1. Ten Actors Who Hated Their Own Films

2.  James MacDonald: Bishop Jakes, 2nd Decisions, and Coming Home

3. Ed Stetzer: “On Heretics and Helpfulness”

4. C. S. Lewis and the Power of Story

5. Five Ways to Find a Mentor

6. The Doctrine of the Trinity in a Nutshell

7. Gingrich and Reagan

Instead, I want to lay out a few guidelines for how we go about processing The Elephant Room.

Guidelines

First, we should aim for grace and truth in the way we act toward one another and speak of one another. We need clarity and charity, but too often we choose one at the expense of the other. Either our emphasis on clarity causes us to act uncharitably toward one another or our emphasis on charity leads us to paper over distinctions and leave things muddled rather than clarified. The goal of this post is to push for greater clarity and precision, but with heartfelt charity and good intentions.

Secondly, we should assume the best about people’s motives. That means that we ought to assume the best of motives on the part of James MacDonald in his hosting of this event. Likewise, we ought to assume the best of motives on the part of those who decried the event and the invited guests. Love demands we assume the best of intentions, even if ultimately we disagree with one another.

Third, we ought to consider the effect of this event on the mission of the church. Too often, the conversation about associations and invitations stays in the ivory tower of ideas. Instead, we need to push for more missiological reflection. How does this event equip God’s people to live on mission? How does this event hinder or help the mission?

The missiological dimension allows for the fact that sometimes our best intentions lead to effects we did not anticipate. There have been several times in ministry when when I’ve tried something in order to fix a problem, only to discover down the road that I had created a set of different problems altogether. So, while we might agree with James MacDonald on some of the problems between pastors he has witnessed, it is still beneficial to consider an event’s positive and negative implications.

With those preliminary things out of the way, let’s get on with the conversation about The Elephant Room 2.

1. It is good to celebrate minimal agreement on fundamental doctrines, but even better to pursue a robust affirmation of biblical teaching.

I understand there are multiple issues related to the resignation of James MacDonald from The Gospel Coalition. But at the foundational level, it’s safe to assume that the philosophy of The Elephant Room proposes a different way forward for evangelicalism than The Gospel Coalition does. And the primary differences zero in on the question of minimalism. In other words, what is the minimal number of doctrines and beliefs that must be agreed upon in order for there to be close friendship and fellowship between pastors?

What we have here is two different visions: one contemporary and one confessional.

Contemporary evangelicalism is a big tent that keeps getting bigger. A short list of doctrines must be in place in order for people to cooperate, fellowship, or share a platform together, but there is no consensus regarding how those doctrines should affect one’s ministry philosophy. That’s why contemporary evangelicalism has sometimes been described as encompassing “anyone who likes Billy Graham.”

Confessional evangelicalism seeks to renew the center of the movement by uniting likeminded believers around the gospel and promoting the centrality of the gospel in one’s teaching and preaching. A common theological vision for ministry leads these pastors to take associations very seriously, and even if there are no hard, fast rules in place, they generally refrain from sharing a platform together in a way that leads to a perceived endorsement.

The Elephant Room aligns more with the ethos of contemporary evangelicalism (public platform-sharing with anyone who confesses Christ). The Gospel Coalition aligns more with the ethos of confessional evangelicalism (public platform-sharing with those who share a common theological vision of ministry).

2. It is good to celebrate an affirmation of orthodoxy, but even better to affirm the celebration of orthodoxy.

By far, the session that was most anticipated was the one in which T. D. Jakes was asked to clarify his position on the Trinity. Thankfully, he did so – though perhaps not in a way that would satisfy all of his critics. I believe we should celebrate his affirmation of the truth that there is one God in three Persons.

At the same time we celebrate Jakes’ affirmation of truth, we should also look at what it is that he celebrates in his preaching and teaching. Surely one must ask why we have to discover Jakes’ view of the Trinity in a friendly panel discussion in Chicago instead of in the sermons he delivers to his church in Texas. In other words, the issue is not if Jakes believes in the Trinity, but to what extent Jakes’ belief in the Trinity matters to his ministry? Does the weight of this truth come out in his preaching and teaching?

Here is a question that needs to be asked: Within the realm of orthodoxy, how much does emphasis matter? It is possible to check off the doctrines on a list, and yet not give these truths the weight they deserve, to not let these truths affect what and how we preach. To me at least, the issue at stake here is not the content of one’s theology but the importance of that theology. It’s not merely about what we affirm, but what we celebrate and proclaim.

So yes, we can get a group of pastors in a room and ask them if they affirm the basics of the gospel. Amen and amen! Let’s celebrate those affirmations. But surely we must go beyond mere affirmation of a checklist to a more robust celebration of the gospel and how it affects what we do.

I’ve been listening to Steven Furtick’s preaching recently, and though Furtick assents to the gospel, his preaching ministry lends itself more toward motivational speech than strong celebration of the gospel. Jakes affirms the core message of the gospel too (praise God!), but in watching him preach on television in recent weeks, I’ve seen self-motivation and perseverance celebrated more than the cross. I cannot help but think that if one cannot discern your view of the Godhead from your preaching, perhaps you are not preaching enough about God. (And the disappointing part of the discussions at The Elephant Room 2 was that prosperity teaching went completely under the radar. It discourages me to think of David Platt at Elephant Room 1 getting drilled for urging radical sacrifice while Jakes’ teaching of health and wealth was never even brought up.)

We need to introduce a category related to theological importance that takes us beyond the mere affirmation of a theological point. Jakes believes in the Trinity. Praise God! But now we should ask: Is the Trinity important? How important? How do these truths we affirm affect our view of ministry? Our preaching? Our work in the world? That’s the conversation that still needs to take place.

3. It is good to come together in love, but even better when that love leads us sharpen one another in truth.

The conversation at Elephant Room 2 was much more tame than at the first conference, perhaps because the fireworks took place in the weeks leading up to the event. This one seemed more like a panel discussion with experienced pastors. The tone was quite different. It was refreshing actually to see how warmly all the pastors interacted with one another.

In the first Elephant Room, unity in essentials was assumed and diversity of methods was platformed. In the second Elephant Room, diversity in methods was assumed and unity in essentials was platformed. Because of this difference in tone, there was no substantial debate. What we witnessed was the coming together of several pastors united by their heart for each other and for people.

Several sessions were particularly encouraging – the affirmation of denominations as having value, the admonition to be urgent in our gospel proclamation, the way we ought to restore a minister who has fallen into sin. I thought Wayne Cordeiro’s session on pastoral burn-out was very encouraging. I benefited especially from Cordeiro’s insight that Satan will steal your joy if he can’t destroy you some other way. On these topics, the accumulated wisdom from these pastors was edifying to all who listened in. I highly recommend that pastors read through the notes and glean wisdom from these brothers.

Still, I wish we had seen more sharpening – not in a propped up sense of debating for debate’s sake, but in challenging one another in a way that goes deeper than merely affirming one another’s motives. It is easy to see anyone with a critical view of the Elephant Room as being hopelessly fundamentalist, narrow-minded and uncaring. Certainly some of the critics may fit that description. But there are others who were concerned about this event out of love. Love for people. Love for the organizers. Love for churches that have been damaged by aberrant theology and practice.

It would have been better to see the major distinctions between these participants brought to the table and discussed. Instead, it seemed as if all arguments and debates fade away in light of one’s fruitfulness in terms of numerical growth of the church. The silent assumption seemed to be: We may be different, but as long as God is blessing you (numerically), we can’t really debate. 

4. It is good to recognize that we all have errors that need correcting, but even better to pursue the correction of those errors.

The humility of the participants in the Elephant Room was refreshing. Everyone seemed self-aware and open to correction, even if very little correction took place during the event.

I also appreciated the warning given to conservative evangelicals (particularly the Reformed) who appear to celebrate critique. It’s true that in our circles critics are lifted up as courageous, often undeservedly. (And, trust me, the irony that I am offering a critique of the Elephant Room is not lost on me!)

Furthermore, Driscoll was right to admonish his Reformed friends to have a passion for reaching people that exceeds a passion for reviewing books. Still, I don’t want to drive a wedge between reviewing books and reaching people. Instead, I want to say that whenever anyone reviews a book, it ought to be motivated by reaching people. It’s in service to the mission that we debate theological matters. It’s because we recognize that theology is important and that the missional stakes are high that we engage in sharpening one another in gracious critique.

We need to create an atmosphere where we can challenge one another to not only check off boxes on a doctrinal questionnaire, but also to keep the cross and resurrection central to our proclamation. That was my motivation for writing Counterfeit Gospels - to reorient our lives and ministries around the beauty of the biblical gospel that empowers us for mission. We must avoid not only false gospels, but any proclamation that drifts away from the centrality of the cross. Why? Because drifting away from the cross and resurrection of Christ will leave us impoverished instead of enriched, weakened instead of strengthened. And our passion for mission suffers. The discussion in the Elephant Room seemed to assume that as long as someone’s ministry was numerically fruitful, the question of subtle (or not-so-subtle) drifting away from the cross couldn’t possibly be accurate.

One additional thing needs to be said regarding our humility in addressing theological topics. We mustn’t think that standing firm for certain doctrines and truths is dogmatic and arrogant. Our society chafes against an absolutist approach to virtually anything (except the absolute belief that there are no absolutes). To equate firmness with pride is a deadly error.

In contrast, as Christians, we believe that standing firm can be an act of humility. It is not a stubborn, arrogant dogmatism that leads us to insist on the traditional view of the Trinity. It’s a humble reverence for the Scriptures, interpreted by the church fathers and embraced by Christians for 2000 years. I understand, of course, that God is beyond our full comprehension. (I wrote just this week about the mystery of the Trinity and how we study this doctrine out of love.) But surely we ought to desire to grow mentally into more definite convictions on these matters. As Chesterton said, “The purpose of an open mind, like an open mouth, is to close on something solid.” It is not arrogant to close one’s mind on something as solid as Trinitarian truth.

Conclusion

In the end, I admire James MacDonald’s intention to bring about more civil discourse between believers. We need charity and clarity. But civility is not a love-fest. We will disagree – strongly at times. Why? Because theology matters. The stakes are high. Bad theology hurts people.

Bad conflict in the Christian church is caused by ego and pride. Good conflict ought to flow from love and compassion. We need less “bad conflict” and more “good, sharpening conflict.”

Weak unity in the Christian church is caused by minimizing the importance of theology. Strong unity flows from affirmation and celebration of the essential truths of Christianity and how they impact our lives and ministries. We need less “weak unity” and more “strong unity.”

So when we engage in conflict, let’s make sure it is out of love for the truth, love for Jesus, love for one another, and love for the people we shepherd. Sometimes we may even stand against a brother on a certain issue, but even when we take an adversarial stance, it ought always to be for the good of that brother and the glory of King Jesus. Let’s take the goal of The Elephant Room seriously and be people who are full of grace and truth.

Speakers: All pastors

Disclaimer: This is merely a summary of my notes, taken down live during the event. They may not be word-for-word and will need to be seen on video in order for their context to be fully understood. I will be updating this post every few minutes as the session goes on.

MacDonald: Crawford, how did you come to know Jesus Christ?

Loritts: I was 13. My sister was older than me. I saw the change in her life. She invited me to church, and when I went there I saw the infectious love of the Lord Jesus in those people. I came back the next Sunday and was saved.

Furtick: My mom raised me in church. I got dragged to a Baptist revival when I was 16. A guy there named Jody took me aside and talked to me about having an authentic relationship with Jesus. And I got addicted to what I am doing today – trying to influence people for Jesus.

Cordeiro: I hid from Christians because they seemed freaky. I heard music from Christians, and I thought, they must not be that bad. It opened my heart. I still use music and arts to present the gospel.

MacDonald: I gave my life to Jesus Christ when I was 7 at a Sunday night service. I went home and asked my parents, and my mom led me to Christ. I wandered from the Lord, but He never let go of me. I know that I know that I am a child of God today.

Driscoll: I was raised Catholic. Some Catholics know and love Jesus. I was not one of them. A pastor’s daughter gave me a Bible. I finally understood sin as pride, not just moral issues. I had a whole lot of pride. Still do. God opened my heart to Jesus as I read through Romans. It was in my dorm room.

Graham: Childhood conversion. 6 years old. Evangelist came up and set up a tent. I walked the sawdust road. I have never doubted that experience, even though it was very young.

Jakes: My dad got sick when I was 10. He died when I was 16. It threw me into depression that created a spot in my life when I knew that the only hope I had to be fathered was from my heavenly Father. I was determined to know more about life and it drove me to the Author and Finisher of my faith.

Question: In my moments of honesty, the thing that frustrates me most about myself is…

Jakes: I have this passive-agressive personality. Sometimes I am loyal to a fault, and sometimes I get frustrated with myself because I am quicker to embrace than attack. But if you push all that love over, then I want to go to the other extreme and cut your throat. Not literally. Calm down!

Graham: The inability to let things go. When you’re a leader, you’re constantly trying to fix things. So the inability to really let it go, give it to God, or let it go away… I’m an obssessive “fix-it” kind of person. That’s the need to control a situation.

Driscoll: My selfishness. If I get angry, it’s because someone inconvenienced me.

MacDonald: Sometimes, I’m too good a friend. I volunteer too much. (joking) No… actually, the thing that frustrates me the most about myself is that I am more easily wounded than I let on. I can forgive, but I don’t get over it. I need to let it go. I’ve experienced so much forgiveness, I should be able to get over things faster.

Cordeiro: The line between caring deeply and worrying too much about something or someone. I can’t get that right. I wrestle with that. I hope I can figure that out.

Furtick: My wife said, “When will it be enough?” I can’t find the line between asking God to do more, not becoming complacent, and yet being grateful. It easily slips into wrong motives. I need another achievement, another asterisk.

Loritts: Sometimes, my heart will write a check that my calendar can’t cash. Not being a prisoner to need, or just because you can do it… understanding the tension of being a grateful servant.

Question: The gospel is our greatest treasure. It sparkles like a diamond. Which facet is sparkling most to you these days?

Loritts: The wonder of our Savior dying on the cross in our place. I’m overwhelmed at the fact that Jesus would die for me.

Furtick: I always thought God’s favor was a sidebar, but it is synonymous with grace. God is for us. I always would say that He is with me. But when I know He is for me… I always thought He loved me because He died for me, but that He didn’t really like me. But now I rest in him.

Cordeiro: God is pleased with us. Sometimes I am like Schindler. I’ve got to do one more thing to get God’s pleasure. And the Lord says, “No. Chill. I am pleased with you.” It’s in my mind. I need it in my heart.

MacDonald: The imputed righteousness of Christ. I’m not getting a report card. I’ve already got straight A’s. The imputed righteousness of Christ is a gift that cannot be imagined.

Driscoll: I’ve been thinking a lot about expiation. Not only are we forgiven in Christ, but we are made clean. For me, I always felt forgiven, but always dirty, damaged, and defiled. But Christ sees us as clean. God’s people get to wear white.

Graham: The call of the gospel. After 40 years, I am more passionate about this gospel and the call. And to know that your greatest years – the best really is yet. I’m more excited to preach the gospel than I’ve ever been more in my life.

Jakes: For me, it is knowing that we have a God that suffers with you. There is a fellowship in the suffering. We do not go through our struggles alone. I find that many people will experience the fellowship of success, but they don’t know that some degree of sorrow will come. We have a Suffering Savior. I never suffer alone.

Question: My one concern about young pastors would be…

Jakes: Young pastors see us on platforms, but because they don’t see the cost and the suffering behind it, they are not prepared for it when it comes.

Graham: That they don’t sell out the gospel or their own life for something cheaper. There is so much brokenness, and young pastors are bringing brokenness in. My prayer for the younger generation is purity of lifestyle that honors the gospel.

Driscoll: I speak to the tribe I’m a part of. I want to see their passion to reach people exceed their passion to review books.

MacDonald: Our sense of timing is messed up. A lot of people are impatient for promotion. Take your list of what you want to get, crumple it up, and throw it away. Give your life to Christ. It’s worth it even if you get nothing for it.

Cordeiro: The danger of letting the calling become a career. Don’t take any shortcuts. Pay the price.

Furtick: We can fall prey to a spirit of entitlement. That is the antithesis of honor. It’s like Guitar Hero. Everyone wants to be a rock star, but no one wants to learn the chords.

Loritts: Faithfulness has been devalued. Continuity is the key to their effectiveness. Others paid the tuition for us to have the platforms that we have. The power of your ministry comes from the fact of grabbing your baton, realizing that you live for a time you cannot see. I’m nervous for this generation because it’s disconnected from the faith rhythms that go down the corridors of time.

Question: What do you see the church looking like in 20 years, given its current trajectory?

Loritts: I’m conflicted. I’m alarmed at the drift away from truth. That scares me a bit. On the other hand, I see guys like Steven, what Mark is doing, and I just want to stand up and be the number one cheerleader. I think that this next generation is going to do some incredible things. My big concern is that they embrace holiness and godliness and won’t get disqualified. On balance, I have a lot of hope. Despite the statistics, there is a refreshing movement of God in this 40 and younger crowd.

Furtick: I don’t have any right to speak to the trend. The future cannot be predicted, because it is waiting to be created. I don’t know what’s coming, but by God’s grace, I intend to carry it forward. Not watering it down, and not resigning anything to the devil. We’re going to move forward. But I can’t speak to the trend. I want to prophesy life over our generation.

Cordeiro: I have a lot of hope because of things like this. If we leave it to the tendency of today, we will become a subculture rather than a counter-culture. Life inside, but hard shell on the outside. We’ve got to blow that out and be a counter-culture.

MacDonald: God’s favor on America has been surprising in its continuance. I think that it’s hard to miss the trends in society and the church. I’m not called to be the police, but preaching that emphasizes the Word of God and the gospel versus felt need preaching is what is important. I want to call others to the same. It isn’t impossible that North America would become like Western Europe. All we can do is expend ourselves to the opposite.

Driscoll: 20 years ago, I was a college junior and a Christian for two years. My hope is not in my network or my denomination or an institution. God can grab anybody, turn them into somebody, and use them for anything. I want to see who God sets on fire.

Graham: Praise God it’s getting gloriously dark. If we read our Bibles, we see that things will get worse. The signs of times are multiplying. It’s not going to get easier, but harder. The challenge is to prepare the church for a totally different place in America and around the world. We know opposition at some level, but not persecution. It could be coming. We must prepare our kids and grandkids for much harder times, for courage. What would our generation do in the face of real conflict? I’m excited about the future of the next generation because the gates of hell will not prevail against our church. But we must prepare for tougher times.

Jakes: My hope is that in 20 years, this coming generation will translate the integrity of the Scriptures into the language of the times and not make the mistake in looking at mediums of communication as bad. We should not limit the platform to wooden platforms or chapels, but infect their culture with the gospel through every medium of technology and use the arts to make the point.

Question: What have you learned today?

Jakes: How important it is to not be so busy that I can’t come out of my own comfort zone. That I’m called beyond my borders.

Graham: The challenge to moral purity in the pastoral purity. The whole anger thing disturbs me. I haven’t thought about that – how much anger is in the pulpit, our ministry, our churches, our pews.

Driscoll: I like to have fun. This has been fun. It was fun to have dinner with the guys. I wonder if fun is one of the attributes of God.

Cordeiro: It reminded me how much I need to sit before the Word and learn.

Furtick: There is freedom in knowing that I don’t have to have every answer right now. I can sit back and take down a note and admit a struggle. May God help us through His grace. Slow to speak. Be a better learner.

Loritts: I have to sit and marinate. The modeling of listening with our hearts has been terribly important. I leave here burdened for the state of so many of my brothers. We can spiritualize our insecurities and our fears. Why are we afraid to talk to each other? Why does that threaten us so much? It’s something I’ve known before, but the older I get, the more passionate I am about what I really do know and the more free I am to say, “I don’t know.”

MacDonald: I’m going to process all that I’ve learned. I’ll watch the DVDs and listen. You listen differently when there is no pressure at all. Thank you for serving Jesus Christ and for being honest in talking about things that are uncomfortable. I thank my son, Luke MacDonald, and many people who have worked very hard to make this happen. I hope we’ve honored Jesus Christ.

What responsibilities do we have to local pastors who exist outside our theological boundaries, but within the body of Christ? How do you confront a brother in error while showing fidelity to truth, and to the truth about biblical relationship? Given the freedom to preach your conscience, is there anywhere you wouldn’t preach? Does a pastor’s association really communicate endorsement, or is that just a carryover from fundamentalism? How can pastors practically encourage/challenge those who are different than they are? How do the benefits of broader community weigh against the dangers of confusing people about your own convictions?

Speakers: James MacDonald and Steven Furtick, moderated by Mark Driscoll

Disclaimer: This is merely a summary of my notes, taken down live during the event. They may not be word-for-word and will need to be seen on video in order for their context to be fully understood. I will be updating this post every few minutes as the session goes on.

Driscoll: This is a summary of your motivation and heart for this event, James. We’re talking about Christian associations and conversations. Think in terms of national and state borders. We’re talking about how big your world is. Pentecostal, Baptist, Reformed. Is that your state or is that your nation? If it’s your nation, you may declare war on those within the family of evangelicalism but not part of the nation you call home. If it’s your state, then within those states you see people who do love Jesus but have differentiation on secondary issues, then that will allow you to love our state, but see it as a home and not a prison. The question is – How big is your world? Is your state your nation, and you won’t work beyond that? The next question is, Where do you draw those lines? Thirdly, what relationship should you have with people beyond those borders? Is a friendship a tacit approval of disagreements? It’s the fundamentalist issue of association. It’s what Jesus got criticized for. He can’t have those friends!

MacDonald: Your description of national and state borders is very helpful. The problem comes when we say, “My state is Texas. It’s the biggest.” When you’re so proud of your state you doubt if anyone else is American, that is problematic. I was that guy. I went to a fundamental Bible college. It took me 25 years out of 30 years of ministry to see the trappings of negativity of fundamentalism. I could’ve lost it faster but I am fired up about the doctrine. I am a doctrine guy, but I’m not angry about it.

Driscoll: You’re like a pinata at Cinco de Mayo lately. You’ve taken a beating lately.

MacDonald: It all started with Bill Hybels. He was down the street from me. I see ministry very differently from him, to this day. But a guy in Chicago rallied together a bunch of us pastors. That’s how I met Reverend Meeks. Bill called me and said, “Pick me up.” We got stuck in a snowstorm to get across Chicago back to our houses. I love Bill Hybels. Don’t ever get up in my face and criticize his integrity or his commitment to the gospel. We have very different methodologies, but he is sincere and has left no scandal in the gospel. I could not negate him as a person, even if I emphasize things. His friendship changed – not my convictions, not my methodologies, but my tone. Round 2. I was in California and I played golf with a well-known pastor. (He’s not a fan of you, Mark.) Not one hole, but two, three, five, eight holes, he couldn’t stop talking about everything bad Driscoll does. I was so upset about that. I got off the course and I called Jack Graham, who has everyone’s cell phone number. I said, “Jack, get me Driscoll’s number.” It took him five minutes. Mark picked up, and I said “hello.” I knew he had one of my books on his website so he knew who I was. We talked. He came to Chicago and we went to a Cubs game. Then I called him and said, “We’re going to Haiti.”

Driscoll: Most people were trying to get out of Haiti. You said, “Get to Chicago, and I’ll find a way to get you to Haiti and I’ll get you your shots.”

MacDonald: We didn’t know what we were getting into. Two big experiences with someone I saw and doubted (or was told to doubt), and in both instances, my convictions didn’t change, but my tone changed. Those two experiences led to others. Maybe I could do this more. I saw Furtick in Outreach magazine and I thought, Who is that?

Driscoll: Why? He seems likeable. He looks Hispanic.

MacDonald: I think my disposition was to doubt. I’m not proud of that. I’m ashamed of that. So much of fundamentalism is rooted in fear. You’re going to hurt me, disappoint me. You’re going to go off course. We’re waiting. It’s going to come out. I had to shake that disposition off. I did like him. So I tweeted something to Steven, and he tweeted right back. He wasn’t put off by it. He gave a gracious response. He came up to Chicago and spent a whole day driving around with me, seeing the campuses. Such humility. I thought to myself, It happened again. Bill Hybels. Mark Driscoll. Steven Furtick. That led to the Elephant Room. I am going to get people in a room together. We’re not afraid to talk about anything. We don’t hide the truth. We’re going to talk. We’re going to spend eternity together. Why not start now? I feel called of the Lord to model that experience that I had. Both of you have enriched my life. I’m blessed by our friendship.

Furtick: The sad thing is… it’s rare for people to show their affection for each other in our line of work. How bizarre, when we are pastors and shepherds. Somehow we have been forced into this conversation about borders quickly. A lot of people may be called to draw borders and boundaries, but the calling on my life is to affirm the center. I don’t mean that no one needs to draw boundaries, but it’s a crazy thing – some of the language that we used. “The Reformed community is not a big fan of you, Steven.” Bishop Jakes said, “What does that statement even mean?” We must sound pretty silly to God, but especially to the world that we are called to reach. The whole idea of drawing boundaries from the beginning does not appeal to me a whole lot.

Driscoll: I’m talking inter-faith. We can’t worship with Hindus and Muslims, etc.

Furtick: When you called me, James, and Jack Graham got you my cell phone number… I thought, It’s really cool you would take the time to talk to me. I remember thinking about how nice you were on the phone. By listening to your radio broadcast, I thought, What a strong Bible teacher! But he sounds so dogmatic I probably wouldn’t like him too much. But someone at dinner once said that if you want to have a fun time, James MacDonald is one of the most fun.

Driscoll: Putting the fun back in fundamentalism. James MacDonald!

Furtick: I had constructs in my mind about what you would be like. I remember getting dressed to come see you, and I didn’t want to look a certain way. I didn’t want you to think I was “one of those guys.” I was operating out of a negative framework. I was insincere. When you hugged me, you picked me up off the ground!

Driscoll: That sounds romantic, bro. That’s a national border, you know.

Furtick: We could stand to build one another up in love more. We could give honor more freely. I don’t think we’re in danger of giving too much encouragement, love and honor. So, I think that I have my own hypocrisy in this area. We always think people are judgmental against us, but the judgment goes both ways. People didn’t want me to come to the first Elephant Room because of their perception of you as a dogmatic, hate-filled preacher. They associated you with people and friendships that are not even recent. I’ve seen real boldness today that made me want to be bolder. The people championed as bold are those who write books to their own tribe and throw the red meat to their own people. “Boy that’s bold! You really told them.” But the people you were telling off weren’t even listening. I am strengthened by you affirming people without an asterisk by it. For you to stand with me, it has been endearing. A lot of fatherless generation pastors appreciate you putting your arm around me and taking shots for it. How do we get this charitable spirit? Assuming the best about people? So that we don’t have to get to know everyone before we assume they are okay?

Driscoll: Friend, until proven foe.

MacDonald: Can I speak to that?

Driscoll: No. Wait, it’s your event. Go ahead!

MacDonald: If I hadn’t known Bill Hybels, I wouldn’t have had Wayne come. And Wayne has been a friend. I preached for Craig Groeschel, and he means a lot to me. Balanced. Biblical. My point is that if you call the pastor down the street and you start realizing there are people who love the same gospel and love the same book and follow the same Savior, you can explore these relationships. I was raised in a church in which anyone outside of our particular kind of Baptist church wasn’t saved. There are two priorities that have to stand: the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Furtick: I had a guy come up to me, a friend who knows me well. He said, “If you ever started preaching false doctrine, I would have to disassociate with you.” I said, “Did I preach something?” He said, “No. I just know your associations.” I said, “If you sleep with my wife, I will cut your head off.” In other words, Why are we having this conversation? We are friends. We wouldn’t do this. Some people think they are defending the gospel, but they are really just crappy friends.

Cordeiro: Love thinks the best. We’ve got the tendency to want to identify with one tribe so that we’re under a different flagpole. We try to side with one another to make ourselves seem bigger than we are. We’ve got to get back to the center. The closer we get to the cross, the closer we are to each other too. Maybe we are drifting from Calvary.

Loritts: 1 Corinthians 13. The legacy of the fundamentalist controversy has tainted all of evangelicalism. It hit the fan in the 20s and 30s. What was core to biblical Christianity? Unfortunately, it’s a legacy of fighting. Defining yourself by who you are against. Rather than assuming and sending people through pre-qualifying questionnaire, I need to lead with love, with my eyes wide open, and get to know people’s hearts and minds before I get to conclusions about people. I come from a strong, truth-speaking background. The downside of that is that it is the whole truth of the Word of God. Ephesians 4 is in the Word of God too. I’ve got to be kind, loving, seeking unity. So I say to my brothers who lead with truth, please lead with all the truth of the Word – both vertically and relationally.

Graham: I love to connect people to each other. To me, one of the joys of my life is to be connected and to leverage those friendships we have with one another to encourage each other. Everyone needs encouragers and mentors, and connectors too. For the sake of the gospel and unity in the bond of peace.

Jakes: I come from a world with different problems than these. I come from worlds where fellowship is taken for granted and unity is commonplace. The things you do easily, we struggle to do. The things you struggle to do, we do easily.

Driscoll: Why is that?

Jakes: Minorities don’t have the luxury of bickering about everything. We wouldn’t survive if we didn’t work together. Pre-trib, post-trib, etc. It’s not that we don’t have an opinion or can’t muster the intellect to have the debate, it’s that our survival instincts lead to brotherly kindness. We had no choice.  Loving as Jesus loved. He died for the people. If we lift the laws higher than the people, we don’t reflect the heart of God. Breaking a pathology that produces the false ideology that strength is taking a stand for what you’re against rather than what you’re for will change the atmosphere of all you influence. Let us not confuse anointing and substitute it with anger. Sometimes in the absence of the pursuit of God’s presence, the only power we can exhibit before our people is anger. Go back to our knees and ask God for the refreshing of the Holy Spirit to persuade men, rather than use the force of our anger and tenacity to replace the presence of God.

Question: Is there a Christian you wouldn’t invite to the Elephant Room?

MacDonald: No.

Furtick: That’s the absurdity. This is not a platform that endorses, but a platform for issues to be discussed. We’ve perverted boldness into arrogance.

Driscoll: If someone is accused of something, and they are willing to sit down and answer questions about it, then let’s ask the question.

MacDonald: Our anger doesn’t just show up in our preaching. By the way, authority – thus says the Lord – is not anger. Society rejects authority and can’t always interpret the fact that God doesn’t give “suggestions.” I’ve worked hard at bringing down any sense of anger, without losing authority. Having said that, though, we don’t just struggle with wrong attitudes toward Christians like us. We don’t just struggle with anger toward Christians in different races doing different ministries. We struggle with anger toward non-Christians, Republicans, Democrats. It’s everywhere. If we do another Elephant Room, and our elders decide we do another one, I defend the right to bring in a Muslim, or another religion. I just think – the subject of civility and the ability to talk to people very different – is important. We need to work on that.

Driscoll: I was talking to Andy Stanley, who said, “As a leader, you’ve got to ask – do I want to make a point? Or do I want to make a difference?” In the age of technology, that is instant, constant and permanent, “make a point, make a point, make a point…” You can garner a tribe of critics even if you’re not fruitful or faithful, just because others are fearful. You don’t have meet anyone to make a point, listen to what they’ve said, read what they’ve written. To make a difference, you’ve got to get to know someone. Build a relationship. Learn where they come from. Some people have already traveled miles down the road of grace. Sometimes the point we make is privately, because we love each other. So when we disagree, it’s the wounds of a friend to be trusted much.

Furtick: Your love paved the way to say anything you want to say to me. Publicly we launch grenades, and privately we don’t. It should be the opposite.

Driscoll: What has this even cost you? And what has it taught you?

MacDonald: It has cost me some relationships. I thought I knew what the Lord wanted me to do, and I had good counsel. Craig Groeschel has a lot of wisdom, and he said to me, “Just because someone doesn’t want you in their circle anymore doesn’t mean they can’t be in yours.” I’m going to be pursuing relationships. I’m praying for the ability to show grace. Nobody’s the center. The Word of God and the gospel is the center, but I don’t presume I’m standing in the center of the center. I don’t want to treat poorly those who are on either side. When we’re mistreated, we can say, “Now is my opportunity! I can be kind.”

What do you do when a staff member fails morally? How bad is bad enough for dismissal? What responsibilities does the church continue to have to the former staff member? What if the failure involves a higher-profile pastor in your area or circle of influence? Is it ever acceptable to name a fallen pastor publicly? Can a fallen pastor re-qualify and be restored? In the same church? How soon is too soon? What safeguards can be established to help those who sincerely desire to remain faithful?

Speakers: Crawford Loritts and Wayne Cordeiro, moderated by James MacDonald

MacDonald: A conversation called “Help.” Let’s help churches, pastors and leaders on what we do when a good man falls morally.

Loritts: What you do begins prior to the fall, prior to when all the stuff takes place. The need to be spiritually healthy and emotionally healthy. There also needs to be a strong sense in every church about the responsibility you have in leadership – the issue of character, leadership, and that there is a higher standard for leaders. We must be godly and modeling that. I am, if I am on a church staff in any capacity, a steward of the ministry itself and the message as a whole. When someone falls into sin, Galatians 6 is our attitude, and Matthew 18 is our approach. Whenever we confront anyone over sin, there ought to be tears in our soul. The goal is that person’s restoration, not about me being embarrassed about the ministry or just removing the person, but it’s my love for that person. I want them back to spiritual wholeness.

Cordeiro: We need to take a look at the aura of our staff. Not just the sin, but the temptation before that.

MacDonald: But if everyone who has had a lustful thought was disqualified, we’d all have to vacate the ministry.

Cordeiro: Is that a confession?

MacDonald: Lust – adultery in the heart – single incidents does not disqualify for ministry. But when it does cross the line, and you are no longer exemplary (to some degree), what process would you take? If a pastor on your staff disqualified himself morally, what are the steps?

Cordeiro: Remove him immediately from the position he’s in. Partly for him, partly for others. It’s not condescending. If someone has a contagious disease, you pull him out and put him somewhere he won’t infect others. And you want him to be healed. Watch his correctability. It’s not confession that starts healing, but contrition. Repentance – a true desire to change that comes from a heart that has been broken.

MacDonald: Can you put them in some non-ministry role? There’s the family, economics, the church is watching… we want to show grace and not be punitive. Can they stay on staff?

Cordeiro: We keep them on pay but remove that mantle of authority. People want to know – Are you going to do something pastor? But you don’t throw this man away. You get him help.

MacDonald: You want him to focus on seeing his life rebuilt.

Cordeiro: Yes, and I love his family. His wife is innocent.

MacDonald: But let’s say that I can barely hold it together financially as a church member and my tithe goes to this guy. He should get a job!

Cordeiro: If he doesn’t have a heart of correctability and he wants to be honored quickly, it’s a theatrical confession. That can happen. You let him go get a job.

Loritts: 2 Corinthians 7 gives the profile of true repentance. There is a profile I’ve seen through the years. If they are trying to protect their reputation, they have not repented. If they are negotiating, they have not repented. The sign of repentance is brokenness. Psalm 51. The broken and contrite heart. Contrition is the active remembrance of the pain my sin caused. Whatever it takes for me to be whole… it doesn’t manage sin. 85% of the time I’ve confronted people with moral failures, the confession does not come the first time around. Sin management goes on.

Cordeiro: The sensitivity to the Holy Spirit and the desire to self-correct. I’m paying you 8 hours a day to work it out with your spouse. The third thing is that we will reinstate you, maybe not to the same position.

MacDonald: But possibly?

Cordeiro: Very rare. It depends on how far they stepped over the line. I don’t wait until they get so far over.

MacDonald: Have you ever had it come out and you didn’t see it coming?

Loritts: Absolutely. You’re shocked, and you confront them. You ask the questions. What’s going on? Sin that has been going on for a long time leads to compartmentalizing. People are good at self-protection and covering their steps. I watch out for personality patterns where people avoid authority and direct conversations about their spiritual health. Always first one out the door when you talk about spiritual things. The shift in the conversation… not wanting to be held accountable. We tend to broadcast more about ourselves than we intend to.

MacDonald: A man grows silent about his marriage before it goes south.

Cordeiro: You’ll be ready to come back when your wife tells me you are ready to come back.

MacDonald: You can tell a lot about a man’s marriage by the countenance on his wife’s face.

Loritts: Sometimes, we think we’re being merciful and kind and gracious to people when we put them back too soon. We further entrench them in those habits and patterns. There needs to be a degree of health and consistency, affirmation from his wife, others who know him, so that you’re restoring them. You don’t want to take the cast off too soon.

MacDonald: I’ve found the tension in our church that restoration to fellowship is not necessarily restoration to leadership. If you fall morally and disqualify yourself, you return to Go, do not collect 200$, you start over and cannot be a pastor again in weeks or months. If a pastor  returns to vocational ministry, it won’t be in this church. It’s one strike and you’re out. That doesn’t mean he can’t go elsewhere if he is restored, but not here.

Driscoll: Often times, there is accountability for the male pastor, but not a relationship structure for the wife. My experience working with younger pastors… I’ve been in on more cases where the pastor’s wife is the guilty one than the pastor. So don’t just hold the man accountable, but tend to the wife. The friendship between the husband and wife is important. You can have ministry idolatry and stand shoulder-to-shoulder in ministry, but she be neglected and alone.

MacDonald: Someone is listening and heard that, and that’s them. What should they do?

Driscoll: Come clean before you get caught. Invite accountability in immediately. You’re confessing to your spouse. You will need help personally, and this affects the church pastorally.

MacDonald: The longer it goes, the worse it gets.

Cordeiro: Better to confess than to have to admit.

Graham: If the question is about when a person is ready for ministry again, I always fall on the side of protecting the congregation. I always think in terms of – get the guy back spiritually healthy – but talking to pastors restoring people, protect your church. There are sexual predators in the church. Most people who have a problem sexually have a pattern in their life. If they got caught once, they will probably do it again. It’s the bondage of sexual sin. What did Spurgeon say? You are ready for ministry again after moral failure when you are known more for your repentance than for your sin. But that takes a long time. My predecessor wanted 4 weeks of restoration and then come back. That can’t happen. Or the guy goes down the road and starts another church. I am a shepherd and must protect the flock from wolves.

Jakes: There was a time when I would hear the severity of the sentence and be against it, out of mercy. Any time you tell someone to come forward, but if you do, you can never be here again… I don’t know if that is realistic. What’s interesting though is that we’ve only talked about sexual failure, when 1 in 6 women in this country is beaten by someone who says he loves her. Why did we go straight to sex and stay there? We have another kind of problem in this room right now that no one ever says anything about. The other observation is this. In my experience, when something unhealthy goes on in the house, it is a symptom of other unhealthy things in the house. I assume if the wife is healthy enough to help her husband to recovery, you may have left the rabbit with the wolf. Just because the husband is the perpetrator does not mean the wife is innocent. That’s a naive perspective. You have to evaluate the health of the whole family. Because we are so focused on sin alone, we don’t see dysfunction that produces the sin in the first place. We don’t see the puss that causes the black head. We are dealing with morality from a legalistic mentality, adjudicating some aspect of justice. Most families are, to varying degrees, dysfunctional. If we really want to give care to that family unit, don’t let anyone go without inspection. Few people will tell you what led them down the path. There’s something going on in that house. There’s something going on in millions of houses – not just moral, sexual failures. Domestic violence is sweeping this country – colorless, classless, pastors, elders, deacons, angry men out of control. There are all sorts of ways to cross the line.

Furtick: We seem to be focusing on monitoring individual behaviors. We need to think of the culture of our staff. We want the staff to be healthy and less prone to these moral blow-outs. We’ve kept an eye on it from the beginning. My wife’s primary role in our church has been the care and shepherding of the lead staff’s wives. We want to keep that knowledge together and have our hearts beating the same. We hope by monitoring the culture of our staff (giving date nights to all staff and couples, paid for by the church or by my speaking income) we can be proactive and keep an eye on everyone’s relationship. We also want to provide off-ramps so people can get help when they’re starting to veer.

MacDonald: I didn’t think about domestic violence, truthfully. I don’t struggle with that, and I haven’t thought of it. We gravitated to sexual issues, but there are other issues as well.

Cordeiro: Develop a culture of holiness in your staff. Don’t let it be susceptible to the world’s lack of moral resolve. If we don’t put positive air pressure on the inside… I remember hearing from a lady whose husband was beating her, and I began to love her, and the Lord said, “Don’t love her with your love. Love her with your love.”

MacDonald: That’s why I get women to counsel women.

Cordeiro: We do too, but through referral. I refer them to women.

Loritts: We are often reactionary. The way I overcome weaknesses in my own heart is not by focusing on the weakness but by having a passionate heart for Jesus. To love Him more. To love His Word. I’ve never talked to anyone who fell morally who was consistent in their times alone with God. Never. And I’ve been in the ministry 40 years. (You can read your Bible legalistically, of course, but I mean having a hunger and thirst for loving Christ more.) I have standards. I don’t do lunches with women. I don’t travel with women. Holiness and passion, though, is everything. We need to orient people to the spiritual responsibility of leadership. Holiness matters. Character is important. Modeling is important. This is not your gig or your platform. You’re representing Jesus and the people who trust you and believe in you. Be like Joseph – “How could I sin against God and against my master?”

Cordeiro: You can teach what you know. But you will reproduce what you are. You’ve got to model it – a passion for the holiness of God. It sets a culture that makes the devil backs off. If he can remove the pressure from you and make you susceptible to the dirt of the world, he has free rein in your congregation.

Loritts: Years ago, when I was traveling a great deal, I had a conviction to ask God before I ever bring reproach on the name of Christ or on my wife and kids to kill me. I really believe that this issue of holiness is a big deal. There’s too much at stake. Too many people listen to us and believe in us. They buy our books, they tune in. Too many people. I don’t want to be used by the devil to knock them out of the race.

MacDonald: God doesn’t need us. God will find someone who will do His work. We are not as important as we think we are. Our first concern must be the reputation of Christ and the restoration of people.

Two of the largest churches in America, both in Dallas, one of America’s largest cities—one church is almost 100 percent black, the other almost 100 percent white. Is this a problem? What factors, beyond local diversity, are widening this divide? What causes such obvious segregating of the races? In what ways does being a minority worshiper hinder worship and service in the church? What churches are achieving success at breaking down these walls, and how? What do you see the other pastor doing better than your church does it?

Speakers: Jack Graham and T. D. Jakes, with Mark Driscoll moderating

Disclaimer: This is merely a summary of my notes, taken down live during the event. They may not be word-for-word and will need to be seen on video in order for their context to be fully understood. I will be updating this post every few minutes as the session goes on.

Graham: The way to destroy the racial divide is to get the roof off and the walls down. I got to know the Bishop for the first time ten years ago when we prayed together. We put our choirs together. We put our lives together in this. It was an incredible experience. Contextually, for me, I was born in 1950. So I’m old enough to remember in a small town in Arkansas asking my mother why one water fountain said “white” and one said “colored.” Segregation at its worst. In my home, there was prejudice and misunderstanding. (Prejudice is ignorance because we don’t know each other.) You have to overcome your upbringing, grow as a Christian, and then as a pastor learn how to seek progress. We see progress in the coming together of people in the last couple of decades at a much faster rate. We have a long way to go. There is still so much racial hate in people’s hearts and lives and churches. Some churches are dead because of hate. No other way to describe it. The churches do not welcome everyone. As a pastor, I began to ask questions. I worked in West Palm Beach, FL where things are more ethnically diverse. We can pray together and share platforms, but when we are actually in the trenches together serving and doing ministry together – that’s what took it to a whole new level. Talking about it, preaching about it cannot compare to actually living this out because when I know you, I can love you. When I see Jesus in you, I love the Jesus in you and you love the Jesus in me. We learn to be color blind at that level. I’m grateful that our church is making progress. We have 50-60 countries represented at Prestonwood. Most people go to church in their community. So as the community is changing, our church provides an atmosphere where everyone feels welcome and enjoys being there.

Jakes: I don’t think you can successfully integrate your church until you integrate your life. If all your friends are one color and you invite people of other colors in, they feel like props in a stage for your life. Twenty years ago, Caucasians would have been dominant in the city of Dallas. Today, over 50% of the population is Hispanic / Latino. Either you evolve or your church will diminish. Racism still does exist and is pervasive in religion and politics and the way we think. But let’s look at the lower tier of that. Most Americans are not racist. They’re just used to what they’re used to. During the agricultural age, slavery was promoted as a business decision. We went into the industrial age at the same time as the Civil Rights movement. That movement said we would not be held in bondage but it also put us together in a situation where we were working together. Even though we live in our comfort zones, we worked in the central marketplace of ideologies. At the erosion of the industrial age, we have gradually receded back into the trenches of our comfort zones. When you write the books you read, your vision will always be distorted. We need cross-pollination in order to have fruit. The Body of Christ will never be what it needs to be until others challenge her truths with their experiences. The embarrassing thing is that we as churches are not doing as well as the nightclubs are at integrating. We have to challenge that. There’s more to it than racism. It’s comfort. It’s the natural inclination to be in environments where people act like you, dress like you, think like you.

Driscoll: Is that idolatry? Worship of self?

Jakes: Absolutely. It is easier for whites to assimilate into black settings than vice versa. Why? Because we’ve always had to do it. You’ve never had to walk into a room where you are a minority and things didn’t fit you. That doesn’t make you a racist, but it does make you comfortable. God challenges us out of our comfort zones. This is a complicated issue. I started a church in the coal mines of West Virginia and ended up with a church that is 35% white. It can be done. But it has to be intentional. We need to irrigate our ideas. Without it, the media and every aspect of our society plays the music to your band. If we don’t change, we’ll find ourselves in a position where we acquiesce to racism without ever knowing we’ve been pitted against each other. I’m not talking about church. I’m talking about washing cars together. I’m talking about playing games, our kids playing together. There’s so much misconception. At some point, we have to be able to listen. When you do that, it creates a platform not only for the gospel but so that we can begin untangling the way we receive information. If we don’t get down to what is really true, do we really have gospel? That is the task before us. It means challenging everything. When Jack and I got together, our choir directors worked. His people sang. Our people sang.

Driscoll: Who sang better?

Jakes: There are some white people who can sing!

Graham: The main problem we have today on this issue is apathy, going back to our comfort zone. It’s indifference. Not intolerance, but indifference, which may be in some ways even worse. If you always grade your own paper, you get an A. If we look at ourselves and write our own paper, we think we’re doing good. We work with an organization in Dallas called Bridge Builders, to help our church bridge back into the city, and not only pray together but help in the building of the community. Not just us – the white folks helping poor people, but all of us working together to do something great for God. The world takes notice when that happens. They can pass on the prayer meeting, but when the world sees us working together, that’s what changes everything.

Loritts: I love your assessment, Bishop. Interestingly enough, there was more cultural diversity in the 50′s and 60′s than now. All the way up until I was 12 years old, I never knew I shouldn’t like people who were different than me. Until high school. I was hanging out with white friends and my black friends said I was selling out. My dad said to me, “Boy, don’t you ever let anyone tell you who your friends should be.” It takes courage to do this. I think the lack of moral courage that I see in the church of Jesus Christ is appalling. We give ourselves a pass by accepting our comfort and apathy. This issue is a higher issue. It reflects the integrity of the gospel. Jesus came to bring tribes and nations together. The call to Christ is a call to express the unity of the blood that brings us together. There ought to be something diverse about Christianity or it’s not authentically Christian. That was what Paul meant when he confronted Peter in Galatians. He said “You violated the truth of the gospel.” We need to kick this discussion up. I love your expression too, Jack. It has to be authentically spiritual people. We have to teach people about the implications of the gospel – far deeper than praying a prayer, being in the kingdom. What does it mean to live the gospel out and be distinctively Christian? That is the beginning of the pilgrimage of telling the truth about God in human history.

Cordeiro: In these last days, when the Spirit is moving powerfully, all of us ought to be saying the same thing. Intentionality is important. In Hawaii, the line of missions blurs. We have all kinds of people. It’s not integration or blacks and whites. It’s Pentecost. We’ve got to get to Pentecost. That’s got to be our goal.

Driscoll: How? For the average pastor who has a congregation that is comfortable, what recommendations do you have?

Cordeiro: It has to be intentional. The first beginnings have to be structural. Structure can decrease as maturity increases, but not until then. The intentionality of structuring something until it becomes comfortable can turn the tide.

Driscoll: Is being comfortable a sin to be repented of?

Jakes: I don’t think we can fulfill the Great Commission in our community. He said – Go into the whole world. You can’t pick the houses you’re going in. At a certain level, it’s sin. But it’s not always easily identified. I don’t want to use terms that are counterproductive. When you label something as racist, they have burning crosses in their mind and think, “They’re not talking about me.” But when you ask – “Who’s in your life? Who do you run with?” Then all of a sudden, I have to come out of my safety zone and enter your atmosphere. You almost have to go back to being a baby again, because you can’t trust what you see when you walk into my atmosphere, because you are seeing it from your history. And your conclusions are white conclusions about black realities, or black conclusions about Latino realities. You got to go to Ground Zero and learn how I think. How did I get here? All of us got here from generational ideologies. You are looking at it from your Presbyterian, Catholic, or Lutheran ideas. You have to become a student again and have the humility to do it. The sin is the pride that stops us from admitting we don’t know everything. That’s where the sin is. The arrogance that we must always be the teacher and not the student. Of all things that we blog about and tweet about, the thing that God hated the most is pride! Nobody blogs or tweets about that because often we have it and it goes untouched. It’s the pride of life that is the third dimension and strongest. We don’t preach about it because it grows in our garden without ever being weeded.

MacDonald: BAM! That was my contribution.

Question: As a white pastor in the south, how can I encourage having a racially diverse congregation?

Graham: Engage your community. Build relationships that are obvious. You say by your action you model this reconciliation. Find ways to work together on equal footing. We serve and help together. Bring people on your team, both volunteers and ministers on your staff team that are diverse. That says a lot. That’s not posing. It’s giving people an opportunity to serve Christ in your church. You ought to be able to serve, if you’re qualified and gifted, in the ministry.

Question: How do you make people of varying ethnicities feel “comfortable” in your church?

Furtick: I’m evaluating my failures in this area, listening to both of you guys talk. When I was in high school, I joined the gospel choir because I liked it and the people so much. It wasn’t a statement or a mission I was on – to be the white guy in the gospel choir. But I went to college, and I was the only white guy in the dorm. But we loved those guys. It was great what God did my freshman year in college. I thought – Would you ever think you would be friends with a white guy like me? He said, “Steve, you’re not white! You’re Hispanic or something!” We need true affection and love for one another. When we had Bishop Jakes preach in my church and you love his ministry and it’s not a crusade you’re on… it’s not “let’s have black preaching so our church can be diverse…” I have to go back and address more deeply my failures in this area. How did I go from being the kid in the gospel choir in high school and college (I was in Black Student Fellowship and they changed the name to accommodate me when I joined) – to having so many white people in my church? I have started addressing it. We’ll see whether or not we can change that.

MacDonald: If I could speak monolithically, I’d say that most white folks, suburbanites, are clueless when it comes to the city. James Meeks took me into the schools in the neighborhood around his church. The school in my neighborhood was replacing the track field with tax dollars, and the school in his neighborhood didn’t have lockers. I saw what was being done and thought, “I am a stupid man.” Another thing that is important is to see the benefits of the other worship. When we brought in African American music to the church, the volume went up. Our church was better because of whole body worship. Heaven will be great because the nations there will be worshipping. My son-in-law is African American. He is a joy to our family. The soil of my heart has been tilled by these subjects.

Jakes: We’ve got to have relationships. If I say something stupid, tell me. We’re going to make mistakes and we need to have people willing to help us. The greatest heroes of the Bible were multicultural. Moses down the Nile, trained in Egypt, lived in Midian, back to Egypt and then to the Promised Land. Paul taken as a missionary. God asks, “Who will go for us?” If you want to say “Here am I. Send me” then go beyond your area code.

What are the “majors” of Christian doctrine that cannot be diluted or denied for a person to be a Christian? How can we help one another move beyond the bare minimum of accepted belief, to a pursuit of robust, soul-satisfying, biblical substance? How should we relate to those who do not yet embrace the benefit and priority of sound biblical doctrine? Is there a difference between a person in error and a wolf in sheep’s clothing? What benefits derive from keeping the majors on a separate list and not letting the ‘minors’ divide us? Is it possible to love the truth without compromise and still work passionately for unity?

Speakers: T. D. Jakes and Mark Driscoll, moderated by James MacDonald

Disclaimer: This is merely a summary of my notes, taken down live during the event. They may not be word-for-word and will need to be seen on video in order for their context to be fully understood. I will be updating this post every few minutes as the session goes on.

MacDonald: I have an old friend and a new friend. I had no idea what I was getting into when I invited you. I didn’t know it would be so hard to get people in a room to talk. Mark, your book about sex – I endorsed it. I had to hire an assistant to answer all the emails against the book you wrote.

Driscoll: We wrote a book about sex. People see it as gross, God, or gift. You can read a book about friendship and sex and go work on those things, or write a blog about those things. I’d rather work on those things. Liberals think we’re too conservative. Conservatives think we’re took liberal because we talked about sex the way the Bible does.

MacDonald: How do you handle the criticism?

Driscoll: Honestly, I want to be humble and grow in humility. I want to turn my critics into coaches. I could’ve said that better. I think it’s a great book, and I don’t rescind it. The goal is not to win an argument but to help some people.

MacDonald: Apparently (to Jakes), there has been confusion about what you believe.

Jakes: My situation is not that different from his. My father was Methodist. My mother was Baptist. I was raised in a Baptist church. But I was raised in church without a committed experience with Christ when my father died. My conversion to Christ took place in a Oneness church.

Driscoll: By Oneness meaning?

Jakes: It was not a UPC church. It was similar.

Driscoll: Jesus only, modalism?

Jakes: They believe in Jesus Christ, he died and raised again. But how they explain the Godhead is how Trinitarians describe the gospel. I was in that church and raised in that church a number of years. I started preaching from that pulpit. But I’m also informed by the infiltration from my Baptist experience. I ended up Metho-Bapti-Costal. I’m a mixed breed. It is easy to throw rocks at people who you do not know, but when you see the work of Christ in their lives, you try to build bridges. So even though I moved away from what that church’s teaching, I didn’t want to throw rocks. Much of what we do today is teach people to take sides. But I believe we are called to reconcile wherever possible. My struggle was that in some passages, the doctrine fits and in other places it doesn’t. I don’t want to force my theology to fit my denomination.

(Jakes is going through Jesus’ baptism and the “let us” at creation.) The Bible made me rethink my ideas and I got quiet about it for a while. There are things that you can say about the Father you cannot say about the Son or the Spirit. There are distinctives. I’m very comfortable with that. There is very little difference between what I believe and what you believe. But I don’t think anything that any of us believes fully describes what God is. We in our finite minds cannot fully describe what God is.

Driscoll: We all would agree that in the nature of God there is mystery. But within that, for you, Bishop Jakes, the issue is one God manifesting Himself successively in three ways? Or one God existing eternally in three persons? What is your understanding now? Which one?

Jakes: I believe the latter one is where I stand today. One God – Three Persons. I am not crazy about the word persons though. You describe “manifestations” as modalist, but I describe it as Pauline. For God was manifest in the flesh. Paul is not a modalist, but he doesn’t think it’s robbery to say manifest in the flesh. Maybe it’s semantics, but Paul says this. Now, when we start talking about that sort of thing, I think it’s important to realize there are distinctives between the work of the Father and the work of the Son. I’m with you. I have been with you. There are many people within and outside denominations labeled Oneness that would be okay with this. We are taught in society that when we disagree with someone in a movement, we leave. But I still have associations with people in Onenness movements. We need to humble both sides and say, “We are trying to describe a God we love.” Why should I fall out and hate and throw names at you when it’s through a glass darkly? None of our books on the Godhead will be on sale in heaven.

Driscoll: Thank you for joining us. You don’t have to be there. You were on the cover of Time magazine.

MacDonald: Isn’t this your biggest gig ever?

Driscoll: The fact you showed up to dinner last night, I was shocked. I enjoyed you. I walked away going, “I appreciate meeting and knowing and enjoying that man.” Thank you for being gracious, courageous, and humble. You’re coming out of a Oneness background. You’ve demonstrated humility that you are changing your position in light of Scripture. How have you been treated by those on the side who you used to align with? Are you the heretic to them?

Jakes: Many of the circles I came from would never allow me in their pulpit. I have to read the blog article to read which heretic I am. The time has come for us to be willing to take the heat and have a conversation. If we do not do this, and we continue to divide ourselves by ourselves and with ourselves, we do it at the expense of decreasing numbers of new Christians in our society. This is the only thing that Jesus prayed that we can answer. He only prayed that we would be one as He and the Father are one. This is the one thing we have the power to answer.

Driscoll: Do you believe the Bible is the perfect, infallible Word of God? Do you believe God is Three Persons? Jesus is fully God and fully Man? He died on the cross for our sins? He rose from the dead? He is coming again? Apart from Jesus is no salvation?

Jakes: Absolutely.

MacDonald: You’ve honored us and shown us humility. Jesus stands with the humble. Get to those people who love my Son, believe my Word and express humility. I feel deeply in my heart that God is both Three and One. I believe the Scripture is clear that when we get to heaven, we will see Jesus. Jesus is the only God we will ever see. I believe in God eternally existing in three persons. The more I think of it, the more I think my head is going to explode.

Jakes: There is going to be one throne and one God we can see. The more I hear everybody arguing about this… we’re saying the same thing. There will always be people who define themselves by their differences rather than their connections. My soul leaps in celebration as we stumble to explain how God does what He does. That stumbling is worship. To humble ourselves and say, “God, Your thoughts are higher than our thoughts.”

Driscoll: Bishop Jakes, why are you hear?

Jakes: I love people.

Driscoll: I believe that.

Jakes: My heart yearns to see us know each other. There are so many reasons in society for us to get away from race, denominations, and stop allowing other people to tell us who each other is. The loss of civility among us, within and without the church, is killing our nation. We’ve got to learn to talk to each other, or we’re going to die.

Graham: I’ve been friends with Bishop Jakes for ten years. We started praying together in a public forum. I’ve found in him consistency in what he has said and what he believes. It’s amazing to me that these questions keep coming up. I hope this puts to rest a lot of this going on about the Trinitarian issue. When we see God, we see Jesus. There is one God. He has given Himself in Three eternal Persons. James, thank you for taking a stand to allow this conversation to take place.

Loritts: So many things bubbling in my heart over this. We need to stop letting people tell us who we are and to engage them. One of my concerns has been the subtle ways we justify slander, give credence to it, in the name of intellectual insight. Or we prostitute the word “discernment.” We feel so free to draw conclusions on people without talking to them in a spirit of love, compassion, and clarity. I am rejoicing. I pray that the exchange will take an amazing lesson.

Furtick: You are modeling something for a 31-year-old pastor that I hope will get in my soul. My hope is that you have exposed a pattern and that the point is not “Bishop Jakes is all right with us.” I hope this would help us assume the best. Not everyone will appear in this forum and articulate things as well as he does. We should do what 1 Corinthians says. Love is going to believe the best. It will always hope and protect. I hope this will send a message and the spirit of it will permeate the way we feel about people we don’t get the chance to know. We don’t need a checklist to say, “He’s all right.” The goal is love.

Cordeiro: WWII was won by the Allied Forces, not the United States. We had to join up to win the war. We can’t afford divisions where we strain out gnats. We have to put aside divisions to move the kingdom forward, otherwise we will get caught up in the small stuff and miss the war.

MacDonald: The issue of the Trinity is not a small thing. It is central to Christianity and a pillar of orthodoxy. However, when a man confesses his trinitarianism, and people say, “Is he trinitarian enough?” That’s when we need to turn down the rhetoric and let a man’s confession and fruitfulness speak for itself. 6000 churches in North America close their doors every year. Less than 20% of people attend church regularly. Only 2% of churches are growing by conversion. We need to wake up and figure out that the constant negative, destructive rhetoric is not helping the church. It’s hurting it. Jesus said they will know we are disciples by our love. Let’s go forward together. That’s the ball I’m carrying.

How can a pastor effectively manage the pressures of ministry? What are the warning signs for burnout? What do you see pastors doing today that is most detrimental to their marriage and children? What about pastors who are unmarried? What single action is most healing to your emotional health in ministry—and what action is most damaging? How does the care of your own soul affect the relationships that matter most?

Speakers: Wayne Cordeiro and James MacDonald, moderated by Mark Driscoll

Disclaimer: This is merely a summary of my notes, taken down live during the event. They may not be word-for-word and will need to be seen on video in order for their context to be fully understood. I will be updating this post every few minutes as the session goes on.

Driscoll: Wayne, you wrote Leading On Empty. You got burned out in Hawaii?

MacDonald: That’s where you go when you get burned out! Where does he go?

Driscoll: You sing publicly. How did you get burned out? You’re happy and pleasant.

Cordeiro: It doesn’t matter if you’re in a small or big church, everyone of us is susceptible to being burned out.

Driscoll: What was the moment? Was it gradual?

Cordeiro: You catch warnings on the way. You’re anxious about something. I’m sick and tired of people’s problems.

Driscoll: That’s a warning sign?

MacDonald: Oh no!

Cordeiro: I was jogging before a conference and I found myself on the curb crying uncontrollably. I said, “What’s happening?” Something had broken on the inside. When you’re in ministry, you can’t stop the train. You put on the mask, you grit your teeth, you dig deep, you ask for help, and you make it through. The problem is that what fuels you on the inside will also destroy you. A pastor’s life is bookended with sermons every weekend. I kept grinding it out. I had anxiety attacks. You can’t clear your lungs. You can’t breathe. You can be healthy, but it’s an emotional thing on the inside. Your seritonin levels get depleted, because you need to take a rest.

Driscoll: If you don’t take a sabbatical, you get a forced sabbatical.

Cordeiro: It used to be priority on God, spouse, family, and ministry. It’s now God, self, spouse, family, and ministry. Work on yourself, and you will have beneficiaries. I always thought I had to put myself last and always go forward with whatever wedding or appointment would come up. I thought my capability was equal to my calling. Wrong. I thought my capacity was equal to my commission. Wrong. A lot of people sin on the bottom side, where they don’t obey. I sinned on the top side, where I do things God hasn’t asked me to do. I go beyond what God has asked me to do. The devil doesn’t care what side of the boat you go off, as long as you go off.

Driscoll: Difference between calling and compulsion. It’s not just managing time, but energy in fulfilling your calling. What does that look like to be aware of it and to make the changes organizationally and with family to carve out that space and be healthy?

Cordeiro: I felt like Schindler. I could’ve saved one more marriage. I could’ve led one more person to Christ. There are always needs everywhere. I have to find out what God has asked me to do. I’m just learning that. The burnout took five years of my life. You think you’re Superman at first because you link four or five successes together and you think you’re bulletproof. We don’t forget that we’re pastors; we forget that we’re human. You don’t understand your humanity here. You sleep with your Superman suit on. You can’t be human anymore. When you’re leading on empty, you think people need a hero – to look up to someone following Christ. But then you think, I’m hurting, and that wouldn’t be a hero, would it? And then you die to yourself, because that sounds religious, and you start to fry. The road to success and the road to a mental breakdown becomes the same road.

Driscoll: We’ve all felt that to some capacity.

Cordeiro: I still preach, but the joy is gone. Psalm 51 – Restore unto me my joy. The devil can’t steal my marriage, but he can steal the joy of being married. He can’t steal my ministry, so he steals the joy of ministry and I drop out myself. He can’t do it, but he can push you to the edge and cause you to jump. When depression hit me, there were times that I thought the only way I can get out of ministry is die.

Driscoll: Other guys step on a moral landmine.

MacDonald: Because he wanted to blow himself up. Sometimes you feel trapped, and you feel a prisoner to your own fruitfulness.

Cordeiro: I remember counting down to retirement. I’m out of the forest now, but I can still feel the bark of the trees on my back.

MacDonald: I’ve been through two periods of time when I thought I would quit the ministry. The first time was 1998. The church was full, we had multiple services, we took time away. I was going to figure out a new plan. The Lord gave me some spiritual insights. I had neglected my soul. I had neglected my walk with the Lord. I was able to dial up my relationship with the Lord. But then I went back to a different place in 2009. I came to see that my way of relating to my church and elders was unhealthy. I tended to bear the weight of everyone else’s failed performance. I had to come to the place and look at the leadership team and say, this whole way of relating needs to be torn down. Some good men got around me and said, “we’re going to make this healthy. We’re going to distribute responsibility differently.” I had to make myself accountable to a group of people who could tell me, “You’re not going there. You’re not doing that.”

Cordeiro: When you’re going through this, you have to ask for help. The eye cannot see the eye. If there’s something wrong with your eye, you need someone else to help you. When the levels start to drop, you need help. Pride has to be dashed. Your ego has to be depleted. Humility is huge. What you learn when you’re at the bottom is what you need to remember at the top. I wish Jesus would lift me over the valleys and trenches. But what I’ve found is that Jesus takes your hand and drags you right through them. But here’s the thing – He will never let go of your hand. If we crash, it’s because we’ve let go of His hand. He will bring us through, and then we can turn around and strengthen our brothers.

Jakes: I’m awed by the eloquence with which this issue is addressed. Sometimes we focus so much on who we are and what we have and what we think and believe, that we lose sight that we are brothers. Last night, we find that we are similar in ways that are important (dealing with stress, etc.). The problem exists because we put the oxygen mask on the passenger and feel guilty about putting it on ourselves. The tragedy is that it is a silent scream. When the leader goes down, he never says a word. It’s the silent scream of a tormented soul so fixed on a hero-complex that we cannot think of ourselves as Lois Lane.

MacDonald: Or Clark Kent, you mean!

Jakes: Pardon the gender issue. We have not been taught to scream. We are not given permission to scream. Whatever we go through, when we go under, all the sharks come out to eat the new victim. And the whole church comes around to watch the lynching. I think we’re seeing it happen more and more because our world is getting faster. It used to be a calendar for a year. Things are changing every thirty days. The pressure is mounting.

Driscoll: Steven, in light of the internet, additional pressure comes on you. How does it factor in?

Steven: My wife said “get off Twitter.” I said, “I want to, but there’s so much good stuff. I hate to leave it behind.” We heard so much good stuff about what God was doing. But the one negative would punch a hole. I would get into an approval trap quickly. I’m personally in an unhealthy place, and this is good in that it exposes vulnerabilities and when I’m angry at one person. I’m taking notes from this. I need to drop a registration fee because this is so helpful for me. I’m praying the Lord will help me keep the joy in ministry. Don’t let the devil take your joy, your moment. Don’t do the ministry but miss the moment.

Cordeiro: Everyone of us has to get somebody permission to speak into your life. If you can’t name a person, get them!

MacDonald: Everyone needs someone who can look them in the face and say, “You are neglecting your wife.” But giving permission is not enough, because it takes courage. You have to keep assuring people that everything will be good even if they tell you the truth.

Jakes: At the end of the day, in addition to having someone with whom you can be transparent, we have to practice on telling the truth – we who herald the truth often do not often tell the truth beyond the truth we herald. We hide behind the truth we herald because it’s safe. We can preach about Jeremiah and John because you can avoid seeing yourself. It’s like the Wizard of Oz. What is going on behind the curtain? Broaching the subject today helps pastors ask, “Do I have a person? Can I come out from behind the curtain?” You cannot critique what you do not see.

Cordeiro: You don’t know if you can trust people that deeply. One betrayal or one person bilking you – it’s like a cat on a hot stove. It won’t sit on any stove.

Jakes: I like to have a plethora of relationships that do not compete with me, but complete me. You have to broaden your scope and your thinking, and you have a sounding board with someone who doesn’t echo your truth. Everything you say is right when you’re in the Grand Canyon.

Question: What is the most helpful thing a wife can do to prevent her husband’s burnout?

Graham: In ministry 40 years. Married 40 years.

Driscoll: Big year for you.

Cordeiro: Married to the ministry?

Graham: A wife needs to allow her husband to be himself at home. My wife has never let me get away with being something that I am not. Honesty and transparency is critical. Accountability. Your wife should be your #1 accountability person. But that can be a problem because our wives are not really equipped to handle all the pressure of ministry. Dumping that pressure at home constantly can create tension in the marriage. Deb has been fantastic all these years in keeping it real at the house and keeping our kids real at the house. What happens with ministers’ homes is that the wife and kids see someone different at home than they do in church. You want your kids later on to say that Dad was the same guy. This is a God-moment for a lot of people who are watching. It’s liberating. When I went through a burn-out period, driven by prostate cancer, I thought I was the only one, that I was weak. When you’re in a burned out condition, you dread the day. When I went through that, Deb was so great. But at the same time, she told me to talk to somebody. Talk about humbling. Me, the pastor, talk to someone about what I’m going through? It was one of the best things I ever did. Don’t be so proud to get the help you need.

Cordeiro: Some notable figures in the Bible went through that. Elijah in 1 Kings 19. He was depleted. He wanted to die. Moses in Numbers 20. We get tired and I want to beat on some people, but you can’t so you shove it inside and beat on yourself.

Driscoll: I asked Grace to ask me how I’m doing rather than what I’m doing. That changed the direction of the conversation when I’d get home during the day.

Question: How often should a pastor take a sabbatical?

Loritts: In ministry over 40 years. There’s not an easy answer. I think someone of us who mentor younger leaders are partly complicit in this trajectory. Everyone focuses on conferences about leadership development, when we need to focus more time on leader development. We need godly brokenness and a focus on our forever need for the Lord. That’s been my salvation. My identity is not my ministry. There needs to be a profound simplicity in terms of how we approach these things. God hasn’t been using me because I know how to plan and strategize. Stop looking in the mirror and singing, “How Great Thou Art!” God has been using crooked sticks for years. Younger leaders get on a treadmill of performance, when the truth of the matter is, God breathed on us. Gifts are oversold. It’s what He uses. They are not our value. They’re like Moses’ staff. Stop separating your relationship with God from what you do. Lead with that instead, and that’s when the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts and helps us listen.

Driscoll: Closing with a request to Wayne Cordeiro to pray.

Summary: What elements must accompany a faithful presentation of the gospel? What can a pastor do to ensure that others in his ministry are presenting the gospel in all its fullness? What are some ways you have seen decisions for Christ effectively acknowledged? What responsibilities does the preacher have to lead people in a public response to the gospel? When have we oversimplified or made the gospel formulaic? When have we made the gospel too complicated, and demanded more in our evangelism than the Scriptures do?

Speakers: Steven Furtick and Crawford Loritts, moderated by James MacDonald

Disclaimer: This is merely a summary of my notes, taken down live during the event. They may not be word-for-word and will need to be seen on video in order for their context to be fully understood. I will be updating this post every few minutes as the session goes on.

MacDonald: Nothing matters more than the gospel. In our desire to protect it, we must let it loose.

Loritts: We gravitate in recent years and get confused between what is the gospel and the effectiveness in sharing the gospel. We’ve gotten sloppy in terms of the framework. We’ve become pragmatic. If it produces results, it defines our theology. Pragmatism takes us to the wrong place. What is the content that does not change and what is the holy, anointed God-given motivation and approach? The content of the message itself (what the gospel is) and secondly, what is the holy approach given to us in the Scriptures that maintains the boundaries. Pragmatism flows out of that. People end up in heresy because they gravitate toward what works and they edit the content rather than questioning what exactly is working and why. We’ve given too much of a broad definition of the gospel. In its restrictive sense, what does it take to enter the kingdom of God? Paul did not have a speech impediment when he wrote 1 Corinthians 15:3-11.

MacDonald: So good to come back to that. The non-negotiables. You have the banks of the river. Contents can’t change, but we must stay within the riverbanks. Steven, you talk about presenting the message creatively and you say it isn’t watering it down.

Furtick: I would never give a gospel presentation without talking about the sinless life of Jesus Christ, and man in his sinful state needs a Savior. I would never leave out the cross and resurrection and the need to be saved by grace through faith. But when we hijack the term gospel, we begin making it mean our particular propensity to believe certain things and our theology. I love the gospel. The greatest evidence is that I am giving my life to preach it, not critique it. A deep and solid love for the essentials is so important. I was a traveling youth evangelist. I saw a lot of things that were good, but other things were confusing, coercive, manipulative. Kids crying because they’d been up 4 nights straight. It became so troubling to me that when we started our church, I wouldn’t give a public invitation. I was so reactive to what I’d seen done wrong that I took the message of Jesus (which is offensive – double-meaning, it offends and is on the offense), and I was playing defense with the message. Through studying the Scriptures and through seeing people far from God come into our church, I started to come under conviction that it was wrong for me to not invite people boldly to receive Christ. I studied the Wheat and the Tares in Matthew 13. It means that I ultimately can’t judge someone’s heart. We read the book of Acts over and over again. 3000 baptized that day. Public, immediate profession of faith. I focus my energy on the authenticity of the message, to make sure I am presenting the truth of the gospel, and to leave the Lord ultimate judgment. I do believe that the Lord has called me primarily to preach the gospel, not to critique it. There’s a place for us to achieve clarity, but I’m going to err on the side of urgently pleading with people to respond to the gospel, knowing God alone can save them.

Loritts: I affirm everything you said. Doing cartwheels in my heart. Inherent in the gospel is urgency. That is a reason why certain methods (lifestyle evangelism, relational) may be okay. But what we have lost is that hell is forever! FOREVER. The style of preaching today that is so conversational and nonchalant and journey-ish is not biblical preaching. There is inherent urgency in the cross of Jesus Christ.

MacDonald is standing up like Eric Mason, when he likes something.

Loritts: That doesn’t work for you, James. What I press on our young preachers, is… Please! Don’t be casual about eternal matters. Secondly, the balance you have to hold is that you give people an opportunity to respond, but you don’t get them to respond. That’s the approach you have to hold. We are not peddlers. You don’t dilute the gospel to get people to respond. You don’t violate the message. You give them an opportunity. I think sometimes our theological constructs get us in trouble. I warn younger Reformed guys… Please stop front-loading the gospel. When you are drowning in Lake Michigan, do not point out the features of the rescue boat! Point them to Jesus. Don’t cloud the cross. Let Jesus do His work. We get confused with our constructs. We preach what someone else says about the gospel instead the gospel. I’m lost. He died. He rose again. I turn from my sin. I trust Him.

Furtick: The only thing that was in my heart about conversational style… even that, to me, we need to make sure we don’t alienate our brothers who are preaching, like Paul, through tears. Sometimes there is boldness that comes through in a different way. I want to be careful to understand someone’s context and the entirety of their ministry. I’ve heard of people who others said don’t preach the gospel, but then I listened to them and heard the gospel. We just had a funeral for a 17-year-old boy. They asked me if I would preach his funeral. When I gave his message, I pleaded with the people. There are hundreds of people who need to hear the gospel. My theology says God will save them if they confess and believe. I asked the family if I could ask people to raise their hand to give their hand to Christ. I slowed down, because you have to be careful that people don’t answer from emotion. When people raised their hands, I could tell the family, Riley’s life was not in vain. I’m not saying that everyone who raised their hands necessarily gave their hearts to Christ. But I’m going to err on the side of asking people to respond.

MacDonald: It’s not the tone that’s the urgency, it’s the sense that the gospel is leading to a response. Urging people to respond to the message they’ve heard.

Cordeiro: We are giving people an opportunity to step over the line of faith. We don’t always do it well. But thank God, opportunities are being given. That’s what is diminishing in the church.

MacDonald: I got saved so many times as a little kid going to church. I don’t know which one took. But I’m glad the Lord saved me!

Jakes: I respect both viewpoints, and I don’t think they are contradictory. There are parallels of the same truth. Our age wants a recipe for everything. When we try to get our methodology down to a science, we negate the mysticism of the cross. Jesus healed a blind man through spoken word, and the next time by spittle and clay. We keep trying to formalize something beyond formula. Sometimes we will excommunicate someone who God is using differently. We all think differently. We process differently. If you don’t learn it the way I learn it, you can’t learn. If the end result is bringing people to the cross of Jesus Christ and their sins are remitted by the washing of the blood, then that is what is important.

MacDonald: I talked with Bill Hybels not long ago. All his staff was reflecting on this point. Write down the five things that if you were to leave out of the gospel presentation a person couldn’t get saved. They spent several months discussing those things. He was concerned about the staff not being on the same page of the gospel. Mark, what’s your list of five things? We don’t want to oversimplify.

Driscoll: Sinless God, we have sinned against. Jesus came, died, buried, resurrection. Repentance and faith.

Graham: Can’t add to that! God gave us the pattern of confessing our faith in New Testament baptism. I would be interested in hearing you reflect on your views of baptism. I don’t know how they processed the 3000 on the day of Pentecost. But baptism is what identified them as believers. Evangelism is not complete until they are baptized.

Furtick: First time I met Jack was when we were doing spontaneous baptisms. I preached the gospel, what baptism is, what it represents, how it identifies you with Christ. We talk about how following Christ is not like following someone on Twitter. When Jesus commands, we listen. Baptism is the first command. It is very important to our church. I wish that every time I gave an invitation we could baptize everyone right there and right then. I baptized my son this past Sunday at the end of our revival. He’s only six. I had someone on Twitter saying that I had made yet another false convert.

Driscoll: Stop being on Twitter and go for ice cream with your son!

Furtick: People on Twitter were looking up the people we just baptized and telling them that their baptism didn’t count because I preach a false gospel.

MacDonald: That is pathetic.

Furtick: My people who are on Twitter don’t know the difference. We have to be very clear. I believe in a strong gospel presentation, but I want to be really slow to judge someone as a false teacher. I want to love actively and offensively.

Loritts: I don’t disagree with you when I talk about passion and urgency. I’m not talking about tone and style. People must sense the priority and urgency in your heart. I’m not talking about style. There is an arrogance that sets in when we elevate our approach or strategy to the gospel when we take the urgency out of the gospel.

MacDonald: Some preach the gospel carefully and accurately, but without urgency. The best way for someone to confess Christ is not raising hands, signing a card, walking an aisle. The biblical mandate is for people to picture the death, burial and resurrection by being baptized. We must drive toward the urgency of calling for a response.

Loritts: Jesus puts baptism in the Great Commission. I agree. It is an act of obedience.

Furtick: I have friends who preach creatively. Some friends take shots because of what they’ll do to get people’s attention. But we know the power is in the gospel, the foolishness of the cross. I applaud my friends who are willing to tear off the roof to get people to Jesus. If we are too quick to criticize someone’s methodology, we align ourselves with the Pharisees who are watching to see what Jesus will do, rather than celebrating what He has done in healing someone.

Driscoll: It’s easier to be a critic than a pastor. God works in spite of me, by His grace.

Graham: When Moody preached in Chicago, he sent everyone home, and then the fire hit. He promised God he would never again preach without giving people an opportunity to respond. The method of response is not the issue.

MacDonald: We are ambassadors for Christ. To be casual and indifferent does not honor the truth of the gospel.

Graham: Don’t you think that evangelistic churches get characterized as shallow? Not deep? Shouldn’t we try to overcome that?

MacDonald: I’m working on a book called Vertical Church. The key is not to be an evangelistic church or discipleship church. The focus must be on bringing glory to God. I don’t care just about getting them in, but growing them up and sending them out again.

Question: How does emotion play into a gospel presentation?

Furtick: It plays heavily – both positively and negatively. Engaging people emotionally is absolutely within the bounds of the New Testament preaching and teaching model I see. We all do things in our church to meet physical needs. It can become manipulative, but there is also a danger in a cold, indifferent preacher. I’d rather have a hot heart, going into Christmas and Easter like I’m going into a burning building bringing people out. I’d rather apologize to God for trying something rather than being indifferent.

Loritts: Somehow to be passionate and emotional is inauthentic – how crazy! How can you share the gospel without being loving? We are whole people. We must care about that person’s soul. That gives authenticity to our message.

MacDonald: Martin Lloyd Jones said that a man who can speak dispassionately has no right to be in the pulpit. A theology that does not catch fire is a defective theology. God help us not to compromise the gospel, but God help us to not be so up in our heads that we can’t open the lion cage and see God change hearts.

Summary: Is there a future for denominations? Will networks simply replace them, or will they reinvent themselves? What can denominations offer that networks of churches cannot? Describe the health of world missions and missionaries as you see them serving around the globe. Is the model of sending missionaries through a mission agency still effective? Or is church planting through healthy churches the way to go? Is there a lack of accountability plaguing most missionaries? How can that be changed? How does para-church help or hinder the local church in world missions?

Speakers: Jack Graham and Mark Driscoll, moderated by James MacDonald

Disclaimer: This is merely a summary of my notes, taken down live during the event. They may not be word-for-word and will need to be seen on video in order for their context to be fully understood. I will be updating this post every few minutes as the session goes on.

MacDonald: Take the whole gospel to the whole world with your whole heart. How can we steward this awesome message of the gospel more effectively to the ends of the earth?

Graham: No question that denominations are declining in impact. A lot of them should go away, especially if their theology and commitment to world missions is nonexistent. I’m part of the Southern Baptist Convention, not technically a denomination. We are a loose-knit association of churches, not unlike what you would call a network. We’ve chosen to cooperate together. I’m a Christ-follower first, a Baptist second, and a Southern Baptist third. We can do more together than we can independently. With the task we have at hand in world evangelization, getting together for the sake of the gospel is still viable. What I love about Southern Baptists is that it is a local church movement. It’s not a top-down hierarchical movement. We have an amazing amount of people who have given and resourced this denomination for ministerial training and world evangelism and church planting. We have 150 years of history, that indicates that we’ve been pretty good at what we’ve been doing. We need to get a lot better. People aren’t looking for labels, but for churches preaching truth and grace. Labels and denominational identity are decreasing, but there’s still high participation among Baptists in cooperating together. I’m in. I’ll stay in as long as we stay committed to a doctrinal resurgence. We’re the only denomination that reversed course when we were drifting left. Now we’re in the process of a missional resurgence. We’re paring things down. North American Mission Board is focusing on church planting. It’s a healthy denomination and we’re going to continue to be about the business of fulfilling the Great Commission, assisting and serving churches.

Driscoll: I’m not a Baptist, but I love the Baptists. The denominations provide things the networks don’t. Regarding Acts 29, we work across a few dozen denominations. What we are seeing are younger leaders who want dual affiliation. There are certain things the network can provide that the denomination can’t, and vice versa. There are great schools. A network doesn’t have those resources. Connections to global missions – like Cooperative Program, etc. I think we’re going to see more people with dual affiliation. In a network, I get to learn from people outside our team or tribe. I learn from others. It also gives us a place to be in community and have friendships without the politics or criticism that comes from within your tribe. A lot of guys like the benefit of both. What is transitioning now is what is your primary affiliation. Do you put Baptist on the sign? Or Acts 29 on the website? Or Sovereign Grace? Some say network is first allegiance, others say the denomination is first allegiance. The important thing is that churches are planted and people meet Jesus. Lots of money is being given to missions, but is a lot of work being done? The results are suspect. Is the culture being penetrated? Or are we having a hard time making a dent? Are we setting up a small, modernistic subculture in which people convert to a particular way of life?

MacDonald: Enough money has been raised in the North American church to pay for the Bible to be translated in every language almost four times. What should we do? Raise more money? Where is the hole with this money in it?

Graham: The question is the issue of accountability and stewardship. Best moment of my president of the SBC was when the 12 regional leaders of the International Mission Board… it was like a Pentecost. The integrity, the effectiveness of what these guys are doing… it’s only getting better. Take Haiti for example. 1800 volunteers (all from churches – mobilized through the denomination) treated thousands of patients. Shared the gospel with 25000 people. 272 new churches born. Is this thing worthwhile? Are they doing anything? These are some small examples – a microcosm of what happens on a daily basis. Can we do better? Absolutely.

MacDonald: My BS meter runs up when I hear about 272 new churches. What do we mean by churches? Do you know how long it takes to plant one church? It’s a lot of work.

Graham: The way you plant and the way Haiti plants is different. Where a pastor and a group has gathered together and established a ministry in a community? Are you judging how big it is?

MacDonald: You’re talking about a true foothold. You believe there are 272 Southern Baptist works with a pastor doing ministry in a group.

Driscoll: Statistically, in 5 years, how many will be in existence?

Graham: Good question. That doesn’t mean you stop throwing out the seed. You’re asking if it’s effective. I say they are. There are a lot of them. With the IMB, there are 163000 churches overseas of all different sizes, with their own pastors, indigenous. Denominations don’t have a little sizzle right now. I’ve always been intra-denominational. It’s about relationships. Yet, I am committed to the fact that what we have is worth saving. It was worth saving theologically. Just imagine if there was no Southern Baptist Convention.

Driscoll: Let’s do that!! Don’t ruin the moment.

Graham: Seriously, if there was zero and it went away completely. We know God is going to raise up others, ten more to take its place. But the influence of the salt and light of the culture, in the communities, its influence worldwide – if it went away, it wouldn’t be a good thing.

Driscoll: On record, I praise the Lord for the Southern Baptist Convention.

Graham: No question that cooperative evangelism across denominational lines is a good thing. There is a strengthening of the stakes theologically and a broadening of the tent for people of like faith.

MacDonald: Southern Baptist is not about a person. The network seems to be establishing the platform of a leader. Do you have concerns?

Driscoll: Godin talks about tribes with a leader and a way to communicate. Networks are tribes. Leader or leaders say where they’re going, what they’re doing. The same is true of the SBC. There are tribal leaders and tribes within the SBC. There are networks within the Baptist denomination. Reformed guys. Charismatic. Global missions. House church people. Tribes within the broad umbrella. What’s true of the network is true multiple times over in denominations.

Turning to the bullpen

Graham: The peanut gallery.

MacDonald: I’d like some peanuts.

Loritts: How do you keep fluidity in the movement? Denominations move toward institutionalization. It kills flexibility.

Graham: By focusing on local churches. Local churches stay fluid. If it becomes top down, that’s the death. And I think it should happen. What concerns a lot of us is people trapped in liberal denominations. Grandma is buried outside the church. She’d leave too if she could! Southern Baptists are plateaued, but not within ethnicities. We are growing in ethnicities. Pentecostal denominations are the only ones actually growing. You keep it fluid by focusing on the local church.

Driscoll: There’s a movement and an organization to support the movement. But when it becomes an institution, the focus is on preserving the institution, and then it becomes a museum.

MacDonald: Man, movement, monument, museum.

Driscoll: We’ve got to get back to movement and mission. That’s true for all of us in local churches. Talking about what we used to do, rather than doing something.

Graham: You go to the SBC, it’s like a snowstorm hit. Gray hair. Young leaders are trying to make this decision. Younger pastors will have dual affilition. I think that’s a good thing. Denominational executives probably think it’s bad, but as a pastor, I think it’s good.

Jakes: I’m supportive of dual affiliation. The only caveat I see among independent churches is when a church runs into crisis (morally, financially), there is no authority there to come in and speak to that church. It’s the wild, wild west. If you tighten the lanes, they jump off the boat.

Driscoll: We have network captains, regional leaders with established churches. That church and their elders would be involved with the pastor and we would be involved in removing the pastor.

MacDonald: All we can take away from the church is its name. What are you able to remove? What changes for that guy?

Driscoll: The network is not a prison, but a home. You don’t have to be there, you want to be there.

MacDonald: That was so warm. I was going to cry right there. You’re not normally that tender.

Driscoll: Just happy to be here. When someone who knows and loves you looks you in the eye and says “I worry about your soul.” The best discipline is in the context of loving relationships. Sometimes we have more relational authority because of the investment.

Furtick: We are a Southern Baptist church. From the perspective of the 31 year old, I’m not playing the youth card. Just maybe to say to my denomination – let’s not be too cavalier to dismiss infrastructures that people have sacrificed to build and we have benefited from. Where is the honor for prices paid in the past? We need to have respect for the pioneers who paved the way. When we decided to affiliate with the Southern baptist Convention, people said we wouldn’t reach anyone. But I had been trained in two Southern baptist schools. We felt a sense of loyalty (not that supersedes loyalty to Christ) that we should stay in the SBC.

Cordeiro: Are we going to be empire builders or kingdom builders? If we can continually reinvent ourselves back… it’s leadership. You have key leaders in a denomination. If the leaders are good, the denomination is good for that generation. The caliber of leadership within those frameworks… that is what makes the framework.

MacDonald: The character of the leaders and the caliber of the leaders is more important than the framework.

Text question: Has the church focused on global missions at the expense of local mission?

Graham: No. Local churches start in Jerusalem. If you punt on local evangelism and only do global ministry, you are failing the task. A whole new movement of people are going overseas in Haiti or Romania, and they come back as stronger witnesses locally. Enlarge the heart of an individual and the church, you have better home missions. Seattle is a mission field. Dallas is a mission field. Don’t export what you’re not doing at home.

Text question: Mark, why did you choose not to affiliate with a denomination?

Driscoll: I had no denominational background. We looked for a Bible-believing church in Seattle, and the one we were interested in was independent. I want to help lead Acts 29 across multiple denominations. My being independent allows me to bring together guys from lots of tribes.

Graham: You are loved and respected by younger Southern Baptists, Mark, including me. At Mars Hill, it is raw evangelism in a dark culture. There is a great deal of respect among Southern Baptist leaders for Acts 29 and what you are doing.

Driscoll: If we can love and serve and help leaders across denominations, I feel called to that.

MacDonald: I’m not anti-denominational. I was ordained in the Baptist church. But as we’ve tried to plant churches, we’ve found that denominations come forward and put strictures on us. The denominational distinctives have kept us from going further. Why has Acts 29 had the struggle to connect with denominations?

Driscoll: We are well-loved by SBC leadership, E-Free leadership. Our experience has been very warm and friendly, more than I would have expected. Not everything on the internet is representative of the influential leaders of the denomination.

Graham: Clarify for me. Reformed? Or Reformed-thinking? If you are going to be in Acts 29, do you have to confess Reformed theology? If I’m only 3 in the tulip?

Driscoll: If you get 4, we let you in. If you get 3 and I like you, we’ll flip a coin and let you in.

Graham: So Acts 29 is more narrow than the SBC.

Driscoll: We’re not trying to be Calvinists. We’re trying to be evangelists.

MacDonald: I’ve been blessed by my friendship with you, Jack. You are not sectarian. You respect everywhere you see the gospel going out. Mark, you cooperate with everybody who loves Jesus Christ and is committed to this book.