have a lifestyle or a belief that you don’t agree with.
DRISCOLL: Yes, we have to. And that’s — when Jesus says love your neighbor, you know, he knows you’re not going to agree with all your neighbors, but he wants you to love them, to seek good for them, to care for them.
MORGAN: What did you make of the whole Kirk Cameron scandal, as it’s become, where he, you know, for 15 minutes here, he sat here espousing what I think he thought were perfectly normal Christian views. But he did it in a way that people saw was really very bigoted toward gays.
What did you think of that?
DRISCOLL: To be honest with you, I haven’t seen the whole thing. So I –
MORGAN: But you know what he said.
DRISCOLL: I saw some of the Twitter and, you know, some of the blogging and stuff. But that’s not always the best snapshot of the full context of the conversation. So I — I don’t know, to be honest with you.
MORGAN: Well, OK.
I mean do you think that homosexuality is a sin?
DRISCOLL: The Bible says, on six occasions –
MORGAN: What do you think?
DRISCOLL: I believe that all sex outside of heterosexual marriage. So, me as a teenager having sex before marriage, that was wrong. People looking at pornography is wrong. Single people having sex is wrong. Homosexuality is wrong.
So there’s a long list of things that the Bible says is wrong.
MORGAN: Right. But given eighty states in America now have legalized gay marriage, that’s fine, right?
DRISCOLL: Well, no. I mean it’s amazing, because there were anti-sodomy laws and anti-fornication laws on the books just a few generations ago.
MORGAN: I mean, no one’s taking much account of the anti- fornication laws, are they?
DRISCOLL: Yes, I do — I don’t want to be the one to enforce those laws or go around –
MORGAN: Right. But my point is, it — you know, the Bible is what it is. It’s an extraordinary book –
MORGAN: — which has governed people’s moral and personal behavior now for –
DRISCOLL: Thousands of years.
MORGAN: — thousands of years.
However, like everything in life, shouldn’t it be dragged kicking and screaming into each modern era, and be adapted, like the American Constitution.
MORGAN: Because, you know, my — my view about this is — is not that I don’t respect Christians or Catholics or whoever who — who absolutely swear by every word in here. It’s just that it’s — I just don’t believe anyone who is genuinely Christian should be spouting bigoted opinions about sections of the community for their sexuality.
DRISCOLL: Well, I think when it comes to the Bible, you’ve got three options. Take it, I believe what it says. Leave it, I don’t believe what it says. Or change it –
MORGAN: Or adapt — or adapt the wording –
DRISCOLL: Which would be the changing it.
MORGAN: — for a modern era.
DRISCOLL: That would be the changing of it. That’s exactly what, for example, Thomas Jefferson did. He literally sat down in the White House with scissors and cut the parts out that he didn’t feel should be in there.
MORGAN: But given that more Americans now believe that gay marriage is acceptable than don’t in this country –
DRISCOLL: Well, we don’t know, because it has — it hasn’t been voted on.
MORGAN: No, but that’s what the latest polls — national polls have said.
DRISCOLL: Well, there’s — there’s the polls, there’s the news, there’s the truth. Until there’s a vote, we really don’t know.
MORGAN: Right. So let’s get to the point where there is one day a vote, right?
MORGAN: If it was in — the majority of Americans believed in it, would you then go along with it?
DRISCOLL: Would I officiate same-sex weddings and things of that nature?
DRISCOLL: I couldn’t, according to conscience, no.
I think the big issue for families in America is really men who walk out on their families. I mean, right now, the average child born to a woman under 30 is born out of wedlock –
MORGAN: Yes, but that’s why –
DRISCOLL: — with no father.
MORGAN: — see, that’s my whole point about this. There are so many feckless guys out there –
DRISCOLL: That’s really –
MORGAN: — right?
MORGAN: Who marry endless times –
DRISCOLL: And just keep having kids.
MORGAN: — they have had –
DRISCOLL: They don’t –
MORGAN: — hundreds of kids.
DRISCOLL: — fund them, they don’t.
MORGAN: They have no responsibility.
DRISCOLL: They don’t support them.
MORGAN: They’re ghastly human beings.
DRISCOLL: That’s the heartbreak.
MORGAN: I don’t hear many pastors, at least Catholic ones or Christian ones, ranting about those guys. All they want to rant about are gay marriage in loving, monogamous relationships with a — with one other person who just want to have the same right to get married as I do as a straight guy.
DRISCOLL: Yes, for me, I hammer those guys like a pinata on Cinco de Mayo. That’s really –
MORGAN: Oh, come on.
DRISCOLL: — like a pinata on Cinco de Mayo. That’s my sweet spot, young guys who don’t get married, they take advantage of women, they sexually assault, they’re addicted to porn, they’re irresponsible. I mean, for the first time in the nation’s history, a woman is more likely to be in church, college and the workforce than a young single man.
And there’s sexual assault, sexual abuse, abortion, children born out of wedlock. Forty percent of kids go to bed without a father. I mean to me, if we’re going to talk about, you know, what’s really harming the country –
MORGAN: You see –
DRISCOLL: — that’s a big issue.
MORGAN: Well, I agree with all that. But I also think what is harming America right now, like many countries around the world, is just a fundamental lack of tolerance and respect for people who may not share your personal values. You know, I just think that pastors like you, funny enough, are in a great position to trail blaze a bit, you know, to take this great book and bring it slightly kicking and screaming into the modern era a bit.
Because eventually America will get to that position anyway, and quite fast.
DRISCOLL: It’s moving fast.
MORGAN: So it’s going to be happen.
DRISCOLL: I’m also a guy, I believe the Bible.
- For the full transcript, click here.