For a great read on the matter, check out Jason Cornwell's book Gospel Quality. Read the review here: http://www.liketreeswalking.blogspot.com and download a free .pdf copy.

Elisabeth, these are quotes from the site you posted.

"The rape allegations arose after the victim went to Norwalk, Conn. police a few months later saying that her father had hit her after finding their apartment messy"

"Regarding his jail sentence, a former Bayside church member called Joubert "Satan's server" and is amazed that he's still the church's pastor"

"The source said the Jouberts have served the community since 1965, but have made no major improvements to the building. "They just lined their pockets," the person said".

"Some members, who asked not to be named, described the minister as a control freak, selfish, a user and a hypocrite".

"Tshaka, 80, noted that every time he saw Joubert, the pastor would ask him, "Have you decided where you'll have your funeral?"

Elisabeth, above are all quotes from the site you posted, FACSA
Justice. Truth. Accountability. By accounts from people that has known this pastor and congregation for decades there does not seem to be a shred of grace in the intire group. My bet is that this pastor and dwindling church is filled with legalistic, selfrightousness people and are so full of themselves that they can abuse others with impunity,
Elisabith, you got to do better than this. Your aversion to Grace based on this groups actions at best is dishonest and does not benifit the Body Of Christ.

Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment (G.R.A.C.E.)

Pastor gets 5 years for sexually abusing 13 year old daughter. Church looks forward to his return. Time to wake up! http://bit.ly/vppipt

This is what I am trying to say...this blog is so much about being against or fear of antinomianism which is an historical issue rather than the very real, present day issue abuse of "grace" - the cultural definition of grace. The above church feels that they are offering "grace" to the pastor...there are hundreds of other examples where abusers are being offered "grace" and "forgiveness" and "love" by not being confronted, by keeping their ministries, by ignoring their victims' cries for help, and by not being held accountable. "Shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid". The mixture of grace/truth that is the Biblical definition is being lived out by G.R.A.C.E. (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment) where they are walking right into the journeys of trauma and horror and not whitewashing the church nor ministries, holding the abuser accountable while not abandoning him/her, and giving a voice to the victims.

Dear Sharon,

I was deeply stirred by your question(s). It appeared to me that there was so much pain between the lines. I'd loved to write something helpful but my mind was emptied. As soon as I have read John's thoughtful and caring reflections I wondered:
"Who could have been verbalizing the answers better than he did?"
And I felt relieved that God also answered my prayers by this means.

But there are still some of your sentences I cannot get out of my head. You wrote about feeling "the burden for the lost" whom you - how every Christian else - want to help by witnessing, by obeying God in the way we think we ought to do. This desire is a godly one, of course. But Satan is always ready for battle when God touches our human heart. Satan's main sphere of activity however is our mind. He works with rational deliberations and logic accusations (most often including a lot of plausible Bible verses) and thus he succeeds in addling, harassing and worrying our souls. The end is always a restless mind, no peace, no freedom and even self-hatred considering our alleged failures in obeying Him.
I know these reflections very well and they can really drive me crazy. Not knowing your own story I only can tell you about one of my strange experiences concerning this case.

This year someone whom I deeply loved since my early childhood died of cancer and several bad ills. I knew that he refused Christian faith because I talked with him about it yet (fifteen years before). He couldn't believe in a loving God allowing pain and suffering. And I have to admit he really suffered such as Job in some way or other.
Since I coudn't come by with verbal witnessing I began to pray almost daily when I realized death was advancing towards him. I was not the only one who prayed - Thank God! When I came to know that his battle would soon be over I wanted to visit him for the last time. But particular external circumstances hindered me from visiting him. So, what was to do?
I decided to write a very last "missionary" letter in which I wanted to point to Jesus, our only way to God. What happened was quite different from the plan I initially intended. I prayed before and while writing because I wanted do my very best. Nothing from me, all from God, this was my prayer.
The result has been a letter in which I mentioned Jesus not at all. I only described my ups and downs in spiritual life with God, particularly my doubts, my inner darkness, the times God seemed so far away, so unreal to me that I turned my back on Him. But He'd never let me alone not even if I left Him.
This letter writing was accompanied by copious tears. My heart was burning for him and I suddenly came to know that God would save him. A few days afterwards he died peacefully and with a little smile on his face. He never spoke to anyone about God, Jesus, faith or whatever but there is only ONE who can give us peace esp. when we are dying.

My mind doesn't comprehend what God has done but my heart knows what my mind cannot accept because it is limited by human metes and bounds. Only God is unlimited in all His thinking and doing. Today I am convinced that our hearts belonging to God are able to take a look "behind the curtain" into the Realm Above but our logical reflections cannot.

If God gives us a burden for the lost ones, He also knows the way He will lead them into His presence. Be that as it may: with our prayer, our words or our activities. Be it through us or without us: HE will do it.

I wish you the very best, Sharon!
God bless you so much

John Thompson,
Only the Holy Spirit knows what I have gone through. Thank you so much for your truth reply. It really, really means alot.
thank you so much,
Sharon

The distinction between justification and sanctification is a sensitive topic, I know, therefore only some of my own thoughts left in the basket after careful deliberation on the comments above.

(1) Justification is fundamental because I could not have any relationship with God, if Jesus didn't pay for it. It's a matter of "initiation" in(to) godly life.

But justification was required in the very beginning of my relationship with God and I needed it every day afterwards till this day and I shall need it in the future as well. Martin Luther exactly realized that it's not possible for man to know all about his sinful nature. There is a constant unconsciousness concerning the deeper root of my sins until the Holy Spirit expands my consciousness by His Light that scrutinizes my inner darkness (John 1,5).
I really don't like this process and often refuse to see what I ought to see. There is still an inner rebellion and objection against God's work to free me by humbling the Self, the old Adam (or better "Eve" in my case). It appears to be internally inconsistent that spiritual growth means to accept my wretchedness beyond all hope. Again and again crying out
"God, be merciful to me, a sinner!"
I have to confess my undetected sins as soon as I detect them.
Day by day.

But what is the reason for spiritual growth itself?
What enables me to look deeper and deeper into my sinful and depraved nature?

(2) I guess sanctification could be the answer.
Nor am I able to justify neither to sanctify myself. Both justification and sanctification are gifts from God and both interact. But there is a remarkably great difference between them.

While justification ensures my access to God outside of me through my prayers, sanctification means that God ensures His access to my inside making His home within my heart (John 14,23). Now the Holy Spirit begins to pray inside of me for I do not know what to pray for as I ought (Romans 8,26).
Thus I can see more and more clearly that I am helpless and lost without God across-the-board. I realize that I need Him more than everything and everybody around me.

I am deeply wretched but He loves me. Unconditionally. The more I see my wretchedness the more I need His grace. Continuing in this way I'll receive "grace upon grace" daily and my love for God, my neighbors and even myself will grow because God's love has been poured into my heart through His Holy Spirit (Romans 5,5).

But sanctification also means inner transformation, the cleansing of my heart, the painful circumcision of the very same (Romans 2,29) to bring forth the new creation in Christ (2 Corinthians 5,17; Galatians 6,15) from the inside to the outside.
Frankly speaking, this is a very painful process, but again a kind of oxymoron, I feel happier day by day. Sometimes I cannot help laughing about my wretched nature. I don't know whether this is normal or lunatic but I like it.
It's a wonderful life.


Merry Christmas for everyone,

Susanne

Love this: "There seems to be a fear out there that the preaching of grace produces serial killers."

So appreciate your voice in this matter, Tullian, and your grace-centered approach to ministry, life, and Scripture.

Paul,

Yes, there is a connection. Jesus. Justification and sanctification flow from Him. The two get almost equal press in the New Testament - just doing a word study puts justification slightly ahead based on Romans, and slightly behind everywhere else. So it is a safe bet that the apostles were concerned that believers understood both.

Also, both require faith. Sanctification is different from legalism in that a legalist is constantly worried about his justification, not trusting in the finished work of Jesus. A believer who runs the race, fights the fight, counts the cost, is different. He is comfortable with his justification, has faith that it is real and it is lasting. Sanctification is what we do with that reality. One way to describe sanctification could be inward looking that results in outward living. (Inward looking becomes less self centered when we can say with Paul "it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me.")

[...] away. STOP DOING THAT. There is so much banter about justification vs. sanctification, for example here. Your worry over your “sanctification” however it might seem to be progressing is a [...]

These things were posted on a blog by a Pastor Joel Taylor.

Said in a post on the above blog titled Tullian Tchividjian’s Error: In carefully reading “Jesus + Nothing = Everything” it becomes clear that a failure to adequately distinguish our sanctification from justification can result in a kind of theoretical view of how we relate to God and how we think God relates to us.

Taylor said from a post above: it confuses justification with sanctification

Just one question Taylor, is there is a connection?

Deof,

The Holy Scriptures tell us that "all our righteous deeds are as filthy rags."

I believe it. When we are aware of a work that we do, then we take it into the realm of sin.

That's why when Jesus said to them, "when I was hungry you fed me,..." etc. etc...they said, "when did we do that?"

Un self-consciousness is what the goal (bad wording maybe) is and you don't arrive there by having 'shoulds', 'oughts', or 'musts' hung over your head by well-meaning preachers that are actually feeding you poison, instead of the grace of God.

This one is hot off the press and is well worth the price of admition (+) :

http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/2011/12/21/the-root-of-our-objections-to-the-complete-and-total-grace-of-god/

Enjoy! (if that is the proper word)

Susanne,

Perfect example!

Thank you!

@Paul,

Read 'Discipleship.' It's heavy, but it's worth it. And it will make better sense what DB meant when he said that.

As to your question, I didn't answer it because:
a) it confuses justification with sanctification
b) it's a bad question. My score is 100% because of the One who changed it. That has nullified my guilt (freedom), but not my responsibility (sonship/friendship). And
c) sanctification isn't about how I measure up. It's about living as a new creation because of grace.

Sanctification shouldn't be confused with perfectionism. And the obedience side of the coin is not less grace-filled. It is grace because it reminds us who we are and why, even as it reminds us how to live. And it is grace because our ability to respond to the parameters of Christian life hinges on our connection to the Vine.

Steve,
Yes!! Un self-consciousness is what we goal. The example you mentioned is a perfect one concerning this issue. Here's another that came into my mind:
"But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,..." (Matthew 6,3)

John,
Agreed! Period.

Sharon

What I am about to say I am sure Tullian and all who contribute to this thread agree upon.

All Christians sin and all Christians feel the weight of sin. Failure makes us feel wretched and may even make us question our salvation. These thoughts and feelings are not unusual. In fact, when we become Christians our sensitivity to what is sin and what grieves our father increases. The gospel, as Tullian consistently and properly points out, is the answer to these thoughts and feelings.

It is the answer in a number of ways.

Firstly it reassures us our acceptance by God is based squarely and firmly and only on Christ's death and resurrection. Those who believe in Christ are beyond all accusation, condemnation or rejection. We are fully accepted children of God. Where Christ is at this moment in heaven is where we are too as those 'in Christ'. When Satan points to our failures and tries to undermine our assurance of God's love and acceptance we must refuse to listen to him and look outside ourselves to all that God has done in Christ and glory and wonder and rejoice in this.

Secondly, if we wish to grow in grace and godliness the way to do so is not so much to look at injunctions/imperatives/laws in the bible and then try to obey them and measure ourselves against them in some kind of performance oreintated way. Rather we should look again at the gospel, that is Christ, all he is and all he has accomplished, and as we do this we will find our hearts longing to be more like him and our behaviour becoming almost unconsciously more Christ-like. Meditating on the gospel draws us into a deeper intimacy in our relationship with God and a likeness to him.

Thirdly, we will sin. We never excuse our sin but nor are we crushed by it. When we sin we confess it and our father freely forgives us. There are a few dangers here: a) we may so focus on self that we are constantly finding sin. This is a mistake. We must look outside of ourselves to the gospel and Christ b) we should remember that the flesh is always suggesting sinful ways to us. However, these tempations do not belong to the real me, the new me I am in Christ. They belong to the old me, the nature I had in Adam, the flesh. We must do at least two things here by faith. We must believe the gospel when it tells us God no longer sees us in terms of this old me. I am not responsible for the wretched and sinful thoughts it throws up, only for what I do with them. What I ought to do is reject them and turn away from them. This I can do by the indwelling Spirit and I do so by focussing my mind on the new life that the gospel displays in Jesus. I look away from myself and rejoice again in gospel truths. When we are occupied with Christ we are not occupied with self and sin.

Thirdly, remember too we cannot do everything. Satan not only accuses us with what we do wrong but he sets up false accusations. We live in an age of unreal expectations. Some of what you may think is sin and failure may well not be so at all. We must all live within the measure of grace and faith God gives. Whatever, take it as a norm that when you are seeking to live in communion with God Satan will do his level best to undermine your joy and peace by casting up sin - real or imaginary. He will succeed if you live introspectively. Don't try to argue, to rationalise, or temporise with the thoughts. Answer the accusations by one word - grace. Simply look at at God and rejoice as by faith you gladly confess 'the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses me from all sin'. Look outside yourself to God and Christ and refuse to listen to his accusations he will eventually flee from you. Cultivate looking outside. It goes against nature and against culture but is the way of gospel peace.

An old hymn says it well. This is the first verse but the rest can be found online.

I hear the accuser roar
Of ills that I have done
I know them well and thousands more
Jehovah findeth none.

Paul

'Taylor, Do you obey 100% of the time? If you don’t…it just takes once…your score is “O”.'

This is only true if under law. It is law (obedience that will merit life) that requires 100% for life. The obedience of the believer is not to gain life but is the display of life already received. It is not legal obedience but filial obedience.

In the most technical sense, the new life within us can never sin. The flesh can to be sure but the flesh has died on the cross. The new life/nature that lives by faith only produces godliness. It is of course the nature/life that is eternal. It is the new creation that will live forever.

again

'Deof, My work is to believe the Gospel 24/7 and not be concerned about sin at all.'

Well, yes and no. We should not be concerned about sin as something which condemns us or can enslave us. We should never allow it to accuse us and oppress us. However, we should be concerned about sin in the sense of resisting it when it tempts us and confessing it in sorrow when it trips us and we stumble. We should hate sin and flee from it.

Paul

At the risk of oversimplification, the biblical teaching is that in volitional sense the unbeliever never obeys while the believer obeys but does so imperfectly. As long as he leans on Christ by walking in step with the Spirit through faith he does obey and his obedience pleases God and gains a 'well done'. His obedience is never that of a slave (forced and to avoid punishment) but of a son (glad and to bring glory and joy his Father); it is the obedience of Christ. All of course is by grace through faith.

"Only the believer obeys, and only the obedient believe. To hold either statement over and above the other is to understand neither"

Taylor Said: We aren’t talking about justification here, but about sanctification.

Taylor, Once someone only believes, they are Justified. With that in mind I can only take the Bonhoeffer Discipleship quote one way. If you are not a believer you want obey and if your not obedient your not a believer. As for the question I ask about your obedience score 0%-100% you did not answer it. Don't worry you are not alone. I have ask this question to many people and no one has ever answered it. God Bless

Everybody on here has a solid case Taylor. There isn't one person on this blog who can't justify their position with scripture after scripture.
In order for anyone... anyone... to put a quantifiable label on their sanctification process they must move into the realm of the pharisee... "I'm better than all these others who aren't as obedient as I am. Oh and by the way... I Thank you God for all you've done in me."
The older I get the more I understand how much grace/mercy God gives daily... for me in Christ. And not simply in my justification but my sanctification too.
God has made it so simple for us that I wonder if we can actually comprehend its simplicity.
It isn't cheap grace... it cost God His one and only Son. It's cheap from my end because I didn't do anything to get it. And since God gives as a gift (all of it) I can't earn the right to keep it.
"Believe in the One who He has sent and you will be saved." Add anything to that and you are no longer talking about grace.

@Mitchell and Paul,

We aren't talking about justification here, but about sanctification.

No one I'm aware of that believes the gospel would make a case for man taking an active role in justification. On the other hand, it is difficult, incredibly difficult, to make a biblical case for a passive sanctification. Both flow from Christ. Both require grace upon grace. Part of the difference is that the one also requires active use of the grace given us.

One of the difficulties of discussing sanctification in this setting is that both sides resort to a sort of splicing of the Bible for the sake of being brief.

So, instead of me trying to sum up hundreds of years of study on sanctiication into a paragraph, read Bonhoeffer's "Discipleship", Ryle's "Holiness," or John Owen if you've got the time. I think you'll find they put out a solid case for why this open letter was true yet incomplete; half of a coin, as it were.

p.s. it's been like trying to catch your breath long enough to grow inwho you are in Christ, before you deal with the condemnation of what you didn't do.....and then starting back ober at square one. :>(

Hating to put a question in open forum, I'm hoping to get a response from the author of the blog (not a bunch of open opinions :>) I am a gal that has fought in the last couple of years...needing so dearly an understanding of grace. There are so many theological opinions. The whole subject of assurance of salvation. I am studying who I am in Christ and am so grateful for the massive love that God has shown me....I'll go outside my home and feel such a burden for the lost. Then I think I should witness to different people, and when I don't then it's this accussation that I don't love God enough or don't care about the lost enough, or that maybe I'm not really saved anymore and so I can't really claim who I am in Christ anymore. I know.....sounds like the enemy written all over it. It seems like I've missed a key component in what I believe about salvation and God, but what is it? Maybe you can explain it to me theologically so I can put it all to rest. I WANT to witness, I WANT to obey God. I just don't want to feel condemned or driven about it. Thanks......

There are law-works and grace-works; law-works work for salvation while grace-works work from salvation. The difference is eternity wide. Christians do the latter works.

Deof,All works either carried out by believers or unbelievers are tainted,J.C.RYLE :Even the best things we do have something in them to be pardoned:

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14,15)

"Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13,10)

Whoever loves Jesus will love his neighbors. This appears to me is the one and only obedience God is looking for.

Deof, My work is to believe the Gospel 24/7 and not be concerned about sin at all. The more I believe the Gospel and am overwhelmed by God’s grace the more of his power I receive to love God and others as my self. To be honest, I sin no more or less than any of you, I just don’t worry about it. God Bless

P.S. Sorry about the above post that was so poorly composed.

Taylor, Do you obey 100% of the time? If you don't...it just takes once...your score is "O". If you say you do obey 100% of the time you deceive yourself and the Truth is not in you. God does not score on a curve. You either score a perfect 100% in obedience or O%. One more thing about the above article, why do you think that anyone who believes their only work is to believe the Gospel does not obey? That is the point of the article. God Bless

Deof, Sorry, my work is to believe the Gosple 24/7 and not be concerned about sin at all. The more I believe the Gosple and am overwhelmed by God's grace the more power I love God and others as my self. To be honest I sin no more or less than any of you, I just don't worry about it. God Bless

Taylor,
And exactly how much stock do you place in your "obedience" or your "understanding of obedience?"

Christ was asked the question "What must we do to be doing the works of God?" I'll leave it to you to answer.

[...] You can read Tullian and Elyse’s post on this subject here. [...]

This is a great illustration of one side of the coin Bonhoeffer describes in Discipleship; 'only the believer obeys.' I think he had it right when he explained that those who emphasize the other necessary component of discipleship, 'only the obedient believe,' need to be confronted with this truth.

It is equally true that there are those who hold to only this side of the coin, and so need to be reminded of its reverse, 'only the obedient believe.' Is it true that the antinomian doesn't understand grace well enough? Yes. But, it is also true that he doesn't understand obedience in the slightest.

There aren't grace-loving antinomians. But there are grace-claiming antinomians who preach this exact message and then make a pious show of their disobedience. Dietrich Bonhoeffer knew them. J.C. Ryle knew them. James knew them. Paul himself knew them.

Only the believer obeys, and only the obedient believe. To hold either statement over and above the other is to understand neither.

@ Steve Martin: I agree that works may be found in unbelievers, but whatever works they commit will always be tainted.

@ Paul: I don't think the problem is necessarily hearing about sin, but rather when one focus on it so intensely that one loses sight of grace.

Steve, from Winnipeg, "They became got very intolerant of hearing about sin" Wow, imagine the nerve of someone not wanting to go to church and get a good old dose of condemnation. Personally I don't get enough from satan so I need some well meaning man/woman to add to it. It is just so liberating. Just kidding (tounge in cheek). But seriously, when I was always thinking and being told about my sins I could not escape a certan sin cycle. When I started to live overwhelmed by grace,that cycle was broken. I realize I will always sin and I will always need a savior. You or no one else can change my mind because all I know, I was blind but now I see. God Bless

Deof,

Of course 'good works' will come (after faith). Works are even present in the unbeliever.

That is why (as you rightly say) that God and the individual may be the only ones who can see them. And I'd have to question the individual's ability to know for sure.

That is why "we walk by faith and not by sight".

Looking to our works as proof of anything is a dubious exercise.We ought look outward (extra nos) for something that is totally reliable, 100% of the time. The Word and Sacraments are all that we can truly count on.

Thanks.

Today's sermon (12-18-11) fits in very nicely with Tullian's post here:

http://theoldadam.wordpress.com/2011/12/19/law-or-grace-we-dont-want-either-one/

It's only about 16 min. ...well worth it.

I hope you don't mind my replying to Joshua's comments:
1) While there is a difference between faith and works, the former (if real) will necessarily lead to the latter. Any claim to have real faith when such "faith" fails to produce works is a false one.
2) There seems to be some confusion here between the "moment" of repentance and the long-term effects of (true) repentance.
3) I think faith brings about an objective change (even if the only ones who can see it are God and the individual).
4) The "political power" (whatever that means) that should mold one's faith should be the Holy Spirit, not the church.
5) To speak of the "American church" as if it were some monolithic organization ignores reality.
6) Just what do you think is a stronger argument against "by grace alone"?

[...] reading here: GA_googleAddAttr("AdOpt", "1"); GA_googleAddAttr("Origin", "other"); [...]

If I were follow ANYONE around for a day and watch their behavior "in practice" and "in their thoughts" I would inevitably come to the conclusion at some point in the day... they are not a Christian. This is true even for the "I'm progressively getting better" crowd... though they're too blind to see it; they're really serious about God.

Think of the dying. Those at the very end of life. What are the words of comfort you would give? "Let's examine your life for proof of a progressive sanctification??"

All believers in the end are exactly like the believing "thief on the cross" holding out till the bitter end. Even the moralists and pietists love their "obedience... although not perfect obedience" (we have to throw that in there...right... imperfect?) for the sake of obedience. They love to have faith in anything but Christ's work "for us" and they don't even know it.

Everyone will see their life as a failure in the end... if they're honest. Our lives can only be justifiably/sanctifiably worth anything through the work of Christ alone if there is to be any hope at all.

FAM's comment serves up as the perfect example of the self-righteousness that plagues the church. You can even see his/her "superiority complex" in the words... as if God is more disgusted with Luther's "humble" view of the Christian life than their own "near-perfect (although not-perfect) obedience."

We don't use the law (what we do or don't do) to show that we are really Christians, or to bolster our obedience to Christ.

On the contrary. The law is used (by God) to kill us off to those ideas. To show us our definite need of a Savior.

It's far too late to try and recapture our innocense by what we do or don't do.

Tullian,
I'd like to correct myself. "God's Gratuitous Grace" was posted on 8 November, not December.

Tullian,
Reading the answer you gave to Melissa further up I dare to ask you a similar question. Would you mind me taking over a passage of your blog posting into the book I'm writing?
It's only a matter of your post on "God's gratuitous Grace" (Dec 8, 2011), to be precise, the latter part, Isaac Watt's poem included. I've already translated it into German though it's been a little bit difficult as to the poem's rhyming scheme because I wanted to retain the rhyming couplet.

So that you don't have to do a blind bargain I'll give you some more information about me.

I'm 46, married and mother of a fourteen-year-old daughter. We live in Fürth nearby Nürnberg - uh, Nuremberg in English - and I'm business graduate. I started writing in 2002 gung-ho to express my experiences with God.
But over the years it has been such a frustrating job for me. I wrote day and night enthusiastically stringing pages together but, finally, I was at my wit's end realizing that I failed over and over again. I never could illustrate any extraordinary experience with God just the way it has been actually. And so I deleted the first book, the second,...
Meanwhile I re-rejoice in writing days and nights because God helps a lot. Today I often succeed in expressing what I really mean esp. concerning my inner feelings because God has brillant ideas. A particular very good one was to read your blog entries and listen to your sermons on the Internet, Tullian. You were the one liberating the last bonds of legalism which kept me imprisoned for almost seventeen years.

Thanks a bunch and best wishes!
God bless

Steve,
Well said! Considering how much people I would like to kill every day because they drive me up the wall...

Jim,
It's so true that only love can sting us into fulfilling the law without giving any thought to it because we love to love due to His love for us. By the way, you are a born poet...

Tullian,
Indeed, only a deeper knowledge of grace prevents from disobedience by e.g. killing others. Strangely enough, Jesus has a delightful sense of humor. If I hadn't told him daily who I hate and who I'd like to kill, I surely would have become as the Norwegian man above-mentioned.
Jesus gets everything. Without any no-no He often makes me laugh about my absurd reflections and thus - what a miracle - I begin to love myself with all my deficiencies and failures.

God bless you all

Are we not confusing Common Grace with Saving Grace? (Matthew 7v21)
Our fellowship with God is not based on our ability, be it Law keeping or otherwise.God delights in me because HE has made me HIS own, through Christs work, not mine, and my character conformity is the fruit of His delight in me, not the reason.
If life is about you, sin will come easily!
This response is to the comments,not your article Pastor Tchividjian

I respectfully think that this brand of "by grace alone" is too confident in the autonomy of the individual. If "being gripped" is this sort of constant subjective attitude to follow Christ and keep his commandments, then we should acknowledge the political powers that have molded that subjectivity (hopefully the Church).

By accounting for faith and works as a dualism, the assumption is that this kind of attitude can be created by an unmediated "moment" of repentance. Because the political context of the "decision" is not articulated, it's easy to see how we could be slaves to an ideology (i.e. liberal capitalism) without being aware of it. If we consider an American Church that supports things like violence, exploitation of the weak, etc., then I think the critique gains more credibility.

I don't necessarily mean to demean or even disagree with this post, but I think you're addressing a weak critique of your position when you could be addressing a stronger one.

While, I am not a follower of law, but a follower of Jesus, I do believe that we are to obey Him. Jesus himself said that if we loved Him, we would obey Him. The truth is, I have met the people fictionalized in this article. Those who claim to know God, go to church, but absolutely refuse to read their Bibles, to follow His word. They all claim "saved by grace" I have even see someone refute scripture claiming "grace." It's a misunderstanding of the word, a very sad thing. God addresses the issue himself in James 1:22-26. Again, I follow Jesus, not law, and I think the article an interesting rebuttal to legalism, however, slightly unsound. Perhaps, the author may consider a fuller explanation of just what it means to encounter the grace of God.

from a recent post on thereforenow:

I think a lot of people who are trying to believe, think that death to sin and the resurrection to righteous living means that the Holy Spirit somehow empowers you to soldier on under the law better. The standard for behavioral transformation still hovers over you like a cloud, but the Holy Spirit enables you to do the hellish thing you hate, and do it a little more faithfully. I really don’t think this is how it works, and I don’t think this is the meaning of dying to sin and being raised with Christ to newness of life. I think it means that like sleeping beauty you have been in a death sleep, and true love’s kiss has woken you up to a fantastic romance, and you gladly do ten times the things the law says because you do it all from love. The magic that drives Christian virtue isn’t the behavior, it is the love and desire. Love is what is empowered into us. The law looks for behavior, but grace looks for love.

Elyse asks 'Antinomian',"Have you forgotten the bloody disgrace of the cross you deserve?"
I ask Elyse: Have you ever encountered a 'Christian' with an antinomian bent who actually thinks they deserve the cross?
If she has, she definitely runs in different 'Christian' circles than I do. My life experience suggests that those who do not think they themselves deserve the cross most need but can least accept His Offer of Grace. I fear too many 'Christians' think themselves 'nice' or 'good' or both and for that reason do not think they themselves deserve the cross. And for that reason don't "get" Grace.

This is a great post. Tullian, I agree and have encountered some Christians who have this fear that you speak of. I pray that more people will begin to understand that those who are antinomian really do not understand grace. However, when we who have embraced God's grace and are consumed with the gospel do meet Mr. Antinomian, hopefully we take the initiative to explain what the true grace of our Lord Jesus Christ really is. Hopefully, this fear of sharing grace because of Mr. Antinomian only diminishes.

Thanks for this post.

Merry Christmas!!

and so we are compelled to pray unceasingly that God through our great Lord and Savior Jesus would continue to pour out grace and mercy upon us to awaken us all to His majesty; how great and mighty and worthy He is of all our love and devotion.

FAM,

The point of this post is to demonstrate that a person like the one you illustrate with above, doesn't get grace. As I say above, I’ve never met anyone who has been truly gripped by God’s amazing grace in the gospel who then doesn’t care about obeying him. When our hearts are genuinely grasped by God’s unconditional love, the last thing we want to ask is, “What can I get away with?” Those who conclude, “Goody, I can now continue in sin til my heart’s content” prove that they don’t get grace. As I’ve said before: antinomianism happens not when we think too much of grace. Just the opposite, actually. Antinomianism happens when we think too little of grace.

By the way, keep reading Romans 6. Paul corrects a misunderstanding of grace with a deeper explanation of grace. He doesn't shy away from grace, he presses it further in.

Peace

Though Anders Behring Breivik (a nominal Lutheran) only killed 69 persons on July 22, 2011, he tried to attain Dr. Martin Luther’s goal:

“No sin will separate us from [Jesus Christ] even though we rape and murder a thousand times a day.”

But the Holy Bible sends the exact opposite message:

“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?”
-Romans 6:1-2

Why would anyone be surprised when a devout Evangelical someday also takes Luther at his word?

Can Luther's brand of grace produce disobedience? You bet.

Do those in Christ wish to run roughshod over their neighbors? I think not. Does it happen now and then? I think so.

Someone murders people. Does that disqualify them for the grace of God? It does not. How many people have we murdered in our hearts?
Jesus tells us that if we are angry with our brother, then we are a murderer.

Hi Melissa!

Feel free to post it.

Merry Christmas!

This letter is so powerful and moving. My husband and I are missionaries in Spain. I would LOVE to post Elyse's letter on my blog. Can I get your permission to do this? Is there anyone or anything else I need to contact to get permission? Thank you for posting such a moving post.

It looks like John and James encounter it, so that is the reason they wrote some of their letters. You can even see in Galatians in chapter 5 and 6 Paul balancing the teaching by mention the life in the Spirit and living according to the law of Christ.

Pastor
I am hoping to speak with Elyse in February. Ive heard so much about her and her work. Looking forward to the conferance.

I think preaching grace is necessary that people are released from paralysing effect of the fear of hell. You know, the thought that you will go to hell if you don't perform good enough.

When we've finally grasped the basic doctrine of justification by faith in Christ and understand how secure we are in Christ, we can start challenge ourselves in the relationship with God and to grow in obedience.

I've noticed that Paul says in the Colossians (1:4-5) that the great hope we have in the Gospel produces love in the body of Christ.

Tullian,

I've heard you speak and like your writings and if you have the time, I'd welcome your wisdom.

Have you ever heard of the teachings of Jim Richards? http://www.impactministries.com/

He has a supposed radical grace message. Over the past year a small number of folk from my flock got into his books and talks. They became got very intolerant of hearing about sin and the scriptural challenges to follow/obey the Lord. They left the church very angry and ungraciously. I thought we were preaching free justification by grace alone through faith alone.

I am curious as to your thoughts? Have you encountered such teaching?

Yours, Steve