[...] Cheap Law - Tullian Tchividjian [...]

[...] invoked Romans 4:15. You might say that Haidt inadvertently zeroes in on the distinction between “cheap Law” (which concerns itself with behavior) and, um, “regularly-priced Law” (which includes [...]

What a fantastic post and thanks for turning me onto Mr. Dink. What a treasure of encouragement and hope that is found in the simple proclamation of Christ crucified.

http://onceforalldelivered.blogspot.com/

What an excellent answer to "cheap grace!" I have heard this phrase used so many times as an attempt to motivate by using "law/guilt." I have even heard it used to promote guilt for "resting" too much in Grace (How can that be possible?)--when the pastor wants to "see" "change" -- or make things happen.

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph 2:10 WHO prepared the works? -- and WHEN?

Follow the Spirit -- don't climb any ladders.

Pastor Tullian,
Would it be helpful to add *for justification* to the end of this sentence: "The idea that God accepts anything less than the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ *for justification*." As imperfect and shot through with sin as our holiness is in the process of sanctification, God still accepts our works as pleasing, e.g. "Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord" (Colossians 3:20).
Grace,
kb

I want to believe this but I struggle with the full counsel of God concerning these things. This author seems to be almost mocking those who seek to love God by obeying him? I have only read half your book so far. I hope to finish it this weekend so maybe the answer is in there somewhere....From reading through your blog, I know you will all label me as a legalist. I don't feel I am. But I am open to being shown so. I don't feel I can add anything to my salvation at all. God did it all through Christ. But what about all the verses in the NT give us instruction/direction after we are given the free gift of faith?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%201:3-15&version=ESV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%2012:12-17&version=ESV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=james%201:19-27&version=ESV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2015:4-17&version=ESV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+1%3A16&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:58&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%205:8-17&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%204:1-4&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:16&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus%202:14&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2010:24&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=(Romans%208:13&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%203:5&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%206:11&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%202:22&version=NIV
to name a few......
Are they all ONLY there to show us we can't? Thanks.
Perhaps these passages are all covered in a another book somewhere?
All of the verses I find on your blog and so far in your book are specifically about salvation. If anyone has time to direct me. Thanks!

Pastor Tullian, Thank you so much for your faithfulness to the gospel of grace. I grew up in a Christian home as an MK and then a PK, graduated from Bible College, was a youth pastor for 3 years and never "got it". You have been monumental in opening my eyes to the gospel of grace within the last year or so. It's almost like I've just become a Christian. The gospel has lit a fire of burning passion in my heart. I can't put into words how thankful I am for you and your faithfulness in preaching the gospel with no apologies. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

You're right Tullian...that is gold.

No conditions here---Westminster larger catechism, question 31---With whom was the covenant of grace made? The covenant of grace was made with Christ as the second Adam, and in him with all the elect as his seed.

the costly price of the OT law has been paid in full by Christ. He gives His children new life by His Spirit. And His children walk in this new life. You can rebuke those who try to be perfected by the flesh, but there are God's children out there who desire to be conformed into His image by and through the Holy Spirit. Generalizing caricatures help by..........?

Pastor
I just read this the other day and thought it was very insightful.

Excellent teaching by John Dink! Thanks so much.

This reminds me of how Joshua (Joshua 24), after recounting God's mercy and His faithfulness to His promises - delivering Israel from all her enemies - exhorts them to put away their false gods and to fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth. The Israelites essentially declare, "We will do it!" Joshua, understanding the perfection required by anyone who would serve God on the ground of their own works and the weak view the people had of the righteousness demanded, replies: "And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve Jehovah; for he is a holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgression nor your sins."

The Israelites and their watered-down Law-keeping needed to be humbled and stopped in their tracks by the Law in order to be lifted up by the LORD's free mercy.

Calvin: "But Scripture humbles us more, and at the same time elevates us. For besides forbidding us to glory in works, because they are the gratuitous gifts of God, it tells us that they are always defiled by some degrees of impurity, so that they cannot satisfy God when they are tested by the standard of his justice; but that lest our activity should be destroyed, they please merely by pardon." -- i.e. God's free mercy and pardon in Christ alone.

and in WCF 14:2
"... But the principal acts of saving faith are accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace."

Hey Brandon,
A few thoughts...

I fully believe that righteousness is imputed to us in Christ apart from any works that we do or did, making us justified and our salvation eternally secure in Him. What I find problematic is saying that the Lord Jesus’ active obedience of the law is imputed to us, as either a necessary requirement for justification or as regarding our life and work.

me: We know that Jesus as a man lived his entire life without sin. And on that basis was the perfect Lamb of God, without any blemish (perfect sacrifice), that he might fully satisfy and pay for the penalty of ours sins. So by His death for us on the cross our sins are paid for and we are forgiven.

But where does this righteousness come from that is imputed to us? We are human and need a righteousness that is of a perfect man, be it ours or someones else's in order to satisfy the holy law of God. And what is the righteousness of a perfect man if not perfect obedience to the law of God? Jesus, the Son of Man (the second Adam) who humbled Himself to become a man, was perfectly obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. His perfect righteousness imputed to us is the righteousness of His perfect law-keeping as a man, the Head of a new humanity. This is the point of Romans 5:14-21. Adam's disobedience (sin) was imputed to all mankind, thus all sinned in Adam. Jesus' act of righteousness, i.e. perfect obedience (vs. 18) is imputed to all that believe that they be made righteous before the law. So Paul concludes in vs. 19: For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous. Luther joyously refers to this as the "sweet exchange."

An excellent book to read on justification is John Fesko's Justification: Understanding the Classic Reformed Doctrine

cheers...

Hi brother Jack,
I agree with John Thomson here. I believe God took up the penalties and consequences of our sins upon Himself in the person of the Son through the death of the cross, so that our debt of sin would be forgiven and we declared righteous--this is God’s righteousness manifested apart from the law (Rom. 3:21-26).

The Lord Jesus’ sinless humanity and perfect obedience is what qualified Him to be our Savior (if God had not become a man, He could not suffer and die on our behalf; if any spot or blemish were to be found in Him, He could only die and suffer the wrath of God for His own sins and not on our behalf; if He were not perfectly obedient even unto the cross none of us could be saved because there would be no redeeming death) but not what needs to be imputed to us in order for us to be justified, declared righteous in the heavenly court. Through Adam’s offense, sin and death entered into the world and we were really constituted sinners, under God’s condemnation; and the Lord Jesus’ one righteous act did bring justification of life to all men. But His does not show that the Lord Jesus’ perfect obedience (which includes His one righteous act of dying for the sins of the world in obedience to the Father’s will) is imputed to us.

I realize that plenty of Reformed theologians see the imputation of Christ’s active righteousness, even His active law-keeping during His earthly life, as essential to the gospel and the meaning of justification. But I think it is a non-essential theological construct. The worse form of it is when, like John T. describes, theologians start talking about “Christ’s righteousness” as some kind of thing that Christ accrued in His earthly life and which is then abstracted from Christ and imputed to us, apart from our being in Christ (in the Person Himself) and united to His life in heaven.

Accordingly, I see the basis for why genuine growth, fruit and works are pleasing to God not as a matter of Christ’s perfect obedience being legally imputed to our otherwise imperfect and unacceptable works but rather a matter of Christ with His life really living, growing, being formed, and bearing fruit in us. Infused moral virtue is not required for justification, but Christ living in us subjectively (something greater than mere moral virtue) as we abide in His life is what makes for genuine growth, fruit and works that are pleasing to God. God predestinated us not just unto justification but unto sonship, many sons actually being conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son of God that He might be the firstborn among many brothers (Rom. 8:29; Eph. 1:5). God’s full plan of salvation is not just to justify the ungodly so that we won’t suffer eternal perdition. Rather, through an organic process of renewing, sanctification, transformation and conformation unto the image of Christ consummating in the glorification of our bodies, God is building up His chosen and redeemed people corporately into a kingdom, Body, dwelling place, new creation and bride that is one with Him and expresses (glorifies) Him, the final stage of which is the New Jerusalem. This is pleasing to God not just because of an imputation of righteousness that satisfies His moral law, but because it is the fulfillment of His eternal plan to fill redeemed humanity with Himself in Christ (Eph. 3:14-21; 1:17-23; 4:11-16) that all things in heaven and earth would be head up in Him (Eph. 1:9-11).

John T,
Christ claims to sanctify himself on our behalf... "for us" (John 17:19). You're right that sanctification is connected with our justification but it isn't our alone effort that sanctifies. It is as much a gift as justification.

Some scriptures to ponder in light of this post Isaiah 28:9-29, Romans 9:30-33, 1Peter 2:4-10
"See to it that no misses the grace of God..." Hebrews 12:15
These scriptures teach the importance of not missing God's grace.
"For there is a way that seems right to man, but in the end it leads to death." Proverbs 14:12

Jack

I invite you to read the posts I wrote a year or so ago on IAO. You write,

'But where does this righteousness come from that is imputed to us?'

It comes first of all in the death of Christ. In the death of Christ the penalty for sin is completely dealt with and therefore we are declared no longer guilty in the court of God. In a word we are righteous. A not guilty man is a righteous man.

I know, I know... reformed thought says we are simply innocent or cleared but not righteous. This is neither sensible nor biblical. A man before a human court is either unrighteous or righteous, there is no inbetween. The same is true in the divine court.

Romans 3 makes it clear that we are justified by the death of Christ. Calvin himself is completely clear on this. There is simply no reference to the life of Christ but to his sin-bearing death. There is no OT pattern of a life lived as a substitute for another. Only a sacrified animal could clear sin. Only the death of an unblemished animal. The life gives value to the death but only the death cleanses/atones.

The death of Christ was so glorifying to God that in justice/righteousness he could do nothing but raise hime from the dead. Thus the resurrection and exaltation of Christ is the vindication/actualization/materialisation/deaclaration/God's verdict on the death of Christ. It is a righteous declaration in the life of resurrection of the righteusness of Christ's work. In this verdict/realisation of righteousness we share... he was raised for our justification.

The law-keeping life of Christ has v irtue in that it qualifies him for his sin-bearing death but it is not impueted to us; what we needed was not a righteous life imputed but a sin-bearing death. We needed one who would take the penalty of a broken law and in so doing deliver us from law altogether.

I live now in a resurrected Christ. I do not need a law-keeping life imputed for I live in a realm/world where law has no claim. New creation in Christ is beyond this world where law has a claim

Reformed thinking, particularly the brand that comes from Westcal and has little time for union with Christ as the route of justification is mistaken and inadequate in this area. The life of Christ that is mine and with which I am united is not his life on earth but his life in heaven. That is why justification inevitably involves sanctification. Sanctification is but the logic and corollary of all our justification involved - that is, an old life judicially ended and a new life begun in union with Christ.

Hello brother Jack,
I fully believe that righteousness is imputed to us in Christ apart from any works that we do or did, making us justified and our salvation eternally secure in Him. What I find problematic is saying that the Lord Jesus’ active obedience of the law is imputed to us, as either a necessary requirement for justification or as regarding our life and work.

If this were the case, I think it is hard to see why at the judgment seat of Christ there will be distinctions of reward or shame/chastisement for eternally saved believers (1 Cor. 3:10-15; 2 Cor. 5:9-10; Rom. 14:10-12; 1 John 2:28). If Christ’s active obedience is imputed to us, how could there be distinctions of reward or shame/chastisement at the judgment seat of Christ? Wouldn’t we all have the same perfect obedience of the law imputed to us?

The other workers will be saved (assuming they are believers) yet their building materials (legalisms, man’s philosophies, etc.) will not produce fruit in the church that will stand the fire of God’s righteousness and therefore they will not enjoy any reward of those labors. It’s not about receiving or not receiving reward due to personal merit or holiness.

I think this might only move the question back one more step. Both kinds of workers described in the passage must be believers because both are saved, but why is it that one group of workers ends up characteristically building with valuable materials (do God’s will) and the other group of workers characteristically building with worthless materials (not do God’s will) in the first place? And why should the first category enjoy “reward” as a result of their work, and the second category “suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire”? Doesn’t the Spirit produce good work in all the believers? So how could some enjoy reward and the others suffer loss and be saved yet only as through fire, if the Spirit works good work in them all?

I believe that the reason why our growth and fruit can be well-pleasing to God is not because Christ’s personal righteousness is imputed to us (i.e. our imperfect works being treated as if they were perfect works of Christ and therefore legally acceptable according to the Law), but that genuine growth and fruit is the expression of Christ actually living in us, growing in us and bearing fruit through us as His branches. I see it less as a question of how legally imperfect or perfect some act or fruit is but whether the source, nature and expression is our independent, natural life (wood, hay and stubble: worthless building materials) or Christ’s life in us (gold, silver, precious stones: valuable building materials). It’s less in the realm of a poor cello performance being treated as if it were an absolutely perfect performance (even though it is really not) to meet the criterion for acceptance, and more like a glass being filled with water and the cup of water therefore being well-pleasing. What matters is not how “perfect” or imperfect our vessel (2 Cor. 4:6-7) is, but that it holds and overflows with Christ as the water. I believe that all believers are equally justified but that our work can be of one of two sources (the life of the self or the life of Christ), and hence we see that Christ and the apostles continually reminded, encouraged and admonished the believers to abide in Him, to walk in the Spirit, and pursue Christ, who is not only our Redeemer outside of us but our life subjectively.

Hello Brandon,
And thank you for your thoughts!
Brandon: "If Christ’s active, perfect law-keeping is forensically imputed to us, why wouldn’t such an imputation of law-keeping be in effect regardless of whether we work or do not work, love or do not love, obey a command or not obey a command?"

My take: As Paul teaches (Rom. 4:5-6), in this bit of Good News, we were justified (imputed righteousness) through faith before we did any worthy works, in fact all our pre-justification works were wicked:

"And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works..." The focus is that this is the ongoing blessing for believers. That is, we don't work to get the blessings, we inherit them as children through faith alone.

Brandon: Why wouldn’t Christ’s active righteousness imputed to the believers equally cover all works to make them equally acceptable?

My take: It does equally cover all our "moral" works, those that must be perfect in order to receive salvation. In the verse Paul as an apostle/worker is speaking of various Christian workers who are building on the foundation he laid and whether they are building with eternal things that will last or things temporal which will not last. To the first, he will not only be saved but enjoy the fruit of building with the gospel of Christ which is "the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes" (Rom. 1:16). The other workers will be saved (assuming they are believers) yet their building materials (legalisms, man's philosophies, etc.) will not produce fruit in the church that will stand the fire of God's righteousness and therefore they will not enjoy any reward of those labors. It's not about receiving or not receiving reward due to personal merit or holiness.

All who truly have faith in Christ are justified, and some measure of good works will flow from their true faith (for they are new creatures in Christ) as evidences of that faith. And I would say that two main "fruits" of one born of the Spirit are 1)a life of faith and repentance and 2)doing good to one's fellow man.

blessings...

[...] Cheap Law | Tullian Tchividjian |  In Matthew 5, Jesus shows unambiguously that the greatest obstacle to getting the gospel is not “cheap grace” but “cheap law”–the idea that God accepts anything less than the perfect righteousness of Jesus. (Read post) (COMMENT)  [...]

Regarding Romans 8:4, Douglas Moo in NICNT, p482 writes (hat-tip to Mark McCully)—

”Some think that Christians, with the Spirit empowering within, fulfill the demand of the law by righteous living. However, while it is true that God’s act in Christ has as one of its intents that we produce fruit, we do not think that this is what Paul is saying here.

First, the passive verb “be fulfilled” points not to something that we are to do but to something that is done in and for us. Second, the always imperfect obedience of the law by Christians does not satisfy what is demanded by the logic of this text. The fulfilling of the “just decree of the law” must answer to that inability of the law with which Paul began this sentence. “What the law could not do” is to free people from “the law of sin and death”–to procure righteousness and life. And it could not do this because the “flesh” prevented people from obeying its precepts.

The removal of this barrier consists not in the actions of believers, for our obedience always falls short of that perfect obedience required by the law. As Calvin puts it, “the faithful, while they sojourn in this world, never make such a proficiency, as that the justification of the law becomes in them full or complete. This must be applied to forgiveness; for when the obedience of Christ is accepted for us, the law is satisfied, so that we are counted just.”

If then the inability of the law is to be overcome without an arbitrary cancellation of the law, it can only happen through a perfect obedience of the law’s demands. See Romans 2:13 and our comments there.

In the last part of Romans 8:4, the participial clause modifying “us” is not instrumental—”the just decree of the law is fulfilled in us BY our walking not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit”–but descriptive, characterizing those in whom the just decree of the law as ‘those WHO walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” Paul does not separate the “fulfillment” of the law from the lifestyle of Christians. But this does not mean that Christian behavior is how the law is fulfilled….”

I find this to be a helpful bit of exegesis...

Jack

Hi Mitchell,
I think we all need the continual experience of forgiveness. At the same time, I also think that laying hold of objective truths and promises such as “…and by his stripes we are healed” or “Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be annulled, that we should no longer serve sin as slaves” (Rom. 6:6) strengthens us subjectively such that we don’t simply wallow in a sense of futility and hopelessness about our condition.

On the one hand, our flesh is hopelessly corrupt and remains an active principle in our lives; on the other hand, since Christ has already dealt with the flesh on the cross (Rom. 8:3) now we can walk by the Spirit (Rom. 8:4; Gal. 5:16-26), pursue Christ (Phil. 3:7-16), bear fruit by abiding in Him (John 15:1-17), let our light shine among men (Matt. 5:16), do all things in Him who empowers us (Phil. 4:13), etc. It seems to me that the former is acutely before your face but the latter not so much, and that’s alright. But I do believe that it is fair game to bring up passages like Gal. 5:16-26 and others when we’re discussing what is or isn’t “law” that distracts from grace, or what the Lord Jesus and the apostles actually had to say about the Christian life. That some people misapply “…and by his stripes we are healed” as a panacea for physical illness, even though physical illness is not an immediate subject of the passage, has little import upon the apostles Paul’s description of the different results of walking by the Spirit or not walking by the Spirit, which is an immediate subject of the passage.

Hi Jack, thanks your thoughts.
If Christ’s active, perfect law-keeping is forensically imputed to us, why wouldn’t such an imputation of law-keeping be in effect regardless of whether we work or do not work, love or do not love, obey a command or not obey a command?

Or why does the apostle say that the work of each will be tried by fire, for which some will receive “reward” and others will “suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire” (1 Cor. 3:10-15). Why wouldn’t Christ’s active righteousness imputed to the believers equally cover all works to make them equally acceptable?

I personally believe that the main reason why genuine Spirit-born growth or fruit can please God (Col. 1:10; 2 Cor. 5:-10; 1 Thes. 4:1) is because it is the expression of His life in Christ. For instance, God is love, the life of God is embodied in Christ, and as we abide in Christ as the true Vine (John 15:4-5) we spontaneously bear fruit that expresses His life and (somewhat indirectly) fulfills what is morally commanded by the law (mainly love). The nature of the Spirit-born work that makes it pleasing to God is not that it is the work of the fleshly, imperfect human life being legally treated by God as if it were a perfect deed that the Lord Jesus did during His life on earth, but that it is something of Christ’s life in resurrection added into and expressed in and with the redeemed human life.

Brandon,
"...and by his stripes we are healed."
This is a promise. But there are those who take this verse and turn it into something that will "fix/heal sickness" or some even go so far as to say we should never get sick.
I fully believe each individual has a subjective experience but it is just that... subjective which doesn't do others much good to spend a tremendous amount of time on vs. the objective truths which we should be laying claim to.
It doesn't take too much examining of my life (which I do often) to realize a life of repentance and "experiencing" perpetual forgiveness is what is needed. I try hard and I fail hard. There is a saying in the music world "if you're going to miss a note... miss it loud" and I can tell you when it comes to the Christian life "I miss many notes"... loudly.

Brandon,

I don't have Moo before me. But let me simply say that, yes we should love one another. To love one's neighbor is to fulfill the law. Paul is paraphrasing Jesus' words on the summary of the law. Paul points us in the direction of loving our neighbor, for it is a command. And for the one who loves perfectly, he fulfills the law... But only if he loves perfectly. For to fulfill the law obedience must be perfect. No grading on a curve. Christ has fulfilled that for me. So I should love my neighbor, i.e. actually do things for his best good (love). My loving, though imperfect, is accepted as righteous (fulfilling the law) due to the merit of Christ's perfect obedience (love) of the law imputed to me and received through faith and is now my own as an adopted son of God.

Where's the Holy Spirit? He convicts and points me to the path of righteous living that as a new creature (new heart , new right-will) I desire and He points me to the sufficiency of Christ's perfect obedience and sacrifice that cleanses not only my "willful sins", but the lacks, deficiency, and stains of sin that cling to even my best works.

So we obey and love yet imperfectly. And our Father in heaven accepts our works (which we are commanded to do) for Christ's sake.

Jack,
How does Moo exegete the following passages?

"Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,' and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
-Rom. 13:8-10

"For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"
-Gal. 5:13-14

Hi Guys

Dropping into this discussion with only the barest skim of above comments. Jack, I like Moo a lot, but I do think he gets Roms 8:4 wrong. As a verse on its own it could be either (descriptive of who or descriptive of how, individuals or instrument) however I do believe the following verses very strongly point to the instrumentality of the Spirit in righteous living (the how rather than who). Note too the explanatory conjunction of verse 5.

Rom 8:5-14 (ESV)
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Note too that theses verses stress that the Christian life is just that, a life. Life is about experience. Indeed experience in one way or another is the very nature of life. I don't know why there is afear of this. Life (as an entity, physical or spiritual) is not simply an objective fact, it is a subjective reality/experience. If it is not, then it is not life. Life is about thinking/believing/feeling/willing/desiring/doing. It is vigorous and active. It is a compendium of experiences. Life is essentially active.

In one sense life cannot be objectified by the person living it; he is living it and cannot be detached from it. We cannot talk about the Christian life and then make it merely passive or reduce it to a series of objective truths/propositions or simply something that happens to us - this is a negation of life.

In the Holy Spirit (for our life is lived in him we all agree) life is full of experience; love, joy, peace, righteousness, self-control, faithfulness, endurance, etc.

All these aspects of life do not simply happen to us they are experiences in which we are fully engaged and involved. Moreover, this 'spiritual' living fulfils the law, or in the words of Galatians, 'againmst such there is no law'.

Hi Mitchell,

As you have the time; otherwise don’t feel obligated or pressured to respond. I think it’s alright if you feel that your Christian experience is “bland.” It doesn’t make you less of a Christian. Personally I tend to be rather melancholy by disposition but I wouldn’t make my experience the norm. :)

I would suggest that a person or group of people who are thoroughly enjoying Christ are probably more conscious of Christ than about their self and trying to analyze and adjust their motives. The enjoyment of Christ is what swallows up our impure motives. If the gospel of Jesus Christ can free us from trying to earn or merit justification by works, then it can also free us from living unto ourselves that we may live unto Him (2 Cor. 5:14-15).

Visiting a poor family and giving them a box of food and supplies will help them physically and (to a large extent) psychologically, whether it’s given to them by an atheist, a Buddhist, a Shriner or a Christian. I agree with what you’re saying here. But I do think that when we “spend time with Jesus” (as one commenter said) we might (in addition to any outward activity) express something mysterious, something of the Spirit--an “aroma” or “atmosphere” of Christ and His grace, His tenderness, His loveliness--that causes people to thirst and long for God, to taste something spiritual, or to turn their heart to Him. We ourselves may only be conscious of the aroma of Christ, not that we’re “spreading” it or that others can sense it.

To use an illustration, I remember seeing a youtube video by a famous stage magician/illusionist, an outspoken atheist, where he was talking about a man who gave him a Bible after one of his performances. The man didn’t do that much outwardly, he just gave him a Bible and said something simple like “God loves you” or something. But for whatever reason, the stage illusionist was impressed with the man who gave him a Bible, so much that made a youtube video about it. He couldn’t explain what it was about this man that impressed him so much; he could only keep on saying emphatically “he was a good man...he was a good, good man.” It was rather mysterious. My guess is that this man, whoever he was, had been spending time with the Lord so that the atheist stage illusionist could sense that there was something different about him.

I believe that you and I are largely describing the same attitude--one of belief and trust in Christ’s work for us and in us. What I’m emphasizing is that the Bible reveals that Christ is not only our redeemer objectively but that He is our life subjectively and that this entails quite a lot. Seeing the truth in Scripture concerning the Lord Jesus living in us and us living by Him enlarges our borders of belief and trust and our appreciation of Him. I also believe that the Lord Jesus’ and the apostles’ words about “pursuing” or being “diligent” in matters of growth, fruit-bearing and sanctification are rooted in this reality. Hence, this can inform the discussion about what sanctification is and how we are sanctified in a way that trying to make it all fit into the difference between law and justification cannot.

We do well to be careful how we speak. There is an under-realized eschatology afoot. Let us keep in mind these and many other words of the apostles:

Eph 3:16-19 that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, (17) so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith--that you, being rooted and grounded in love, (18) may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, (19) and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Col 1:11-12 May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, (12) giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.

1Jn 4:4-5 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. (5) They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them.

Hey Brandon,
I read your comment about Watchman Nee. I had heard of him but didn't know much about him. From what I have read about his theology he is one of the brands I've been on the run from. He falls into the charismatic teachings which emphasize the "inner spiritual life" which sound heavily influenced by pietism. Again I'm being very specific about the objective work done for me. There is a subjective work done by the Holy Spirit... where we believe, He bears witness with our spirit, convicts, imparts faith/trust etc. But guys like Nee lose me (seriously) when they begin to use language that they audibly engage God in conversation about theological matters and then present themselves as speaking for God to the masses. Not good in my book. They're placing me in position to stand against what God says when I don't buy into their theology. Dangerous stuff. I fully believe the Faith was once for all delivered to the saints. Revelation is complete... done.

In my reading of Watchman Nee, he made a distinction between introspection (the self turning inward and analyzing itself), which he described as severely damaging to the Christian life because it actually builds up the self, and proper subjective experience which is based upon focusing on God’s objective Word.

I agree that subjective experience can be overemphasized if it is not based upon the objective truths in God’s word or if it is used to look down upon others. But an abuse of subjective experience doesn’t mean we should throw out the personal or subjective dimensions of the Christian life. In an earlier comment I posted a number of passages where I think it is obvious that seeing and believing what is in them will tend to make a positive, conscious difference in our lives. For example, Romans chapter 8 is a different experience than Romans chapter 7.

Passages like Gal. 5:16-26 may seem too subjective, “pietistic” or "higher life" to some because:

- 1) it shows that there is a difference between walking by the Spirit and not walking by the Spirit

- 2) there are visible results of walking by the Spirit, such as by no means fulfilling the lusts of the flesh (v. 16) and bearing fruit of the Spirit rather than the works of the flesh (v. 19-26)

- 3) there is apparently a difference between walking by the Spirit and trying to keep the law with our own efforts (as depicted in, say Romans 7); Paul says, “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law” (v. 18)

But here labels like “pietistic” or "higher life" don't tell us whether something is biblical or not biblical, or whether it is more or less biblical than alternative views. I’ve tried to engage a number of self-identifying Lutherans on how the apostle Paul’s word “But they who are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and its lusts. / If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit” (Gal. 5:24-25) fits into their framework that says that all imperatives are “law” and all indicatives are “gospel.” Is “walking by the Spirit” the law or law-keeping that waters down grace? If not, what is it, and what’s the difference?

Some continuously claim that bearing fruit can only lead to pride and not bearing fruit can only lead to despair, and if you disagree you're a pietist, legalist or Roman Catholic, end of story, but I think that most people would realize that such an argument contradicts what the apostle Paul tells us here. The impression I sometimes get from those who argue in this way is that the Christian life is little more than going to church once a week to hear a message and receive the objective sacraments and that anything more than that is pietistic, legalistic or Romish religious ladder-climbing or at best no more significant than good works common even among non-believers. But is that really what was presented by the Lord Jesus and the apostles?

Jack,
I caught on fairly quickly to the language of Nee that pointed us inward to what is subjective (the tendency of pietism). I guess pietism isn't bad if one can embrace it without looking down their noses at those who don't follow in stride with them. As a Southern Baptist once you get turned inward you don't know what is the Holy Spirit and what is your own striving.

Thanks for your 1 1/2 cents!

re: Watchman Née...
In the seventies I was in a church for almost ten years that was highly influenced by the teachings of Nee. II think I've read every one of his books or almost. There is much good there. But there are things to be concerned about. He was very much influenced by the Higher Life movement of the early 1900's. His book, The Spiritual Man is problematic. His book The Release Of The Spirit is very pietistic... A focus on inward brokenness experientially in order to "release" the Spirit within the believer. Also a questionable (at a minumum) ecclesiology. More than I can include in this comment. That said, he was a tireless preacher of the gospel, trained many workers who sacrificially spread the Word under the most trying circumstances, and suffered for his Lord in prison under the iron fist of the Communist, dying in that place.

So read him for yourself. But that is my one and a half cents.

Wow. Thanks for posting this: (Very helpful. BUT, see more questions below! Thanks!)
”Beginning to See,”
DO ALL TRUE BELIEVERS EXPERIENCE THIS AT LEAST ONCE IN THEIR EARTHLY LIFETIME “AS” PROOF THAT THEY HAVE THE SPIRIT??? DO ALL TRUE BELIEVERS BEAR FRUIT? OR NOT?

......If a person believes in the Lord Jesus and has been baptised, and they feel terrible about a besetting sin they can’t overcome or are worried that they don’t have enough “fruit” as an evidence of their salvation because they care whether they belong to Him, I’m inclined to believe that they are a regenerate believer. An unregenerate person would not care so deeply about whether they belong to the Lord or about their sins or apparent lack of fruit.

I AGREE. BUT WHAT ABOUT THE SCARY VERSE WHERE JESUS SAYS THAT THOUGH SOME THINK THEY KNOW THE LORD THEY REALLY ARE NOT KNOWN BY HIM? MATTHEW 7:True and False Disciples

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

DOES THIS VERSE WORK WITH YOUR SUGGESTION/ANALOGY HERE?

I believe that Christians should have the assurance of their salvation from the very beginning of their Christian life (since it’s based on what Christ has already done, not what we do) but that many Christians don’t for various reasons. Feeling assured of salvation is not a prerequisite to salvation but rather something that we can help our fellow brothers and sisters to gain.
HMMMMMMMMMMM

There is such a thing as Christian nominalism, especially prevalent in ostensibly Christian societies. This is where people say “oh, I believe in God and Jesus” and perhaps go to church out of social custom or habit, but are indifferent to the Bible or the truth of the gospel, or treat sin as if it were not sin. They “believe in God” but it may make almost as little difference in their system of values and daily living as believing that Benjamin Franklin was a historical person. The Lord Jesus plainly taught that there would be false believers (tares) among the genuine ones (cf. Matt. 13).

GOOD POINTS. THANKS.
Lordship salvation teaching became popular in Reformed circles to combat this kind of nominalism, but I think “fruit checking” can be pressed too far. How do you know if your fruit is good enough or if you have enough works?
TRUE. BUT YOU SHOULD HAVE SOME.
I DO STRUGGLE WITH THOSE WHO SEEM TO HAVE SO LITTLE, MAYBE A LITTLE BIT NOW AND THEN EVERY OTHER MONTH OR SO. I DON'T KNOW?
IS IT SAFE TO SAY, MAYBE, THAT WE SHOULD AT LEAST BE GROWING IN FRUIT? I DON'T KNOW?


How high is the standard? If there’s no way to objectively measure these things and there is always room for improvement, how can you ever know in this life if you are saved? I believe this can cause unnecessary anguish in genuine believers.
YES. THANKS.

Instead of pursuing fruit and works to earn or secure their eternal salvation,
NNNNNNNEEEEEEEEEVVVVVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRR TO SECURE!

the believers in question are led to pursue fruit and works to try to learn whether they were ever regenerated in the first place.

I THINK I AM MORE LOOKING FOR IT IN OTHERS WHO CLAIM THE NAME. I FEEL SOMEWHAT DISLLIUSIONED BUT DON'T WANT TO SOUND LIKE THE OLDER BROTHER. I AM REALLY HAPPY THAT ANYONE IS SAVED, EVEN IF BY THE SKIN OF THEIR TEETH. BUT IF SOMEONE IS 'SAVED' AND THEN LIVES YEARS WITH SHOWING FRUIT ONLY INFREQUENTLY, WELL, I GUESS I CAN'T JUDGE. JUST SEEMS TO ME THE BEAUTIFULY VERSES ABOUT BODY LIFE SHOULD BE HAPPENING FOR ALL TRUE BELEIVERS, NO?

NOW, DON'T WORRY Y'ALL! I AM NOT ONLY LOOKING AT (SOME WOULD /MIGHT SAY JUDGING!) OTHERS, I ALSO DO WONDER IN MY OWN LIFE HOW I CAN CALL MYSELF A CHRISTIAN, SOMETIMES AND STILL BE LAZY OR INDIFFERENT SOMETIMES TO SPIRITUAL THINGS OR WHATEVER . SUBTLE THINGS. I DON'T FEEL LIKE MURDERING ANYONE (BUT I DO GET ANGRY/IMPATIENT SOMETIMES).

THANKS FOR YOUR CONTINUED THOUGHTS/TEACHINGS.
SLOWLY SEEING........

Mitchell,

Here are a couple simple quotes from Watchman Nee in The Ministry of God’s Word in which he condemns direct conversations with God as a source of new theology or “new revelation”:

“We must condemn all independent revelations and independent ministries...Today we have the Bible before us; we cannot release any independent so-called 'word of God' which is unrelated to God's established Word. If our speaking does not match God's established Word, what we have is heresy and a deception of the devil.”

“All ministers of the word depend on God's previously spoken word. No one can receive revelation apart from the Bible. Anyone who receives a revelation apart from the Bible is receiving heresy, something which is absolutely unacceptable.”

--
@”Beginning to See,”

DO ALL TRUE BELIEVERS EXPERIENCE THIS AT LEAST ONCE IN THEIR EARTHLY LIFETIME “AS” PROOF THAT THEY HAVE THE SPIRIT??? DO ALL TRUE BELIEVERS BEAR FRUIT? OR NOT?

I think that all believers do, even if they’re not that aware of it. If a person can’t pinpoint a definite “experience” or “event” of bearing fruit it doesn’t mean that they aren’t a genuine Christian. I don’t think it’s that hard, spectacular or extraordinary to (as the apostle Paul says) “be filled in the Spirit” (Eph. 5:18). It’s as simple, common and ordinary as picking up a Bible and praying over a verse with an open heart to the Lord Jesus.

If a person believes in the Lord Jesus and has been baptised, and they feel terrible about a besetting sin they can’t overcome or are worried that they don’t have enough “fruit” as an evidence of their salvation because they care whether they belong to Him, I’m inclined to believe that they are a regenerate believer. An unregenerate person would not care so deeply about whether they belong to the Lord or about their sins or apparent lack of fruit. I believe that Christians should have the assurance of their salvation from the very beginning of their Christian life (since it’s based on what Christ has already done, not what we do) but that many Christians don’t for various reasons. Feeling assured of salvation is not a prerequisite to salvation but rather something that we can help our fellow brothers and sisters to gain.

There is such a thing as Christian nominalism, especially prevalent in ostensibly Christian societies. This is where people say “oh, I believe in God and Jesus” and perhaps go to church out of social custom or habit, but are indifferent to the Bible or the truth of the gospel, or treat sin as if it were not sin. They “believe in God” but it may make almost as little difference in their system of values and daily living as believing that Benjamin Franklin was a historical person. The Lord Jesus plainly taught that there would be false believers (tares) among the genuine ones (cf. Matt. 13). Lordship salvation teaching became popular in Reformed circles to combat this kind of nominalism, but I think “fruit checking” can be pressed too far. How do you know if your fruit is good enough or if you have enough works? How high is the standard? If there’s no way to objectively measure these things and there is always room for improvement, how can you ever know in this life if you are saved? I believe this can cause unnecessary anguish in genuine believers. Instead of pursuing fruit and works to earn or secure their eternal salvation, the believers in question are led to pursue fruit and works to try to learn whether they were ever regenerated in the first place.

Brandon,
I'll check into the guy more. I honestly don't know anything about him. Sorry if I misspoke. The website I went to referred to him receiving new revelations about different doctrines within the church. May have been the wrong site to go to. Thanks.

But guys like Nee lose me (seriously) when they begin to use language that they audibly engage God in conversation about theological matters and then present themselves as speaking for God to the masses. Not good in my book. They’re placing me in position to stand against what God says when I don’t buy into their theology. Dangerous stuff. I fully believe the Faith was once for all delivered to the saints. Revelation is complete… done.

Sorry Mitchell, this is disinformation. I'm very familiar with his teaching and he didn't believe in audible conversations with God or continuing revelation (revelation beyond what is already written in the Bible) but strongly condemned both. Recently he was recognized in the United States Congressional Record for his pioneering work in spreading Christianity throughout China. (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?r111:52:./temp/~r111alg3g7:: ) I stand by my recommendation of his The Normal Christian Life for this topic.

Quoting an earlier John Dunn comment:

"The New Covenant understanding of Christ’s resurrection life and power IN US by the Spirit is one of the most misunderstood, confused, and unexperienced blessings of contemporary Christianity."

"My sincere prayer is that the Old Covenant law-veil of Moses would be removed from the hearts of this generation (2 Cor 3:14-16) and that the Church of Jesus Christ would again glory in the New Covenant ministry of Life . . . the ministry of the Spirit (2 Cor 3:6)."

To which I say, AMEN! The first fruit of the Spirit is at hand...the church needs to repent and believe.

"There is an under-realized eschatology afoot."

What?

Oh dear.
Brandon E, you wrote:
" In general, I feel more sensitive concerning sins and simply confess the ones the Lord makes me aware of (without trying to introspect dig things up) rather than having a dull, foggy, guilty and weighed down conscience. When I am struggling and striving to do things with my own strength, or doing something for my own pride and glory, I tend to have an uneasy sense of something blocking my fellowship with the Lord. It’s not always the case and I do go through spiritual “peaks” and “valleys,” but there’s no need to get introspective or discouraged as if everything depended on feelings. We don’t have to “analyze” ourselves to see how much we think we’ve grown, because our opinions about ourselves are not trustworthy. We just go on in the Lord’s daily grace."

That is my experience too. At first I balked when you said the part about pride. I am not aware of it. But then I saw that I am often self sufficient, like "I got this, God. You can go work on big things like hurricanes etc." I thought it was my Catholic upbringing that made me feel 'distant' from God sometimes (often) ...that I am not mystical enough of a person. And other people are, so they are the ones who seem to 'experience' this 'walking in the spirit'. Even if I DON"T experience it (feel it)I have to trust that the Spirit IS at work b/c sometimes, despite myself, I DO do good things. So maybe these people here are right?

Feel now, like I am having to start over again. But that's ok. I want to get this and grow in the Lord and actually experience what others seem to....but even if I never do on earth, I will still, by faith, believe. Amen.

Thanks for your helpful and well thought out and kind post.

Brandon E you said: "That it’s not our present experience doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist."

Well put! And so, wondering then, DO ALL TRUE BELIEVERS EXPERIENCE THIS AT LEAST ONCE IN THEIR EARTHLY LIFETIME "AS" PROOF THAT THEY HAVE THE SPIRIT??? DO ALL TRUE BELIEVERS BEAR FRUIT? OR NOT?

Proud of myself how short this post is.

Blessings.

Let me through in a wobbly. Does Jason Stellman's leaving Presbyterianism and apparently moving to Romasn Catholicism indicate a cognitive dissonance within the particular form of justification he espoused - one not dissimilar to the form espoused hear.

Stellman understood justification in a way that made little room for 'justification by works'. In time, presumably cognitive dissonance set in as he read Scripture and saw again and again that we are in some sense at least 'justified by works'. Justification that is not vindicated in works is no justification at all.

Is the danger that those who dissociate righteous living from the justified life end up pushing those who begin to see this does not do justice to Scripture, towards Rome in an over-reaction? Is Sellman, in part a lesson here?

(PS. Hi Jack... thanks for personal note. Various work commitments have kept me from blogging recently... and holidays.)

Hi Hopeful, great question. Here’s my (imperfect) response.

I believe that learning to live by Christ by abiding in Him and walking by the Spirit is a lifelong matter that ultimately depends upon God’s mercy, but that our foundation is to first see the revelation, the truth, of the matter in the Bible. Our feelings and experiences can change, but the truth is solid and unshakable.

There are many verses in Scripture that show that the Lord Jesus Christ not only has redeemed us objectively but truly indwells the regenerated believers and that God’s intention is to work Jesus His Son into our being through His Spirit. See 2 Cor. 13:5; 3:18; Gal. 2:20; 1:15-16; 4:19; Col. 1:27; John 14:20; Eph. 3:14-21; Phil. 1:19-21; 3:7-16, and many others. Moreover, God’s intention in this is not to produce a bunch of individual spiritual giants but to build up the corporate Body of Christ for His expression on the earth (Eph. 4:11-16; 2:21-22; Col 2:19; 1 Pet. 2:1-12).

By praying over such verses and speaking to the Lord about such verses, His word can operates in us. This is to “let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom” (Col. 3:16). We tend to have a lot of concepts that cause us to take the word of the Bible for granted and hinder us from actually seeing what the Bible has to say, and we tend to live and make decisions according to our concepts. But as we let His word operate in us His word renews our minds and washes our old concepts (Rom. 12:2; Eph. 4:23, 5:26).

After we see the objective truth, our heart is prepared believe the truth, to lay hold of the truth by faith, and trust in the Lord to fulfill it. The Spirit may then gradually lead us to take “baby steps” (I consider myself to still be taking baby steps) so that the truth is not just doctrinal head-knowledge to us but becomes our experience. I don’t think there is any “method” that will directly cause us to grow and bear fruit on command. On our side, we simply enjoy the Lord through word and prayer, spending time in His presence individually and corporately. Based on what we have seen, we believe and trust that He is operating. As 2 Cor. 3:18 says, with our unveiled face upon Jesus we are being transformed unto His image from one degree of glory unto another even as from the Lord Spirit.

My experience is that when I do thoroughly enjoy the Lord in this way I generally tend to spontaneously desire to do things that might otherwise feel like a burden or chore, such as preaching the gospel, attending meetings of the church, reaching out to others, etc. In general, my heart is softer, warmer and more open toward people than I would normally be, and my heart is softer, warmer and more open to the Lord in situations that I would not normally be (relationships, finances, my hopes of “success,” etc). In general, I feel more sensitive concerning sins and simply confess the ones the Lord makes me aware of (without trying to introspect dig things up) rather than having a dull, foggy, guilty and weighed down conscience. When I am struggling and striving to do things with my own strength, or doing something for my own pride and glory, I tend to have an uneasy sense of something blocking my fellowship with the Lord. It’s not always the case and I do go through spiritual “peaks” and “valleys,” but there’s no need to get introspective or discouraged as if everything depended on feelings. We don’t have to “analyze” ourselves to see how much we think we’ve grown, because our opinions about ourselves are not trustworthy. We just go on in the Lord’s daily grace.

On this subject, I would really recommend the book The Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee, which would serve you better than I could with blog comments like these. There is a very strong chapter in this book entitled “The Meaning and Value of Romans Seven” about the misery and despair of failing harder the harder we try to please God (keep the law) that I think that Mitchell or Steve M. would appreciate. But in the next chapter he points out that the purpose of Romans chapter 7 is to get us into Romans chapter 8. In Romans chapter 8 we see that the “law of the Spirit of life...in Christ Jesus” frees us from the law of sin and of death and fulfills the righteous requirement of the law in us (Rom. 8:2-4)--not by those who try to keep the law, but in those who “walk according to the Spirit.”

Brandon,
You ask some great questions! I'm tempted to argue that we don't really know our good works for our motives are mixed. However, saying this I'm sure our neighbors benefit from our good works regardless of our motives. I read somewhere that the Christian life is lived in Romans 6,7,& 8. I have a subjective experience of my Christian life but I'm not going to make it the standard bearer for others... Mine is very bland. And you are right that we may not know when we walk by the Spirit... I know I do for it is a promise. It is a life of faith.
My point with the martyrs was to accentuate the idea "death is lonely" and our confidence rests in the promises given through Christ going before us and for us... Rather than us looking towards our works to convince ourselves we are in the faith.
I'll address the other parts of your response later. I'm tired man!

Mitchell,

'Amen' to your comments. A refrain often spoken and written amongst the reformers of the 16th century was "through the merit and mediation of Jesus Christ alone." Not just for justification, but for every aspect of our living. Yes, becoming 'fixed' waits for that day when we see Him. Then we shall be like Him. Today we walk by faith, not by sight, and that faith is the faith of a sinner like me that sees all that is necessary for the Christian life has been secured by Christ alone. And the thing(!) secured is my salvation, along with my brothers and sisters, by the forgiveness of sins through faith in the blood of Christ. This, as you've pointed out, is the message aimed at us in the Word and Sacrament that nourishes our faith. These are the words of comfort from our Lord to us sinner/saints.

"He who is forgiven much, loves much."

I like how the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion puts it:

XII. Of Good Works.
Albeit that Good Works, which are the fruits of Faith, and follow after Justification, cannot put away our sins, and endure the severity of God's judgment; yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and do spring out necessarily of a true and lively Faith insomuch that by them a lively Faith may be as evidently known as a tree discerned by the fruit.

blessings...

Hi Mitchell,

To clarify, when I say “subjective experience” I don’t mean 1) a visual sight of Christ like Stephen saw while being martyred, or 2) trying to “feel” sanctification working in every move we make, or 3) something we have to manufacture. This appears to be your concept of “subjective experience,” but it’s not I mean. I mean something “miraculously normal” and based on God’s written word accompanied by our belief and trust in His word. Does Romans chapter 8 not depict subjective experience, a different experience than Romans chapter 7? How about Gal. 2:20; Gal. 5:16-26; 2 Cor. 13:14, Eph. 1:17-18, 3:14-19; Phil. 1:19-21; 1 John 2:27, Col. 3:16, Phil. 3:10, John 7:37-39; 15:10-11? Does believing and trusting these verses in our daily living tend to leave us feeling lonely and depressed? Moreover, you or I may have little or no experience of, say, “Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh” (Gal. 5:16) but it doesn’t mean believing and trusting such a word will lead us to conclude that the apostle Paul, writing Scripture inspired by God, is just making up pietistic stuff. You or I may not know the difference between walking by the Spirit and not walking by the Spirit, but our not knowing the difference doesn’t define reality. I don’t claim to know what the average martyr’s experience is, but we do have historical accounts (for instance, of martyrs in ancient Rome, or during the Boxer’s rebellion in China) of non-believers being attracted to Christ and wanting to know Him upon seeing Christians singing or their faces “glowing” with joy in the face of death. That it’s not our present experience doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

But the point I mean to make concerning the nature of fruit and good works is firstly objective (what does the Bible depict; the truth of the matter) not subjective (how we may or may feel about the matter, or whether we’ve experienced it). You might associate what I’ve said with the “pietism” you’ve been exposed to, but let’s deal with the objective biblical facts first. Do you see how there can be a difference between common moral virtues and fruit that is an expression of Christ living in the believers who share in His life (John 15:4-5)? Do you at least see the intrinsic difference between 1) humanity simply being improved and 2) Christ actually living in and with regenerated believers? You say “I too fully believe the indwelling of Christ in the believers” but it seems like you still want to reduce genuine fruit of the Spirit to a common grace that God gives even unto unbelievers, rather than a matter of Christ actually living and moving in the regenerated believers who compose His Body. I think that this diminishes, underestimates or waters down what Christ is to us and the new covenant blessing of the Spirit. Moreover, we are left wondering why (for example) the Lord Jesus would say that His disciples (and not the world at large) are the “light of the world” who are to “let your light shine before men, so that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in the heavens,” if it is not due to the fact that Jesus is the true light of the world, Jesus indwells the believers, and hence they are able to let Christ as the light shine in their good works. Or why would God be so particular about redeeming and creating a people--the Body of Christ--for fruit or “good works” (cf. Titus 2:14; Eph 2:10; John 15:16) if the same nature of fruit and works is common among non-believers?

Brandon,
Thanks for the comments. You use many biblical phrases that I completely agree with but I think we simply may define them differently. It seems you're searching for an 'experience' that shows you Christ in your day to day living - I'm not. I'm simply living out my many vocations with the knowledge of forgiveness through Christ. I guess as a Lutheran the 'true experience' I have of Christ primarily comes to me in Word and Sacrament (though we experience His grace in day to day living as do unbelievers... they simply do not acknowledge it); Christ revealing Himself in communion (such as with the 2 on the Emmaus road) and in the Gospel proclamation (You are forgiven). Does this reality change the way I live - I hope so.

I imagine those who were/are martyred for their faith experience lonely last moments. I doubt all martyrs get a vision of Christ standing as Stephen did. But maybe they do. Chances are they're death is fairly ordinary and lonely. I also imagine in those last moments a very deep understanding of what "Christ dwelling in you richly" means - and I doubt it has little to do with some subjective experience but rather something we believe and lay hold of by simple trust.

I know that isn't a lot of frills and chills but I suspect it to be true - with any death of believers. Some may escape the fear of dying in this life - but not me and I can say I wouldn't relate too well with them.
My Christian life? Ordinarily forgiven... not fixed.

I too fully believe the indwelling of Christ in the believers. But this is a promise that He does... not that we manufacture it. Saturated with Christ? - yes. Because He promised it to be so rather my experiencing it in every move I make. Again... very ordinary.

You're view of the Christian life has many pietistic tendencies that I have run from in American Evangelicalism. And I don't say that to be confrontational... but it's what drove me out of my Southern Baptist upbringing. Thanks for the conversation Brandon.

@ Brandon.
Very good points...I think, what you should know is that you’ve got the talent to write about biblical issues in a both appealing and plausible manner. It’s always delightful to read your comments! :)

@ Brad
Thanks for your reply. Obviously, this is my mistake; I thought that I’m through with that, but I am still so used to look for footnotes below, that is seeing literature references always at the end of the text, not at the outset; it’s typical I’ve read, “James Nestingen” and I thought this would turn out to be a short quote, and the rest could have been your own thoughts...However, I hope it just keeps getting better with my confusion ;)

Thank you, Brandon E!
Very helpful.
Now then, how do I get to this point?

Author: Brandon E
Comment:
Christ living in us is by the cross (putting to death our independent efforts in the old man), through the Spirit (resurrection life added into us), and expresses or ministers Christ to people (causing them to receive Christ, to desire to know Christ, to overflow Christ to others) issuing in the building up of the Body of Christ--that is, the new man of the new creation. Practically speaking, the former is through self-effort--struggling and striving, trying harder and praying harder when we inevitably fail--while the latter is primarily through the experience and enjoyment of the grace of Christ, who is not only our crucified redeemer objectively but resurrection life in us subjectively.

Hi Mitchell,

I agree that non-believers can have and display various moral qualities, but I don’t think that this is what the apostle Paul means by “fruit of the Spirit.” Similarly, some believers are naturally more loving, humble, meek, etc. than others, but I don’t think that this is what Paul meant by “fruit of the Spirit,” either.

I believe that the difference is that natural, common, human virtues (shared by non-believers and believers alike) are the cultivation and expression of the human nature by itself, but the “fruit of the Spirit” is the expression of Jesus Christ actually living in us (Gal 2:20), being formed in us (Gal. 4:19), making His home in our heart through faith (Eph. 3:17) and us living by Him (John 6:57, 15:4-5).

This is very unique, because Christ indwells only the believers. That Christ personally indwells the regenerated believers (2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 2:20; 4:19; Rom. 8:9-11; Eph. 3:17; Col. 1:27; John 14:20; 1 Cor. 6:17) that they may live by Him is a unique teaching of biblical Christianity, though it is often neglected.

Hence, we find in Scripture that it is His disciples and not the world at large who are called “the light of the world,” for Christ who is the true light of the world (Matt. 4:16; John 1:4, 9:5) indwells only His believers. As the apostle Paul says in Ephesians 5:8-10, the believers who were once darkness are light in the Lord, and hence the believers can walk as children of light to bear the fruits of the light.

What’s being expressed in such fruit is not simply “morality” as such but Christ actually living in us and with us--which, as I mentioned in the last comment, finds fuller expression in the Body functioning together in harmony in comparison to mere individuals. Such fruit is not a matter of us making our human nature “holy” in itself (even with God’s help) but of Christ becoming holiness to us and in us. To use an analogy, it's less like "fixing" or "perfecting" a cotton ball (our human nature) to make it more round, white, and soft and fluffy, than it is like the addition of another element like a blue dye (Christ as holiness) saturating the cotton ball to that the cotton ball contains and expresses the blue dye.

So we could say further that mere morality and ethics is through natural effort and self-cultivation; Christ living in us is through the revelation, knowledge and subjective experience of the crucified and resurrected Christ (Phil. 3:7-16). (If we don't see the revelation that Christ lives in the regenerated believers and that what God wants in our daily living is not our morality but His Son living in us, it will be hard for us to gradually enter into the experience, just as if we don't see the revelation that Christ has done everything for our justification, it will be hard to live in the realization that we don't have to do anything to earn our justification.) Mere morality is the cultivation and expression of independent human virtues that function without the death and resurrection of Jesus applied to the human being--that is, the old man of the old creation. Christ living in us is by the cross (putting to death our independent efforts in the old man), through the Spirit (resurrection life added into us), and expresses or ministers Christ to people (causing them to receive Christ, to desire to know Christ, to overflow Christ to others) issuing in the building up of the Body of Christ--that is, the new man of the new creation. Practically speaking, the former is through self-effort--struggling and striving, trying harder and praying harder when we inevitably fail--while the latter is primarily through the experience and enjoyment of the grace of Christ, who is not only our crucified redeemer objectively but resurrection life in us subjectively.

Great message again Pastor Tullian.
For those who are concerned about how the imperatives of the Scripture are handled, can I suggest you listen to his Colossians sermon series. The imperatives given by Paul in Colossians are firmly grounded in the indicatives proclaimed in Colossians.
Phil

Brandon,
"I believe that part of the problem of boasting in self is that we have with an individualistic, self-serving, or rivalry-and-competition-based concept of growth, such that if we bear fruit or do a good work we think it would be grounds to say, “Look at me, look at how fixed I am.”

Boy is this dead on Brandon! As I have said before I'm not against works or even growth. But many of the verses about works, salt and light I believe are in the form of a promise... "You are salt... light... will do good works. In the same way, I think, we simply believe. The things I do day to day as a father husband friend etc. become good works now because of Christ... not because I have gone out and manufactured something that is so profoundly different or unique. You know any non-believers who have LOVE JOY PEACE PATIENCE KINDNESS GOODNESS FAITHFULNESS GENTLENESS and SELF CONTROL... I do. These are not solely Christian characteristics. But belief in Christ, redemption, the Trinity is unique.

John Dunn...thank you for taking the time to remind us what it is to live by faith in the Son of God who is risen from the dead, with whom we've been made alive and alive abundantly. This faith, focused solely upon the person and work of Christ for us and now begun in us by the Spirit according to the Word, is truly a gracious gift of God, our father. As Paul indicated, not all have the same measure of faith (Rom.12.3).

Thank you for contending for this faith.

Pastor
I like this sight especially when it becomes a tug-a-war. Then I can pick a side and start pulling.

@ Susanne: My comment was literally all the words of James Nestingen. He is a Lutheran theologian and scholar whose work you can read about and should definitely check out. I highly recommend him.

@ Steve: Yes!!! Loved the blog. I found my way onto yours, and enjoyed it too. Noses are funny things, never seem to wanna stay in joint ; )

Brandon E! Thank you! I loved that. I have OFTEN thought that we Amreicans (!) take too many verses individualistically rather than corporately. One thing, I think we can often also accidentally think that 'fruit' consists of 'saved souls' when in reality God calls our fruit LOVE JOY PEACE PATIENCE KINDNESS GOODNESS FAITHFULNESS GENTLENESS and SELF CONTROL. Get this, 'against such things there is no law." I always wondered why Paul said that. Now I get it! So far I like Paul's (God's) book the best and will stick to it for the time being! Thanks again!
Finally AT PEACE

Mitchell, I think that the two examples you listed depict the Jewish expectation of a perfect political kingdom on earth, but it doesn't tell us that much about how the present living and conduct of the believers who have been made a new creation in Christ.

The Lord Jesus also said things like "You are the light of the world. It is impossible for a city situated upon a mountain to be hidden....let your light shine before men, so that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in the heavens" (Matt 5:14-16) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes into Me, the works which I do he shall do also; and greater than these he shall do because I am going to the Father" (John 14:12). Ephesians 5:8-10 says: "For you were once darkness but are now light in the Lord; walk as children of light / (For the fruit of the light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), / Proving what is well pleasing to the Lord."

I believe that part of the problem of boasting in self is that we have with an individualistic, self-serving, or rivalry-and-competition-based concept of growth, such that if we bear fruit or do a good work we think it would be grounds to say, "Look at me, look at how fixed I am."

But I believe that the Bible presents growth and good works as being for, in, through, and an expression of the Body of Christ corporately (see Eph. 4:11-16; Col. 2:19; Eph. 2:20-22; 1 Pet. 2:1-12). Titus 2:14 says that Christ died to redeem a particular people zealous for good works, not a bunch of separate individuals. Ephesians 2:10 says that we (the church collectively) are "His masterpiece created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand in order that we would walk in them." There's not a bunch of little, individual masterpieces created in Christ Jesus, but one, of whom all the believers are a member or a part.

So it's not that any one person becomes a hero, all-star, or pinnacle of righteousness and put-togetherness, but that through the many members mutually helping and coordinating with one another the Body of Christ grows, bears fruit and carries out good works that glorify the Father (Matt. 5:16; John 15:8). Any visible fruit or good work that might be carried out through me (let's say that a number of persons was saved, baptised and came into the church as a result my gospel preaching) practically depends upon the help I received from others with Christ as the source. It's not my work for me to take credit for, but a work of the Body of whom Christ is the Head.

An amazing parallel can be drawn between what the 2 on the road to Emmaus thought about who Christ actually was and what His intent would be; this can also be said of the 12 up until Acts 1. The predominant view held was that the Messiah would tip the playing field in favor of the Jews again. In essence it was very much a "Social Gospel." We make the exact same mistake when we presume to walk around this world as though we are "fixed."
To be sure we are "New Creations" in Him but this is a reality of faith that pokes through into our fallen reality at points throughout our physical life. One day we will know that reality in full.

Great post and great comments. The "cheap law"/"cheap grace" debate rages on for two thousand years and still it mystifies. For my brothers and sisters who place their salvation in their works alone, it is good to be constantly reminded of grace, the true means of salvation. So noted...as it should be...but I have not met many folks like that in many churches - but still it is critical to be reminded of the goodness of God as a means of sharing the goodness of the only one who was truly good...quite good theology quite good theory...but I am much more likely to meet someone in church who is very likely to say something along the lines of..."I'm not good enough and I can't keep the law and I need Jesus..." (all good observations and all true)...followed by this kind of statement either directly or more subtly "....and by the way you are not good enough either...you can't ever keep the demands of Christ...you are not like Christ at all...those silly things you do...(here fill in the blank a) feeding the homeless, b) visiting the sick, c) going into prison, etc....) don't fool yourself...those things ain't good enough either and don't you ever, ever, ever forget simul et peccatur..etc...etc..you are on about the level of a turnip and can do NOTHING>>>>

I would suggest that one is much more likely to find this kind of hyperbolic distortion and judgment in our church today than the other extreme of the save the world social gospel and good works of wayward philanthropy, and my point is that if pushed to the extreme it is a great danger and killjoy...and it turns back into what you would call "cheap law" and what others might call "cheap grace", but is really, at its core, a denial of the work of the spirit. I would further suggest the seed of such comments are more often borne of cruel envy and a lack of faith and those kind of of statements are much more of an indictment of the church (and church people) than a mere theological misunderstanding of the use of law. As a person sympathetic to the Roman church but wholly protestant, an emphasis on love and forgiveness are good things...and we surely can love and forgive and we surely are not nothing...even if we are only dust...and there things which we can indeed actually do!

I believe our Lord never jumped on anyone (like Calvin and Luther may have) for doing something charitable though perhaps for the wrong motivation...those people, he said, received their reward on earth...as indeed they did. Our Lord was quite critical of those who were smug enough to believe they were "good enough" to keep the law and earn their way into relationship with God, but he was even more critical of the religious teachers who taught others they could never have merit or be accounted righteous enough in God's eyes to be loved by God, and bear good fruits. Overemphasis on grace to the exclusion of the possibility and the futility of good works (this is what I would call "cheap grace" and you are right it is free grace...but it also always asks..."will you love me back?") almost always results in excessive piety, excessive focus on "me", excessive judgment and emphasis of the inadequacy of others and, if folks are honest, is almost always a matter of envy. It is actually a denial of the "work" of the Holy Spirit. How often has the church taken a new enthusiastic believer who wants to follow Christ in love and thrown that wet blanket of cheap grace over a new believer (by a reminder of "good theology"...i.e. ..."just in case you thought you were in tight with Christ, well, i've been here a bit longer than you have and let me remind you that that silly thing you did, well, its not good enough... and if you think you are called to that you really are under a delusion...you should really just focus on grace and wallow in your inadequacy and join me in calling others inadequate"), instead of embracing the joy of those new good works of Christ and giving thanks and praise to the Father? We can certainly question and deny the good works of man, but we should be most reluctant to deny the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit through this new creation of Christ and in Christ.

@Steve Martin

The sum of your comments in concert with the subject matter of your linked devotional would seem to suggest that you would equate those of us who contend for an active and indwelling ministry of the Spirit of Christ to be on par with being yoked to slavery, engaging in "fruit checking", and engaging in the activity of a liberal social gospel.

My dear friend, this is so far from the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The New Covenant ministry of the Spirit is Life and Righteousness and Peace and Joy and Liberty (2 Cor 3:6-17, Rom 14:17). The indwelling Spirit of Christ is the very life and righteousness of the resurrected Christ living in us and through us, empowering the Body to produce righteousness, fruitfulness, and good works, which were prepared before hand that we should walk in them. As such, the Spirit's indwelling life and righteousness is not our own. His indwelling righteousness is foreign to us (Rom 8:4-5). Yet He is freely given to us as our very own indwelling Righteousness and Life, purchased and won by the blood-bought redemption of Christ's finished cross work. The Spirit's indwelling grafts us into the most intimate union and communion with Christ, our living Head.

Therefore, walking in the Spirit of Christ necessarily produces the Vine-ripened fruit of righteousness and peace in the saints. These works/fruit are not meritorious or Romish as you would suggest. Nor are they a cause for boasting or glorying in ourselves. For our growth in grace and righteousness is all of Christ, purchased by Christ, merited by Christ, accomplished by Christ, empowered by Christ, and redounds only to the glory of Christ.

So, your straw-man carricature of Spirit-led New Covenant living is just that . . . a carricature that has no substance in the Scriptures. Be filled with the Spirit my friend!

Where are all these comments from
Which all fit and are spot-on?

Oh my God, I can't believe...
Or should I say here perceive?

Not much to do, not much to say...
Way more listen while I pray

The truth is not so hard to find
Lord, let me cease to be so blind

It’s quite simple, not so smart
For it’s a matter of the heart

Seeking Love, you’ll find it soon...
As easy as you’ll see the moon

It’s only flesh that hates to seek...
Spirit wills but flesh is weak

Lord, please, would ya be so kind
To open up the very mind

So we can see it with Your Eyes...
And let the morning star arise

What on earth can keep us from...
Beholding Him, the only Son?

All power’s given unto Him
And He’s the light outshining dim.

BE MERCIFUL TO ME A SINNER.

Is this man already saved?
Was anyone already 'saved' as we (post cross) understand it?
As saved people, do we still approach God that way?
Or are we to come as children, boldly, now, climbing in His lap?
Hebrews 14:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven,[f] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are —yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

Also thinking of how Jesus taught us to pray. I think the story of the two men praying was evangelistic, again, comparing 'works' to 'grace/mercy'.
I can see with this group we need to be SO CAREFUL to define terms and make sure when we are talking about justifcation vs sanctification.

So far I am seeing it is both! I keep hoping that this is just an issue of semantics. The 'grace emphasis ' people are saying DONT FOCUS SO MUCH ON THE LAW! The 'obedience emphasis' ppl are saying DON"T FOCUS TOO MUCH ON GRACE FOR IT WILL MAKE PPL THINK THEIR ONGOING SIN IS OK!

The truth seems to be that we are saved by faith alone , no works. True faith will result in good works in the life of a true believer. We mustn't forget that there will be some who hear the word and appear to believe but do not continue in the faith , showing outward fruit. They were never really 'saved'. The true believers are to abide/submit/die to self/surrender/rest in Christ and THEN they will be empowered (by His strength) to do the good works that God has planned for them to do. Always leaning on /depending on His power, not their own.

Can we all agree on that?
I think the 'obedience' ppl don't hear enough from the 'grace' ppl that YES, we do still need to do the one another commands. And the grace ppl aren't hearing enough from the obedience ppl that grace is even involved at all in sanctification. (I do wonder that the grace ppl like that word specifically so much, over other words/thoughts/ideas. The word grace means gift. Right? So isn't the gift the salvation and the means of growth through the empowering of the Holy Spirit? I guess that is alot more to say each time. Anyway..)

I hope this is all just semantics.
Let love abound.

Amy, Yes! and the gospel includes both the cross and the resurrection. And just what are the implications of the resurrection? Half of the gospel is just that, half. Just contending for a whole gospel.

btw- saying 'be merciful to me a sinner' can be self centered, false humility, hypocritical too.
I pray that people can recognize that we have been with Jesus.

Jeremiah writes:
"there are God’s children out there who desire to be conformed into His image by and through the Holy Spirit."

Surely these children are those who can pray with the publican, "be merciful to me a sinner." If they are instead looking at all the good things they are doing and focusing on their "conformity" to Christ, they bear more resemblance to the Pharisee in Luke 18. Read the prayer of that Pharisee, he is thankful for his goodness, and the things he mentions are good things--things that have been COMMANDED.

God's children who desire to be conformed to His image by and through the Holy Spirit are not rebuked by this article, but freed and exhorted and reminded and how this happens--it ONLY happens by and through the Gospel!

Talk about "cheap law"...read this:

http://1minutedailyword.com/2012/06/03/galatians-116/

by my pastor. Student of, and friend of Jim Nestingen.

It's pretty good. No doubt (though) that some will get their noses out of joint.

..."but he whom God raised up did not see corruption. Let it be knkown to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed in the law of Moses." Acts 13:37-39

"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. . .For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" Gal 5:1,13,14

Imagine what could happen if we just focused on our "freedom" in Christ and loved people -- telling them of their freedom and forgiveness too!

And that life, by grace through faith, does things that God is pleased with. ie. righteous acts, good works that have been prepared,loving others ect.

Jeremiah, I have no problem with the above. I might exchange the word "life" for the word "I", i.e. I through faith in Christ alone by grace alone do things that are pleasing to God. I do the works. Christ's finished work by the grace of God and through the work of the Holy Spirit sanctifies those works.

And I don't think I am saying anything that would consider Christ our Rock upon which we stand as dangerous or threatening. On the contrary, as the old hymn states:

My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus' blood and righteousness...

On Christ the solid rock I stand, pray, walk, battle sin, and love my neighbor.

Blessings...

Steve, the only yoke that I am interested in is the yoke of Christ. I will gladly take that yoke upon me. The Holy Spirit leads us to take that yoke up. How can you so easily dismiss the scriptural observations and input that come your way?

Jack regarding the second point, I am sorry that was misplaced I meant to include that generally or maybe to Steve.
And onto the first thing. Yes it is from Christ that our works originate from. I think my point was that the believer is so united with Christ that this new life is not dormant but actually lives. And that life, by grace through faith, does things that God is pleased with. ie. righteous acts, good works that have been prepared,loving others ect.

Jesus would have His children build their houses upon the rock and actually do what Jesus says. How is this so dangerous or threatening?
thanks

@ Brad

I was fascinated by reading your comment. Presumably you are a preacher, a pastor, and an artist as well because you said, ‘Law/gospel preaching is an art not a science; and in learning to preach this way, you get crucified in the shape of everyday life.’ (This seems to be so convincing to me) Well...don’t hesitate to share any personal experiences or observations you’ve made on your own; would be very interesting and certainly edifying to hear about them. Also, ‘your way’ of writing over the ongoing Law/Gospel debate reveals that you are, let’s say, truly artistically minded. ;)

OK, then.

Let's all 'get busy'.

Step right up and we'll place that yoke back upon your neck. And then we can all engage in the 'fruit checking game'.

One might as well return to Rome. It's the same stuff, slightly repackaged.

In the words of James Nestingen,

The promises are to be handed over as promises (i.e. no qualifications whatsoever), and the law is to be handed over one hundred and twenty proof (i.e. all qualifications).

On the side of the gospel, there are passages that are purely promissory. The old Adam, taking hold of these passages, attempts to impose a condition in order to turn the gospel into the law. So, for instance, the great promise of John 3:16 gets turned into a transaction. (i.e. Once you believe this, then you have the promise) Adam reads: 'For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him, they get the promise; but the rest of you, tough luck'. But the passage is purely promissory, that is, Jesus is making a promise. In the same way that Jesus later promises, 'No one will snatch you out of my hand'. The promise is being made. Paul echoes the same in Romans: "Nothing will separate you from the love of God in Christ Jesus'. These are unconditional declarations. That is, there is no condition at all. The promise is being made solely and exclusively on the basis of Christ's goodness.

The law gospel distinction is required by the biblical text itself. The promises are to be spoken as promises, to be handed over on the basis of Christ's own sufficiency. The law is to be handed over 120 proof. The law is all qualification; and the gospel is no qualification whatsoever. When you distinguish, then you can make the promise on Christ's behalf, which is our calling. On the other hand, when you speak the law, you do not start cutting it to terms and saying, 'well, at least try'.

The purpose of theology is thinking about the word for the sake of preaching and proclaiming the word. It is possible for us to be so utterly self-absorbed that in the presence of the promise, we start examining ourselves. Not only possible, but probable, for that is the unbelief of the human heart. In witness to the promise, you do not want to give any ground to that stuff. To it you say, 'Why would you want to do that!?!?'.

The gospel does not come with qualifications and possibilities. When someone makes a suggestion, usually they are protecting their turf. Law/gospel preaching is an art not a science; and in learning to preach this way, you get crucified in the shape of everyday life. No one ever becomes a pastor until they hang their head above the casket of someone they dearly love. Then the resurrection, the promise of forgiveness and resurrection, becomes not a theoretical matter, but a matter of life and death. Over the casket, you are getting shoved into the gospel as not an alternative, but very life itself. Then, going into the pulpit is not a matter of surviving another sermon, but is delivering a message, handing over the goods, bestowing the gift. Pastors like that are scarce: they are hard to find.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=MLD4iDQRJ2M

Those were James' words, and to them i will only add that you can hang your head over the casket of your very own death by the law (that of which this blog post is an invitation), and see the same thing, or find the same effect.

Exceedingly inspired by the last comments above
Which show there is nothing more important than love
Right here and right now I’d like something to say
That it’s important to see we are all on the way

There’s nobody who’ll climb this high ladder alone
Without Him, our Lord, with the stumbling stone
Though He did the whole lot to justify our stand before Him
It would be awful to not see there is more than: ‘No sin!’

Receiving His Spirit this is crucial to know
Makes it able to “see” His risen Body’s glow
Let’s be united together by His Spirit from above
Abounding in peace, in joy...and extra in love.

yes yes to all this:
" for the justified, faith receives all that is necessary for growth and godliness from the Person and work of Christ. This exalts Christ – the source of our faith and obedience – we can only boast in Christ Alone. It is God who is at work in us to will and to do. Apart from Christ and His indwelling Spirit all of our works are in vain. It is Christ in us who is our only hope of glory."

like in our salvation, we experience a 'choosing' of sorts but it is God who prompts it all (no one comes to the father unless he is dragged...) The same in our sanctification. Our experience is of our obedience (commanded by the Father) and yet it is all HIM. A mystery to the outsider for sure. How many times have I not felt like praying, loving, obeying , etc and just 'began' and lo and behold, the feelings come along behind. But there is a doing....
can't seem to get away from that and I am not sure why these folks here just hate that word....'do'!?

Still hopeful.....

I think 'obedience' rightly understood, for the justified, is an obedience of faith. And faith rightly understood is a 'receiving instrument'. Faith receives from its' object - for the justified, faith receives all that is necessary for growth and godliness from the Person and work of Christ. This exalts Christ - the source of our faith and obedience - we can only boast in Christ Alone. It is God who is at work in us to will and to do. Apart from Christ and His indwelling Spirit all of our works are in vain. It is Christ in us who is our only hope of glory.

Jeremiah,

Two things, my friend... Nothing I wrote denies that these prepared works are ours to walk in, I.e. do them. My point is simply in the form of this question: from whom do these righteous works find their "righteousness?" Us? No, 'tis Christ alone. Secondly, how and where did I rebuke anyone?

Blessings...

Here we go again.

Step one, step two, step...
This is a rap

Cheap law, cheap grace,
Slappin’ in the face
Followin’ the trace

This is a rap

Tryna stay in track
There’s no goin’ back
Don’t have a whack

This is a rap

His blood wasn’t cheap
His suffering so deep
The law He had to keep
He sowed that He can reap

This is no gag

Since grace should be the tag
On ev’ry Christian’s bag
No need for one to lag

Cause He has might

Not only at first sight
I know that I’m right
For Jesus is the Light

Shinin' in the night
Clearin’ up the sight
Makin' life so bright

For His beloved Bride

In Spirit do abide
No failure is to hide
So love will grow inside

Since He is the Guide

Who ascended to the height
Is sittin’ at the right
Of the Father of all Light

Returned in Spirit’s might
Poured Heaven’s pure delight
In hearts that will excite

And Gospel re-ignite

On this divine journey, you mustn’t rap or rhyme
Always keep it flying high in the sky of LOVE
Until LIFE eternal takes you home
Just enjoy and...

Have a nice flight.

Susanne :)

However, it’s not always a honeymoon with God. Some times also provide sudden suffering. I don’t know whether this is necessary, such a pain, but sometimes I’d like to say, “Lord, so often I see You everywhere, but (today) you left me in the rain.”

Thx

My Goodness! So good to be inspired again...


Oh Lord, I feel inside of me
Your love, Your touch

...it’s ECSTASY

My soul’s combining symphony
This LIFE, this LOVE’s no fantasy

Behold, beloved, in Christ we’ll be
Forevermore - completely free

...free indeed.


Until the next time ;)

[...] Cheap Law In his latest post for Gospel Coalition, Tullian Tchividjian shares this word: “Jesus shows [...]

Oh, this is... SOOOOOO.... GOOD!

John T: Re Calvin, I am not saying that Calvin did not admit the whole course of Christ’s obedience but simply that he lived with contradiction. In his commentaries Calvin speaks of justification explicitly in terms of forgiveness of sins.

JT, forgiveness of sins, free pardon, free mercy, the blood of Christ... these all are used by Calvin and many of the reformers as "inclusive" phrases of Christ's salvation. There is no forgiveness of sins apart from the perfect obedient law-keeping of Christ. They are inseparable. But even if you want to enlist Calvin, how can you call him as a witness for your case when he explicitly says, "To declare that we are deemed righteous, solely because the obedience of Christ is imputed to us as if it where our own, is just to place our righteousness in the obedience of Christ”... as well as those quoted above? Did he misspeak? No, Calvin is not being inconsistent.

cheers...

Hi brother Jack,
The sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross in order to accomplish redemption was indeed dependent on His perfect obedience to the law, otherwise His offering of Himself would be insufficient. If then His perfect obedience as a man, as the second Adam, was essential to the securing our salvation, how is it irrelevant to our faith in Him? Again, His sacrifice for sin and His perfect obedience are inseparable.

I fully agree that the Lord’s perfect obedience is not irrelevant; it’s what qualified Him before God to be our Savior. I’m suggesting that while His perfect obedience was absolutely necessary for securing salvation, this life-long perfect obedience that qualified Him before God to be our Savior is not what is imputed to us to make us justified in Him. For Him to be our Savior and us to be justified, He needed to be sinless (otherwise, theoretically speaking, He could die only for His own debt of sins and not for our debt of sins) and obedient to the death of a cross (otherwise the work of redemption at the crucifixion would not happen). He took up the penalties of our sins upon Himself on the cross, where the righteous verdict of God’s law was carried out upon Him and upon us vicariously with Him as our Substitute (not averted by righteousness), so that our debt of sins would be wiped clean. Once we are in Christ through faith, our sins are not accounted against us (Rom. 4:3-8) which makes us accredited as righteous apart from the law and apart from works, and we are declared righteous by God in Him. The Lord needed to live a perfect human life so that He would be qualified before God to be our Savior, but not because a life-long positive accruement of law-keeping and righteousness earned through obedience and works needed to be forensically imputed to us. Christ's personal virtues and righteous acts of obedience that made Him alone qualified before God to be our Savior belong solely to Him, and is different from the imputed (or incorporated) righteousness that comes from our being mystically united with Christ (1 Cor. 1:30).

I believe that the point of Romans 2 is to show that no one has kept the law and therefore all have sinned and are under God’s condemnation. But this does not show that from the very beginning Adam or someone else had to perfectly keep the law in order to be rewarded with life (a do-this-and-live covenant of works). As mentioned earlier, Adam had free access to all the trees in the garden (all except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) including the tree of life and the ability to fellowship with God, without him having to earn the right first. He wasn’t under the law in that sense. In Galatians 3, Paul says that the promised blessing of the Spirit of life that makes us sons of God was promised to Abraham 430 years before the law was added (v. 17), that the inheritance is not of law for if it were it would no longer be a gracious promise (v. 18), and that the law was added later because of transgressions (v. 19) to shut up all under sin that they may come to the faith in Jesus Christ (v. 21-29). Parallels are found in Romans 4. The law as a covenant works assumes the presence of sin and was given to demand, condemn and shut up all under sin. Once the problem of sin (our legal problem between us and God) is taken care of in Christ we are justified in Him and our relationship with the law is terminated (Rom. 10:4; 7:1-6; Gal. 2:19). Judicial redemption accomplished by Christ brings us back to God’s original goal and intention, which is not legal or judicial but organic (a matter of life): to impart Himself in the Son as life (signified by the tree of life) to regenerate us with His life and make us into His many sons and transform us inwardly by His life unto His image for His expression. Justification is the necessary means, but not the supreme goal or end, of God’s full plan of salvation, which is to transform many redeemed, regenerated, transformed and glorified sons of God into the image of the firstborn Son of God (Rom. 8:29) and build them together into a kingdom, Body, dwelling place, new creation, and bride that is organically one with Him actually expresses His divine life and nature (Rom. 5:10; John 15:4-5; Eph. 4:11-16; Col. 2:19; 2 Pet. 1:3-11), the final stage of which is the New Jerusalem in the new heavens and new earth.

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@Mitchell,
I agree that righteousness is imputed to us for our righteousness before God. What I’m saying is that I don’t believe that this righteousness is or requires the imputation of Christ’s lifelong perfect obedience and law-keeping to us. Although he expresses a common view in Reformed theology, I don’t believe Jack’s claim that “There is no justification nor promise of salvation for any man unless he keep the entire law,” not because I think I can be justified through works but because (to state only one reason) God’s gracious gifts (to Adam, to Abraham) precede the law as a covenant of works. The law which says “do this and live!” was added later to expose our exceeding sinfulness (Gal. 3:19; Rom. 3:20; 7:7), not as an expression of an eternal principle that says that justification/righteousness/salvation/life fundamentally has to be earned or worked for through law-keeping, if not by Adam then by Christ and then imputed to us.

I’m only somewhat familiar with NPP theology and I’m not an advocate of it. I agree with Preston Sprinkle’s (Eternity Bible college) critiques of it here: http://facultyblog.eternitybiblecollege.com/2012/01/31/the-end-of-the-new-perspective/ My understanding is that NPP advocates like NT Wright don’t have a problem with imputation of righteousness, but only with an imputation of Christ’s law-keeping, which has sparked heated debate between NT Wright and John Piper. This is outwardly similar to what I’m saying, but I think that the NPP view disagrees with the imputation of Christ’s law-keeping for different reasons than I would.

Good to chat gentlemen. Tomorrow I am off on holiday so I will not be around for a time. Thankyou for all your input and fellowship.

Brandon: The Scripture points the condemned conscience to Christ’s work on the cross (His sin-bearing death, propitiatory offering, the shedding of His blood, remission of sins), not to an image of the Lord Jesus’ perfect, active law-keeping during His earthly life being imputed to us.

me: I would agree. The believer looks to the cross of Christ, the blood of Christ, etc. for that which cleanses and relieves his conscience from dead works. No one is stating the believer is to to to "an image" of the the Lord's perfect obedience.

B: The Lord Jesus’ perfect, righteous life is what qualified Him to be our Savior and made redemption possible through His obedience unto the death of a cross, but it’s not what is accredited to our account.

me: The sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross in order to accomplish redemption was indeed dependent on His perfect obedience to the law, otherwise His offering of Himself would be insufficient. If then His perfect obedience as a man, as the second Adam, was essential to the securing our salvation, how is it irrelevant to our faith in Him? Again, His sacrifice for sin and His perfect obedience are inseparable.

B: Jack says: “We have been forgiven of our sins by Christ’s perfect sacrifice. Yet it is still required that we have a perfect obedience to the Law. God is a rewarder of only perfect righteousness and obedience.” But this makes it sound like justification and life is firstly by works (if not through Adam then through Jesus), something that has to be earned through effort from the beginning rather than something that God is or has done that He intended for us to simply receive, inherit and enjoy.

me: Yes and no. Paul writes in Romans 2 "for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified... by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight." Building his case against sinful man he concludes "There is none righteous, no, not one..." How are we to escape this just condemnation? As we all know - faith in Christ which is imputed as righteousness to us. So I appropriate the righteousness I lacked through faith in Christ, which faith is accounted as righteousness without my works. But it is a righteousness secured by Jesus through His works as a man born under the law (Gal. 4:4). So - Jesus' works (which includes His sin-bearing), my faith in Him. My faith doesn't look to His works or obedience, it looks to Him (having been born into a living relationship with Him) and receives all the benefits of redemption, foremost among which is forgiveness of sins and His righteousness imputed (credited) to me.

Do we rely on the Spirit to live holy lives for Christ? Yes. Are we being conformed to the holy image of Christ by the work of the Spirit? Yes. That which Christ secured through His death and resurrection and received by us through faith is being worked out in us by His Spirit.

best regards and apologies for the length of this...
Jack