Here is a ten-minute conversation with J.D. Greear about kids’ curriculum, morality, and how gospel-centrality must fuel our passion to be about God’s mission. Best line by far: “When kids are young, you just need to put stuff in them so that when you shake them, they just throw up Bible.”

Trevin Wax: J.D., one of the things I remember reading from your blog… you talked about your frustration with kids’ curriculum.

But really, what you want them to see in the Scriptures is that there’s one story going from start to finish, that it’s filled with characters they need to know about, but that shows them that they should hope, not in their ability to emulate the example, but should hope in the Savior who came for them. And so it’s been a struggle to find curriculum that is robust in its biblical doctrine and knowledge.

When kids are young, you just need to put stuff in them so that when you shake them, they just throw up Bible. That’s probably not a great image, but you know what I mean! You cut them, they bleed God’s Word. You want them understanding from the very beginning that this is about worship and about grace and that what they do for God is a response to what He has done for them.
That’s been tough to find. I’m not trying to put an indictment on all kids’ curriculum by any means, but finding one that captures everything is difficult.

Trevin Wax: I’ve found that too. And as a dad, I’m thinking about my kids in Sunday School learning Bible stories. I want them to know the Bible stories and I want them to know the details, but first and foremost, when we come to a Bible passage, one of the things we’re trying to do with The Gospel Project is we want our writers to first of all ask what does the story tell us about God—who God is, what He is like—and then how does the story point us forward to Jesus Christ. Because here’s what I see is the danger… If all of the stories in the Old Testament especially are all little morality tales where we’re able to have a small application for kids—be nice, be good, share, things like that—we can thoroughly condition our kids by the time they’re sixth graders, going into middle school, that the Bible’s all about them. That’s what they’ve heard week after week after week. Is that why you see that God-centered nature of explaining Bible stories as being important in curriculum?

J.D. Greear: Absolutely. Again, I don’t want to overreact to it. I think David, I think Moses, in some ways, was a great leader. First Corinthians very clearly says that these things were given to us as examples. So there are things that we can learn from them. You know, there are places in the Bible, Ezekiel says, you know, commends three of God’s servants for their steadfastness in the midst of temptation.

So I don’t want to overplay and say there’s nothing we can learn from them, but I also know that Moses wasn’t allowed to go into the promise land. He had a problem with his temper. He had a problem trusting God.

Trevin Wax: I like how you do this. You’re saying we can learn things from moral tales. We can learn courage from David. We can learn faithfulness from Noah (before the scene where he gets drunk, obviously).

J.D. Greear: A lot of times you’ve got a very justified reaction to moralistic things that probably over speaks a little bit. Hopefully what will happen is that we can settle out in the way that the Bible talks about it. You know, I think the hero of every one of our sermons, every one of our lessons ought to be the Hero of the Bible, which is not you for what you do. It is God for what He’s done.

I will continue to learn from various biblical examples. One of the things I tell some of our teachers is—”Don’t try to be more gospel-centered than the Bible.” And don’t play the gospel-centered card on Jesus. You know, He had it down. He knew what it was like to be gospel-centered. You can follow His lead.

Trevin Wax: We’re seeing a movement in the churches of back to the basics, back to what the gospel is, making it explicit and up front in our preaching and teaching. I’m sure some people are watching this thinking, I’m gospel-centered. I give a gospel presentation at the end of every message. What’s the difference in the way we think of that term versus the Plan of Salvation at the end of a message?

J.D. Greear: Charles Spurgeon had a famous statement where he used to say at the end of every sermon, “I plow a trough back to the gospel.” And I always heard that used to explain why no matter what text or what subject the pastor was preaching on, he would tack the Romans Road onto the end of it. That if you would just, you know, receive Jesus into your heart, then you’d be saved. And so he’d be preaching about finances, and he’d be like—but if you need to be saved, this is how you do it.

So no matter what he’s talking about, the only way to become generous, the only way to be a faithful husband, the only way to stay faithful in the Bible or in your witness is in the glorious good news of what God has done for you. So when some people say, “Yeah, I’m gospel-centered,” all they think that means is that the gospel is important to them. And I’m sure the gospel is important to them. I don’t want to lose the gospel. Gospel-centered means that the gospel is not just the entry rite for you into Christianity. It’s not just the diving board off of which you jump into the pool of Christianity. You see that the gospel is the pool itself. The gospel is not just how you begin, it’s how you grow.

J.D. Greear: I’d like to think that begins with how it’s modeled from the pastors who occupy our pulpit. Our teaching team works very hard to be able to impact… it is one of the things we question each other on—What is this pointing me to? Is this pointing me back to the cross or is this pointing me to this?

Our small groups team, you know, has this as a major theme, and they’re writing studies a lot of times that come alongside and they will explore the gospel more thoroughly. Our children’s pastors and student ministers are doing the same thing where they’ll be taking curriculum and weaving more of the richness of the gospel into it.

One other thing I’ll mention is just the role of worship itself. Worship is not the 30-minute warm up to the sermon. Worship essentially is… it’s Word-centered and it’s gospel-rich so that people are coming face-to-face with the rhythms of the gospel as they are seeing the depth and the beauty of it in song and as their hearts are open to the gospel. We’ve done it now where the sermon is always right in the middle of worship because they need to go into that worshiping the cross. I’m in the middle telling them how it all relates. And then they come out of that again worshiping the cross. So I think worship is a key part there too.

Trevin Wax: What role does worship play in connection to mission? You want to see your people motivated to be on mission for God’s kingdom, to be proclaiming the gospel, to be demonstrating the truth of the gospel through the love we have for each other as Christians and then the love we have for the lost people around us, the love we have for our neighbors. How do you connect that worship component with getting people out on mission?

J.D. Greear: John Piper famously said that worship is the goal of missions—is that our desire to see other people worship God and know Him the way we do is the reason we do missions.

Another dimension of that, though, is that worship is not just a goal of missions. Worship is the fuel of missions. Because the only way that I’ll ever be zealous enough to leave father and mother and things that are comfortable to go into the world is when I see how great a treasure Jesus is, that He’s worth more than those things. When I see how much He’s given up to save me, when I see how great His glory is and how much He deserves to be worshiped in the world, that ends up becoming the fuel for mission.

He is the treasure worth leaving the entire field for, Matthew, you know, 13:44. He’s the One, 2 Corinthians 8:9, who became poor for my sake, become rich. You show me somebody that’s worshiping God around the gospel and I’ll show you somebody you don’t need to preach a mission series on in order to motivate into mission. It just comes naturally because they see God is the missionary God that came for them.

Trevin Wax: And that’s what we want. We don’t ultimately want people on mission out of obligation only. We want people on mission because it’s their passion, their heart.

J.D. Greear: Yes.

Almost every day, I get a book in the mail. It’s one of the perks of being a blogger, I suppose… the constant stream of books from publishers who hope you’ll say something on the blog about a new work.

I want to be careful not to focus the majority of my reading on the latest, greatest thing. Better to mix it up. To visit saints from other centuries. To listen to the church fathers preach. To pray with the Puritans and scratch my head with the philosophers.

Occasionally, though, a book grabs my attention and won’t let go. Josh Riebock’s Heroes and Monsters: An Honest Look at the Struggle within All of Us(Baker, 2012) was that kind of book. The look and feel of Josh’s memoir intrigued me. So I started reading and then kept reading and kept reading. I finished the book after a couple of evenings, thoroughly impressed with the artistry with which he crafted the story. Like all good books (and particularly memoirs), some of it bugged me. Some of it moved me. Some of it inspired me. But none of it bored me.

The most fascinating people in the world are the people who are most fascinated by the world, and those same people are the ones who change the world. No one who’s ever influenced this planet has ever done so without being remarkably curious.

Dreams can’t live alone. Sharing our dreams with others may risk destroying them, but without sharing them, we destroy ourselves. Most dreams aren’t murdered. Most dreams commit suicide.

Disappointment knows where we hide. Pain is more reliable than Santa Claus, more determined than a starving thief. It will bang the door, jimmy the lock, crawl through a window, come down the chimney, bypass security; it will find a way in. In this life, there is no such thing as safe. Insulation is an illusion.

Laughter is the evidence that we’re still here, the proof that our tragedies will not define us forever. Laughter is the language of the survivor.

Josh lives in Austin, TX, with his wife, Kristen, and they attend Austin Stone Community Church. I asked Josh some questions about artistry, truth, and beauty.

A memoir isn’t so much the retelling of someone’s life but an interpretation of someone’s life. It’s a writer’s attempt to make sense of their own life and the things they’ve learned in order to help others know themselves and to make sense of their own lives. In some ways, the whole thing is a weird and terrifying stab at intimacy, I suppose.

And yes, I’m a young memoirist (32 actually!). So in that way, I certainly can’t offer people longevity or the wisdom that comes from walking this planet for decades on end the way other memoirs can. But I can offer my life in detail—the beauty and ugliness, the tragedies and triumphs—and do that with honesty and creativity.

As a writer, I want to have the courage to talk about what I see, to embrace the often-paradoxical nature of life rather than gloss over it in order to maintain a false sense of symmetry or tidiness. And that, I believe, is a hallmark (I wouldn’t say it’s the hallmark) of good writing—the willingness to embrace, explore, and speak truthfully about the complexities of what we see, to write in such a way that readers are compelled to do the same.

Josh Riebock: In some ways it’s made writing more difficult. As Christians, we sometimes foster a culture of fear that makes artistic expression very intimidating. Often we spend so much energy critiquing theology and culture, and in doing so we drive creativity underground. People—along with their imaginations and gifts—go into hiding in order to protect themselves rather than being set free to make beautiful things.

But recently, as I’ve been growing through some of my own insecurities and fears, I find that theology, Scripture, and the church are so much of what propels me to write. Scripture talks about God and humanity through poetry, fiction, short story, biography, song, and metaphor. It’s spectacular. It’s off the wall. It’s raw. It’s creative. The writers of Scripture didn’t just care about what they were saying but also about the elegance in how they said it. That releases me to do the same.

And therein lies the incredible challenge and opportunity of writing. I want to write about the things of God using a language and form both accessible and fresh to those who’ve grown tired of the same Christian talk and to those who struggle to engage Scripture in the ways it’s often talked about. I want people to see the artistry of God in every sentence I write.

I suppose sharpening is an attempt to help someone become who God created them to be. And meddling is an attempt to help someone become who I want them to be. One glorifies God. The other glorifies me. One contributes. The other detracts. Like I said, I’m not always sure how to do that. But I will tell you that I want guidance from people, from pastors. As an artist, and a man, I need it.

Pastors can be catalysts for healthy conversation about beauty and truth and what it might look like to do that in a way that brings God joy. That is something I cherish. That sharpens me. I suppose that sharpens all of us.

No one likes to focus on sin, right? We want to be people of grace, people of hope, people of redemption, don’t we? That’s the thing. Without a clear picture of the depth of our sin, grace isn’t as amazing, hope isn’t as solid, and redemption isn’t as powerful.

The so-called “seven deadly sins” – lust, greed, envy, sloth, pride, gluttony, wrath – are not merely things we “do” with our behavior but, as Jesus reveals, conditions of our heart. Even if we don’t act on them, we carry these desires around with us every day. How does the gospel address the needs at the root of these sins and empower us to break patterns of bondage to them? Seven Daily Sins reveals from Scripture how Christians can stop managing their sin and start experiencing freedom in Christ. As Tim Keller tells us, “We are more wicked than we dared believe.” But also, “We are more loved than we dared hope.” There is good news for Christians struggling with these appetites – for that’s what they are, deep down – and it comes by and from the redemptive power of the gospel of Jesus.

Trevin Wax: It’s got to be hard to put together a Bible study resource that is so focused on sin. What were the challenges in writing about these particular (and prevalent) sins?

Luther says it’s the supreme art of the Devil to turn the gospel into law, so even as I was attempting to apply the gospel to these “big sins,” by focusing on them, the shift into law-giving happened so imperceptibly. And the law is helpful and good for what it’s designed to do, so it’s not like there’s no practical instructions or application of the imperatives in the book. I just had to make sure that by leading readers into focusing on their sin, I found a way to stand beside them, to write as humbly as I could as a brother who shares these sins and similar struggles myself.

Another challenge, of course, is writing honestly and candidly and substantively about sin without indulging prurient interests. The chapter on lust was probably most dangerous in that regard. The aim of the book is not to indulge fascination with sin but to face it head on, sober-mindedly, and really not play around on the surface of the behavior.

Jared Wilson: Well, I don’t have a formulaic way of making these connections. I “read” a lot of the entertainment I take in on an illustrative basis. I think a lot of preachers do this, actually; as a preacher and a writer, I’m sure you do too.

I think people can go way overboard in making religious connections in everything they see, but good art resonates with me in ways I can’t really explain, so it’s a practically instinctive thing to see when Ben Stiller at the end of “Along Came Polly,” just as one example, says to Jennifer Aniston that he’s never been more afraid in his life than when he’s with her but wants to be with her forever anyway, to see this as a picture of the appeal and the danger of the call to discipleship. That’s just a silly little note, but these can be helpful for listeners and readers when you don’t make them about the movie but instead about the moment in the movie.

But for me personally, the other so-called “deadly sins” that I most apply my pride to are gluttony and lust, but more so gluttony these days. I’m not an obese guy, and that’s one way I have been tempted to avoid it, because there are not many physical repercussions. More than when I was younger, with a faster metabolism, and was more active, of course, but still not too many. But I love to medicate with food when I’ve had a rough day or week. I like food too much.

By God’s grace I do not struggle with lust nearly as much as I used to. This is purely a God thing, not a me thing, because I used to be a struggling pornography user. God broke me of that through some serious consequences, and I’ve been repentant and “clean” for almost 8 years now.

Jared Wilson: I think the church struggles in general most with greed and envy. This comes out in a million different ways, as the message of Christianity gets corrupted by the idolatrous parts of the American dream and even as whole churches succumb to competition with each other or a “shameful gain” of numbers, be it budgetary or attendance.

Jared Wilson: If we don’t continually center on the gospel of grace, we either leave people feeling the burden of condemnation or the deceptive burden of moralistic self-improvement. The latter may delay the felt experience of the former, but it goes there eventually anyway, as people tend to burn out or wonder why they can’t get beyond certain sinful habits or thoughts. The gospel is the only thing the Bible calls power to save.

Trevin Wax: Why are Christians tempted toward sin-management instead of sin-killing? What’s the difference?

Jared Wilson: Sin-killing is more painful and requires more self-honesty. Any schmuck can change his behavior. The Pharisees did. Buddhists do. The unsaved working the program in addiction recovery can do that. But it’s the desire, something much more elusive, much deeper, more rooted in our interior life and worship-wiring, that has to be fixed.

It’s the difference between mowing over weeds and actually uprooting them. And it’s a pain to pull weeds; we’d all just rather mow them down. Over and over and over again. It takes some grit to manage our sin — and then we can feel proud of ourselves — but it takes grace to kill sin.

It really is like messing with DNA. One of the premises of the book is that we don’t just do sin, we are sin. So sin-killing involves the dying to self that Jesus talked about, that taking up of our cross. But there is astounding power in knowing that He who knew no sin became (our) sin that we might become His righteousness.

Trevin Wax: Thanks, Jared. The study is an excellent resource, and I commend it to others.

It’s funny how certain words and phrases seep into conversations even before they are officially in print. In the past year, I’ve been hearing church leaders talk about the need to make the gospel “explicit” in one’s preaching and teaching. No surprise, I guess. The idea of not assuming the gospel is key for the gospel-centered movement, and one of the most gifted pastor-teachers of our day, Matt Chandler, has written a book with Jared Wilson on this very subject.

The second reason was because of my personal appreciation of Matt and Jared. I’ve known Jared for several years, and whenever I’ve spent time with him, I’ve come away loving Jesus more. The same is true of my personal interactions with Matt, and I was especially grateful for his willingness to write the foreword to Counterfeit Gospels. These are guys who love Jesus, love His church, and are all about His mission. I’m encouraged whenever I’m around them.

Trevin Wax: You contrast the “explicit gospel” with the “assumed gospel” by using the example of people who have grown up in church suddenly realizing they are not converted. What do you mean by the “assumed gospel,” and why is it dangerous?

Matt Chandler: The assumed gospel is preaching/teaching or leading God’s people in a way that puts their right standing before God solely in their hands rather than in the saving work of Christ. This usually takes the form of sermons and lessons that are based on moralism rather than grace. Such teaching focuses on our ability to obey the moral laws of God rather than the Holy Spirit’s ability to transform our heart. It focuses on behavioral modification. It assumes that we understand that the gospel saves us and sanctifies us.

Trevin Wax: How can we combat moralism without making it seem that behavior is unimportant? In other words, how can we combat behavior-focused, moralistic application without losing the biblical emphasis of growing in holiness?

And then what? Verse 5 says to put to death what is earthly. Paul believes that the way you put to death that which is earthly is to get your eyes on what Jesus has done and who Jesus is. The Holy Spirit transforms us from within as we fix our eyes upon Jesus. He teaches that if we take our eyes off of our “successes” and “failures” and put them on Jesus, we will be transformed “from one degree of glory to the next.”

Matt Chandler: The two vantage points take into consideration all that the gospel is in the Scriptures. Without one or the other, you’ve reduced the gospel to less than it is.

Matt Chandler: As a whole, I think we are leaning more toward what I call the gospel on the ground, which is great in that we are moving away from moralistic deism and toward pointing people to Jesus and what His righteousness, atoning death, and victorious resurrection have accomplished for us. But it’s still lacking. God is up to much more in the gospel than simply saving individuals.

Matt Chandler: I listen to a lot of sermons, and usually, “presenting the plan of salvation” is an add-on as you wrap up a sermon. Being gospel-centered is attaching the text to the reconciling work of God in Jesus Christ. Whether that attachment is to what God is doing in an individual, in a church body, to the domains of a given culture, or to creation at large is up to the text. One assumes that people understand the gospel and clarifies it at the end in case they don’t. The other weaves the message of the gospel throughout the sermon so that people, by the Spirit’s power, can get multiple “aha” moments as the sermon is preached.

Trevin Wax: What was your biggest surprise as you wrote this book? What truth was made new to you in a way that made your heart sing for joy?

Matt Chandler: It was probably because of my recent brush with cancer, but the chapter on “The Consummation” was extremely moving. Walking through the resurrection, our resurrected bodies, and the new creation took my soul to heights. As pastors, we deal with some extremely difficult situations, and digging into these realities was soothing and stirred in me a ferocious confidence in our sovereign King.

For more on the topic of making the gospel explicit in preaching and teaching, check out this 15-minute video of Matt Chandler from The Gospel Project webcast.

Anthony Bradley: Since slavery, the black church has served as a primary place for moral and social formation in the black community. The black church provided a refuge from suffering and a place to hear the hope of God’s plan to redeem all things because of what was finalized at the cross. We believe that her role is still important as the Scriptures teach us about the cosmic scope of redemption (Rom. 8; Col. 1).

If we want black families restored, virtues developed, and so on, that comes through the preaching and teaching of the work and person of Christ and the applications of redemption accomplished on the cross in our communities as God’s people seek first the Kingdom. This is what union with Christ is all about.

God intends to use His people, formed by the means of grace in His church, to be His agents of doing His will in the world wherever the curse is found (Matt. 5:13-20). As Reformed theologians, like Abraham Kuyper, remind us, the church is to continue preaching against sin in the lives of individuals and the errors in social institutions that do not reflect God’s intention for human life.

Anthony Bradley: Sadly, the prosperity gospel has taken the already individualistic, consumeristic American understanding of what it means to follow Christ to a new destructive level. This is why we included a chapter on this movement. Its theologically poisonous tentacles have found their way into many black churches, and it is now a major force in the black expression of Christianity in America, Latin America, and Africa.

Black pastors who are faithful to the Bible’s theology and faithful to the gospel of Christ are burdened to regularly preach against the prosperity gospel because of its presence in so many black churches as well as its emergence in contemporary gospel music. Prosperity theology is so bad that even black liberation theologians attack it.

Trevin Wax: Is gangsta rap a reflection of problematic issues within the black community or a cause of many social ills?

Anthony Bradley: It’s actually both. I am no fan of behavioral determinism because people who listen to gangsta rap still make their own moral choices. Gangsta rap is a complicated medium because it is primarily purchased by white suburban pre-teens and teens. The market drives so much of the content these days that some rappers are told what to rap about by producers because of what is known to sell. If there were a causal relationship between the music and moral action, middle-class culture would have similar outward pathologies in multiple areas.

In fact, gangsta rap serves as a signal and an enabler. You can think of gangsta rap as a reflection of the ways in which some people reflect on the narratives they encounter in their lived experiences. It serves as a signal to alert those in ministry to discern the “why” behind the music and to apply the gospel to it. It also serves to enable the mal-formed morals of those who already have certain presuppositions about the nature of the world.

The root cause of social ills in the black community is not gangsta rap but that men and women suffer from loving the wrong things in the wrong way. The music reflects that reality and, in some cases, encourages disordered love. This is why preachers need to preach the gospel to those who love gangsta rap because those men and women need to be transformed and liberated to love God and love neighbor (Matt. 22:36-40). This is what the gospel does—it frees us to love in the way God created people to love.

Sadly, the market will respond to the demands of consumers. When consumers are loving as God desires, it will be reflected in the music people want to hear—for those in the suburbs and inner-cities alike. As long as people are not loving the things that God loves, we will have music that does not reflect virtue (Phil. 4:8).

Anthony Bradley: The best way for a white church to serve alongside black pastors is to first think of themselves in a subordinate role—to first listen to what black pastors say the needs are and then to submit to black pastoral leadership. Far too often white churches approach black pastors assuming they know what is best for communities in which they do not live and for people they do not know. It is the same posture that is needed in international missions: Americans go to other countries and follow the lead of people who are there on the ground. Cross-cultural relationships in America are not different. This posture of humility will yield amazing dividends for the Kingdom.

Second, one of the reasons I wanted to do this book with Crossway was to give resources to white evangelicals, for them to use the book as a point of contact with black churches with whom they would like to serve and partner in order to say, “Here’s a book we picked up and would like to discuss with you all for the purposes of you telling us how we can help further the cause of Christ with your church in your community.”

Keep Your Head Up is a wonderful opportunity for white churches to begin new relationships with black churches to begin a fruitful dialogue. Sometimes in new relationships, you don’t know what to talk about. We want this book to serve as a national conversation starter not only within the black community but among white and urban pastors. We simply wanted to provide content for needed conversations. The truth is that we are all in this together as God’s people, and seeking the Kingdom calls for greater unity and solidarity. We wrote the book to help bridge the gap between the urban and the suburban (John 17).

After the Gospel Project webcast a few weeks ago, I had a video conversation with Jefferson Bethke (author of the street poem “Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus”) about student ministry. I thoroughly enjoyed spending some time with Jeff and sensing his contagious passion for Jesus and for people.

Jeff has been speaking to youth groups, high school students and college students for several years now. His advice to student ministers is to preach hard against sin and then preach the beauty of grace. My favorite quote from the video:

Why kids think God isn’t relevant or why they think they don’t need Him is because we’re not making sin big and we’re not making God big. And when you do that [make sin big], the cross is huge. But when you make sin small, then the cross has to be small, and God is automatically small.

Check out the 7-minute video here. If you’d like to sample The Gospel Project for Students for free, join the pilot project here.

A friend and colleague of mine – Marty Duren – is giving away copies of his book The Generous Soul: An Introduction to Missional Giving (see information below). To help him get the word out, I’ve asked him to join me for a conversation about how generosity is connected to the mission of the church.

Marty Duren: Thanks for the invite, Trevin. Many years ago, I was blessed to hear some really solid preaching by a number of evangelists on the biblical attitude toward possessions. Early in our marriage, Sonya and I committed to give from what God had entrusted to us, so over the years, we supported numerous missionaries, ministries, and whatever local church we attended. We really wanted to lay up treasures not on this earth.

During the past few years as the conversation around missional church, missional living, missional Christianity, etc. expanded, it seemed that the direct relationship to possessions was being overlooked, if not completely, then in a big way. If missional has to do with the believer’s partnership in the missio dei, then there is simply no way around the fact that this must impact our relationship to money and possessions.

Trevin Wax: I like the phrase you introduce in the book: “missional giving.” What do you mean by that?

Marty Duren: Missional giving is the idea that our relationship to money and possessions is subordinate to the mission of God, that all money we have under our control is under the control of God. We cannot say that we are on mission with God if our stuff is actively impeding that mission. To be a missional giver is to live in such a way that financial support of kingdom work is a planned priority. The thesis of the book is stated this way:

Marty Duren: Possibly the most important thing to come out of the missional conversation is the truth that all believers are missionaries in their country, culture, and context. This has contributed mightily to our exploration of cross-cultural mission work within our own cities and communities, leading us to embrace cultural distinctives rather than judging them. More and more, Christ’s followers see themselves, accurately, as missionaries.

When missionaries are sent into international contexts, there are expectations, both spoken and unspoken, that their lives will be sacrificial: lesser goods, lesser money, one car, less emphasis on possessions, and smaller houses. One well-known mission agency allows their missionaries to live only in homes up to 1,600 square feet in size. In virtually every instance, if a missionary demanded a U.S. sized home, multiple cars, a large yard, i.e., almost everything we as Americans expect, we would demand they either repent or come back home.

Why do we place expectations on missionaries we send to other countries but do not live according to the same expectations even though we are missionaries sent by God as well? How does the fact that we are in our home culture change the fact that we have the same gospel responsibility to our host culture as someone who travels to a new culture? It does not.

Marty Duren: Anyone raised in America is familiar with the concept of the American dream—the idea that anyone who works hard and is self-sufficient can be successful. Though it has been under some attack in the last 2-3 years, it stands as the concept of each generation doing better than the generation preceding it. The problem for American believers is that “doing better” refers, almost solely, to having more stuff. The American Dream too easily slides into a life of materialism.

This has nowhere been more clearly demonstrated than when the economy became mired in the Great Recession. Out-of-control debt—the result of buying, buying, and more buying—was a curse on followers of Christ as well as those making no claim to salvation. Mortgage foreclosures hit believers and churches alike. Our credit card debt, as a whole, was also enslaving.

It is not just the questionable theology of the prosperity gospel that is the issue or the followers of certain “health and wealth” preachers. It is the blindness to our own idol worship. It is so engrained that we do not see it as sin and are loathe to admit it if confronted. When we get a raise or a bonus, it is rare for the first response to be “I wonder if God has a purpose for this extra money He has sent my way…” Most of the time, the money is gone before it ever hits our checking account: new toys, new trinkets, bigger car, and the like.

Marty Duren: Because money is more tangible and it is easier to trust. When God says, “Wait,” but First National says, “No closing costs!” and MasterCard says, “Priceless!” we often reach for what we can touch rather than waiting for Him who is invisible. Even though God has promised to meet all our needs, our lack of patience leads us to the immediate gratification money provides. There are many ways that mammon is the exact opposite of God: God is power; money provides power. God requires faith; money replaces faith. God teaches patience; money provides immediacy—and so on.

Mammon is an idol that directly affects our lives every single day. Mammon is not like Baal or Molech—stone images to whom some sacrifice is made—instead, it affects virtually every decision we make: clothing, electricity, gasoline, size of house, style of car, vacation destination, sports, and hobbies. Literally, the list could go on and on. Part of what makes mammon so endearing is that it is interactive.

If we are not careful, we will make all of our financial decisions not on the basis of what God would have us do but simply on whether or not we can afford it. At that point, mammon is in control.

Marty Duren: Practical theology, yes. But this is not a book on balancing your budget or getting out of debt. It is not a how-to book. It is a “what is the truth and what does that require” kind of book. It is not an investment book, unless you count investing in the kingdom of God. Dave Ramsey and Ron Blue are safe.

Marty Duren: I would like to say it’s because I’m such a generous person, but that might not be accurate. It is actually two-fold: first, due to shifts in the publishing industry, my publisher is going out of business. Consequently, my book will be out of print until I either get another publisher or decide to self-publish it. Second, I really do believe the content is important enough to put into everyone’s hands, even if I don’t always make money.

To accomplish this, I’m making the book available in serial form on my blog. Each Thursday, beginning tomorrow, March 22, a new chapter will be available to read. It won’t be downloadable, but quotes for reviews or use in teaching will be allowed. It will stay up indefinitely unless an unexpected book deal were to require it to be removed. It will remain available in both the Kindle Store and the iBookstore at very discounted rates.

A couple weeks ago, I posted a review of a new book edited by Robert Plummer, Journeys of Faith: Evangelicalism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and Anglicanism, that chronicles the journeys of four individuals between four Christian traditions. Dr. Plummer was my hermeneutics professor at Southern Seminary, and he is also the author of 40 Questions About Interpreting the Bible. Today, he joins me for a conversation about his experience in editing this intriguing new book.

Robert Plummer: As I explain in the introduction to the book, I began to notice a trickle of Evangelicals converting to Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy – both from my local church and the seminary where I teach. When I looked for resources that helped in understanding this migration and responding biblically, I had difficulty finding anything helpful. I originally thought about describing and assessing the phenomenon myself but decided that the book would be much more interesting and accurate if recent converts were allowed to tell their own stories.

Robert Plummer: Frankly, I originally did not want to include Anglicanism in this book because Anglicanism is, in some expressions, thoroughly Evangelical. But the publisher convinced me that enough “free church” Evangelicals convert to Anglicanism that it is a related phenomenon we could not ignore. For example, Todd Hunter, former head of the Vineyard movement has recently written a book about his conversion to Anglicanism (see The Accidental Anglican).

Robert Plummer: I have several different hopes for the book, but let me focus on one here – for the Evangelical readership – that it would help us both understand and respond to persons leaving our churches for liturgical Christian traditions. Speaking quite directly… I believe an Evangelical understanding of the gospel, salvation, and the Scriptures is correct. (If I did not, I would leave Evangelicalism.) Yes, I respect persons leaving my faith tradition.

Nevertheless, through the responder sections of the book, I want to lay before potential converts the reasons I think they are making a mistake to leave Evangelicalism. And for those with friends leaving Evangelicalism, I hope this book equips them to make a loving appeal to stay. Chris Castaldo’s riveting account of his journey from Catholicism to Evangelicalism also highlights the strengths of Evangelical claims, I think.

Robert Plummer: Yes, authority is big. Who or what has the final say in matters of faith and practice – Scripture? Tradition? Experience? Or some combination? Obviously, as an Evangelical, I believe Scripture is the final authority, but I also understand the important secondary role tradition plays in all Christian churches – even those that deny they have traditions.

1. Ask questions and listen. Don’t immediately criticize. Try to understand the attraction of Eastern Orthodoxy.  Visit the church they are attending and graciously observe. Admit your own biases and erroneous preconceptions.
2. Read up on Eastern Orthodoxy in places like Wilbur Ellsworth’s and Craig Blaising’s chapters in Journeys of Faith. Another recommended book is Robert Letham’s Through Western Eyes. Eastern Orthodoxy: A Reformed Perspective.
3. Pray.
4. Speak the truth in love.

A few weeks ago, I posted a reflection on one of the best books I read last year, Wednesdays Were Pretty Normal: A Boy, Cancer, and God by Michael Kelley. It’s the compelling story of his 2-year-old son’s diagnosis with leukemia and the three and a half years of chemotherapy that followed.

Trevin Wax: Tell us about the title of the book. Why were Wednesdays pretty normal? 

Michael Kelley: I think up until Joshua’s diagnosis, I had the luxury of looking at pain and suffering, which all of us hold in common, like a specimen in a biology lab. I was able to pick at it, dissecting how God’s love and sovereignty fit together. But then the world was turned upside down.

It’s interesting to me that though the Bible clearly puts forth both a sovereign and loving God, it doesn’t see a difficulty in reconciling those attributes with each other. I think there’s something pastoral about that approach. The Bible doesn’t hold up for us all the ins and outs of “why” people suffer; it instead presents us with the inevitable reality of suffering and yet holds out for us the great compassion of God. Maybe walking through pain is one of the means God uses to bring people not to complete understanding of His character but to a deeper appreciation of its fullness.

Michael Kelley: I think some of both really. I kept a journal throughout Joshua’s treatment, and I intended for it to be full of profound thoughts of great importance. But it slowly devolved into one-sentence prayers and pleas for enough grace to get through the day.

I suppose that this is one of the most remarkable ways that God grows us in our faith though. Often we don’t realize it’s happening. It’s only on looking back at the experience that we are able to see a glimpse of just how faithful He really was the whole time.

Michael Kelley: I do. Or at least I hope that’s how people see it. We’re certainly not sentimental about the story, and I don’t think God is either. Sentiment, on its own, is really a cheaper kind of emotion. I think God resonates with our pain at a much deeper level than mere sentiment.

Trevin Wax: Thanks for stopping by, Michael. I enjoyed Wednesdays Were Pretty Normal, and I commend it to others. Here’s an excerpt I posted from the book last year.

Today I’m excited to welcome to the blog – Matt Papa. Matt is a minister and Christian recording artist based out of Raleigh, North Carolina, where he lives with his wife, Lauren, and two daughters. He serves on staff as a worship leader at The Summit Church in Durham and is currently finishing a masters degree at Southeastern Seminary. For over a decade, Matt has been writing and recording songs that are saturated with God’s Word. To Papa, a song is more than just lyrics and melody – it’s a sermon people will remember. Matt’s latest studio release, This Changes Everything, is a cry to put off empty religion and to embrace the radical call of the risen Christ.

Matt Papa: Yes! I believe we are beginning to see a revival of music with rich content for the church. The two primary places this is happening is within the Christian hip-hop culture (Lecrae, Trip Lee, Shai Linne, etc.) and in the modern worship pastor culture. Worship leaders are beginning to see themselves as worship pastors – caring deeply about song-theology and writing new songs of worship that feed the church. We’ve still got a long way to go, as much of the dominant and persuasive CCM industry is money driven rather than ministry driven, but I believe God is moving, and songs are being written that both perpetuate and memorialize this current season of gospel-renewal. And I say, “Go Jesus.”

Trevin Wax: Guys like you and me can come across somewhat critical of CCM, and sometimes rightly so. But I was recently revisiting some old Steven Curtis Chapman albums and noticed a heavy focus on grace, the gospel, etc. There are bright spots in CCM. What in CCM do you like?

Matt Papa: Some of the artists I like in Contemporary Christian Music (CCM) include Matt Redman, Phil Wickham, Matt Maher, Switchfoot, and Tim Hughes, although some would say (and I would say) these I have listed here aren’t quite “CCM.” They are contemporary artists and they are “doing Christian music,” but “CCM” has taken on a new meaning entirely in my opinion (I will explain in a moment).

The acronym “CCM,” in my opinion, no longer simply means contemporary Christian music. It has come to mean that style of Christian music that is heard on mainstream Christian radio, which can be characterized by words like poppy, chipper, and feminine in a musical sense…and words like shallow, safe, and imbalanced in a lyrical/spiritual/theological sense.

Trevin Wax: I hear you, and I share many of the same concerns. Do you think Christian radio is a lost cause? Is there hope for biblically rich, substantive lyrics on the radio? Or should we be thinking beyond radio anyway, as technology is offering lots of ways to hear music?

Matt Papa: I’ll answer your question in two parts. The first answer is regarding philosophy, and the second, strategy.

I think as Christians we must always live in the tension of knowing that the gospel will never be “popular” and yet always hoping that it will be. Jesus said the world would hate us, but Paul also said that we are to be all things to all people (i.e., be winsome). I think as Christians we have to hold to the truth that as long as we are living, there is no area of this world that is a “lost cause” because Jesus is alive and is strong enough to redeem anything and anyone. That said, I absolutely do think there is hope for Christian radio…and want to fight for that and pray for that. As it is underneath God’s sovereignty (like everything else), I should not be surprised if God moves and people repent and things begin to change…but as it is an element of “popular” culture, I should also not be surprised when the gospel is not explicit and Jesus is misrepresented. The Jesus of the Bible is not “popular.”

With respect to the second part of your question…should we be thinking beyond radio. I’ll answer that question with another question: Should movie-makers forget about the movie theatre since everyone is watching movies on their computers via Netflix and Hulu? I would say no. People may be going to the theatre less and less, but that’s where a movie gets major awareness and momentum. The metaphor may not be perfect, but it’s almost perfect.

Trevin Wax: So what’s the takeaway for those of us who are not involved in the music side of things? How can we encourage artists and musicians to compose great songs for the church? And how might we play a part in extending the influence of those artists and musicians into radio for increased exposure? We want to encourage and support musicians (like yourself) who are doing great work. Tell us how.

I’ll be doing a blog post on this topic in the days to come, but my short answer, at the risk of sounding vain and biased, is buy their music.

Artists/musicians, historically, have been modest, hard-working, blue-collar people who were mostly supported by patrons. In the middle ages, baroque, classical, and romantic periods, composers like Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Haydn (many of whom were worship leaders in churches) were financially supported by wealthy landowners or people of royalty. Patrons would give these composers financial support so that they could write music and do what they were called to do. Creating good art takes time. (On a side note: J. S. Bach, who had patron support, had 20 children and was a worship leader in 4 churches simultaneously!)

All that said, when you add Jesus and ministry to this mix, it can become extremely difficult to make ends meet. Art is already often pushed to the fringes of society in its importance, but when you add Jesus and the gospel, your possible “fan-base” immediately decreases by 70 percent because the gospel is by nature offensive.

For the church: the power of “song” is hard to exaggerate. Someone has said, “Let me make a nation’s (popular) songs, and I care not who make their laws.” Luther counted hymnody just under preaching in terms of theological formation. I say it this way: A song is a sermon people remember. People forget a sermon in a couple of weeks. They remember a song forever. That means if we as worship leaders and Christian artists are leading people astray with our lyrics, I believe we’ve got a lot of heavy millstones waiting for us. Songs and art have power, permanence, and influence, especially in the realm of theology. And it probably goes without saying but that which influences theology influences everything. ”What comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us” - A. W. Tozer.

For the artist: I think it will forever be a struggle for those in ministry – whose “market” is the church – to discern whether God is using them or they are using God. Pray for us Christian artists that we would be servants, not rock-stars. That we would be ministers, not icons. That we would wash feet. That it would become our ambition to build the kingdom of God, and that God would bless us to the extent that we embrace His mission in the world and not our own. Pray for us that we would become increasingly biblical…unafraid to say things that should be said…unafraid to sing things that should be sung. And pray that we would be focused…we will have all eternity to write music…we must win souls.