[...] Tullian: I close my book Surprised by Grace: God’s Relentless Pursuit of Rebels with a story (not sure if this really happened or is simply parabolic) from Civil War days before America’s slaves were freed, about a northerner who went to a slave auction and purchased a young slave girl. As they walked away from the auction, the man turned to the girl and told her, “You’re free.” [...]

Jesus was numbered with the transgressors, we are not above our master so we follow him outside the camp...We love not our own lives, even unto death...surrendering in victory, dying to live. Who would choose these things? We have been called to life by a voice who creates and recreates...As long as you believe your Free will has priority over God's will you cannot honestly pray "Thy will be done"

John, thanks for your post in reply to my comments. I agree that my statement about not getting any better here is very weak. . as are most things I say. My point in context was simply that we cannot hope in getting better, that is misplaced hope. Our hope should be in Christ's ability and sufficiency to rescue us even if we don't get any better.

I fully agree that how it ACTUALLY plays out is that we DO get better b/c of Christ's work IN us. My point (poorly made, i agree) is simply that if we put our hope there we will be doing so in vain. In fact - and I know this from experience - when placing our hope in our getting better, i have found that I only end up feeling worse b/c i keep on sinning over and over again. So, that comment was a Romans 7 statement that obviously breaks down quickly.

As far as sending us back to our former husband, i don't remember saying that. He doesn't place us back UNDER the law, but to say that the Law has no use for us today, is I believe unbiblical. I agree that it is difficult to understand the Law's place in our life with Christ, but Paul himself says that the Law is holy and good and righteous. He agrees with the Law of God in his inner being. . So, there's something to the Law even AFTER we know Christ and he has set us free from the Law. It is still useful. Without the law, how would we know what sin is? But as soon as we realize our sin, our response is to repent and believe. . not for the first time all over again, but the daily repentance we learn to rejoice in b/c we are free. It is no longer our master, but still points us to our new master. I think the difference is in how we view it positionally. Instead of being condemned by it, we are now able to see how useful it is to point out where we are not enjoying all that God has for us. That is the gist of what I was TRYING to say in my earlier post. I'm no wordsmith though and I appreciate and was encouraged by the story of the two husbands. I do NOT believe that Christ sends us back to the Law. I think the Law is part of who we are now and that the Holy Spirit uses the Law to help us enjoy the fulness of God and all that He has for us. I hope that is clear. If not, please feel free to help me see where I can be more clear. Thanks,
Shane

You don't dee in Scripture where St. Paul describes the Christian life as "being saved" ?

It's there.

You don't look at Romans 7 and see a man who constantly walks away from faith and needs to be led back (repentance) to Christ?

It's there.

You don't see the attitude of contriteness and repentance that Jesus describes in the parable of the tax collector and Pharisee?

It's there.


This is where we Lutherans depart from SO MANY Evangelicals.

Christian salvation is a process instituted by, and carried out by God. This is where the Word and the Sacraments come in.
It's not a a one shot deal and then it's over. It's a living relationship that one side is absolutely committed to and the other side is weak, and often faithless.

Shane

An illustarion that may help to show why it is mistaken to think that when we sin we are sent back to the law to kill us and drive us to Christ.

Suppose a woman is married to a husband who is a bit of a tyrant. He is always pointing out her faults and failings. He is always accusing her and condemning her behaviour. She can never meet his standards. he is austere and unbending. He never forgives or helps her in any way. He only demands and demands and demands. Indeed her failings are so great before him that he demands her death.

Then a miracle happens. She is rescued from this harsh husband and marries another. This new husband is kind and gracious. He forgives all her faults. He recognises her weaknesses and helps her in all she does. He is her strength, guide, and rock. Then one day she does something particularly wayward and wrong. What does this kind, forgiving and gracious husband do?

Does he say to her - I'm going to send you back to the old husband to remind you what life was like married to him, then you'll appreciate me more? Is that how he acts? Is this consistent with all she has come to know of his love and kindness towards her? Of course not. This would be tantamount to disowning her. It would be a contradiction of all he is. Insead he will entreat her by grace. He will remind her of all his love and this will draw her back.

Now much more can be said I know. But the basic picture is sound. It is in fact the picture of Roms 7: 1-6. Indeed, there it is impossible to send her back to her first husband because the first husband has died. The relationship is forever broken (in the gospel reality of course it is the woman who dies). Jesus does not send his people back to the law from which he has delivered them. To do so would be to deny his redeeming work on the cross. It was from the law among other things he came to deliver them.

Hope this helps reflection on these matters.

Shane

Steve expresses well exactly the problem I have with this view of law and gospel; it is as if we have to be converted over and over again. I do not see this in Scripture. It is true that as believers our faith practically fails and we repent rejoicing in gospel forgiveness. However when our faith fails we fail as believers not unbelievers. Our status as children of God does not cease. We are not sent back to the law by God (though we may send ourselves back). When we sin the Holy Spirit within is grieved and causes us to feel our distance and folly. Also when we sin the Lord Jesus brings our need for restoration to the father (1 Jn 1).

I wonder if any can provide a Scripture which says we are sent back to law as believers to kill us every time we fail. Often the NT writers appeal to aspects of the gospel to shame believers and provoke obedience but not the condemning voice of law. Indeed the idea of killing believers removes us from Christian ground. What we need to realise is that we are already dead. This is a matter of faith not the law. It arises from the cross and not the law. The difference is profoundly important for the killing of the law is one of condemnation but the killing of the cross is one of life and grace. The purpose and nature of the law is an important area of difference in this discussion.

Shane, you write,

'but “we ain’t gonna get much better here, which is why Jesus died for us!”


For me this is too weak a slogan. Jesus died for us to accomplish a full and comprehensive salvation. He died and rose again that he may justify us, sanctify us, and glorify us... and even saying this is insufficient. In terms of this present discussion one major aspect of why Jesus died is that he may 'redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works'(Tit 2:14). We should never think fatalistically 'we aint gonna get much better here'. We may think of it as 'realism' but actually it is the thinking of unbelief.

John 10:27 continues with the Lord’s statement “they follow me,” which teaches satisfaction. The Greek word for “follow” (akolouthousin, which means are following) is the present active participle of akoloutheo. The Bible does not teach that Christians will not sin, but it does teach that we will repent and return to following Christ. People who are the sheep of God will genuinely repent when we hear the truth. our repentance will not be forced. It will come from the heart because the grace of God within us prompts it. This is progressive sanctification. Seeking assurance of election outside of holiness of life is nonsense. Election is inseparable from holiness of life: “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy
and without blame before him in love” (Eph. 1:4). There is too much literary grace and not enough experimental grace among professing Christians. Without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Heb. 12:14). Sanctification is not like a pump which sends forth water only when primed from without. It is like an artesian well from which a stream is ever spontaneously and naturally flowing.

John.M.
And of course this is to say nothing of James 2. My point is, whatever our theology, we must factor in this strong strand of NT (and OT) teaching if we are to have a rounded biblical position.

Yes indeed! Could it really be other then that way? I believe not. John M. said, one must understand the wrath of God - First- before we can truly understand His righteousness... and that teaching you will learn in the Ot. As a a matter of fact John this is what our (my wife's and I) reading was for today as we continue our journey through the OT...2Ch 15:1 Now the Spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded.
2Ch 15:2 And he went out to meet Asa, and said to him: "Hear me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin. The LORD [is] with you while you are with Him. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you...
And we surely do see that numerous times...but how many of us really get it?

Right, Shane.

Law to kill us and drive us to Christ (over and over and over again...because WE DO walk away from faith in Jesus...on a daily basis)...

And gospel to raise us again, bring us home, give us new life...over and over and over again (St. Paul says "for those of us who ARE BEING saved..." (look it up)

Fellers,

What do you think about the following?

Without the law, we would have no need for the Gospel. Even after we have been promised rescue FROM the law, He still uses it to show us our inability to keep it and therefore our great need for the Gospel of Christ. You can't preach one without the other. How can you teach on Christ's fulfillment of the Law for us if we don't talk about the Law? How can we preach on the continued fulfillment of the Law for us if we don't talk about the Law now? I think Tullian's point is that our HOPE is not in our ability to keep the Law, but in Christ's having ALREADY KEPT it! His point is what drives us to glorify God - clearly it's grace which INSTRUCTS us to deny ungodliness. But we still need to know how to define ungodliness. That's where the preaching of the Law comes in. Not to oversimplify it, b/c i think this is an issue we will wrestle with until Jesus comes back, but "we ain't gonna get much better here, which is why Jesus died for us!"

So, i think what Tullian is trying to communicate is that our HOPE should be in the Gospel and not in our ability to get better.

Thanks for the great communication back and forth!
Shane

Jeremiah,
Yeah I hear what you are saying. I simply don't think the natural tendency is to move toward living under license when confronted with a forensic justifying decree from God on account of Christ's sake. When you or I sin... it is 'willful' at the moment of sin. No one sins without having a desire to do so. If this is so we all have some sort of idea that "God will forgive me anyway" at that particular moment. That isn't to say we never struggle with sin... and I would say we all avoid sin or turn from opportunities to sin many times in our life... we also fail many times as well.
Ask me if a certain thing is a sin and I will say yes. Depending on what it is I also may say I can never promise you nor God that I'll never commit that particular sin. I have my tendencies toward particular transgressions... it may/may not be a temptation you struggle with. I'm not sure I'm getting my point across. I'll let you respond further. Thanks for chiming in man.

Jeremiah

I am in total agreement with you. Thanks for comments. I understand Mitchell's concerns but I fear - unless a deep legalism exists, which where law is IMO wrongly understood is always possible - the real problem in the western world is not legalism but licence.

But Mitchell, the apostle Paul himself cautions that we do not distort grace.

Gal 5:13-14 (ESV)
For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

I have seen the devastating, 'God will forgive me so its ok' fruits of hyper-grace from sincere well intentioned churches and leadership. Clarity in these matters is of utter importance. Jesus responded to sin in the body by calling believers to repent, not by preaching more grace. Rev. 2 and 3.
We do urgently need to see the call of repentance as coming from the depths of our Father's love and a hopeful call because of the Spirit or else we will fall into legalism.

Mitchell- I am not there, I am in Him and simply desiring to cling to Him more through a new life, heart and nature as He upholds me.

Jeremiah,
I think more/most christians, than either you or John would give credit to, are seeking to obey God... the law of Christ... love. They do this without having someone whip their spiritual backsides with constantly reminding them "...that you better be seeing this or that in your life or you may not be who you think you are." In effect scaring the whatsa's out of them. If one has a "doctorate level" in obedience... give the rest of us time. We'll be there with you one day... God promises that.

What kind of father is it that would chastise a son who wants to please his father because of the father's lavish love upon his child, and not because the son wants to earn the love?
I do know those who take the imperatives as a the key to acceptance, but they do not make others, who respond to grace with wanting to live with sacrificial obedience through the new life given to us by such a loving Father, legalist or self justifiers.

Perhaps bigger questions would be, what is the law of Christ -law of the Spirit, law of love-, how is it different than the law of Moses, and how should we respond to this?

Mitchell

You're right, where we place our focus is important. While I think we must keep the whole gospel intact in our preaching and avoid one-sidedness, I do accept that different situations will call for a different emphasis.

I cannot comment with any authority on life on your side of the Atlantic. Over here, in the UK, our problem is not so much legalism or excess piety, but low levels of Christian living. I'm afraid, the flesh is very active. Many live for money. Sensuality is very common. There is little censorship of the films we will watch. Secular music is explicit and raw yet Christians seem to listen indiscrimately. Idols of the heart are prevalent. Personal ambitions and agendas replace the interests of Jesus Christ. Any thought that being a Christ means dying to self and cross bearing like Jesus is considered too radical. The good life and personal fulfilment seem to be the main goals. Folks are happy to know their sins are forgiven but don't want to hear that this has implications for how they live thereafter. I find the temptation strong in me to presume on God's grace and choose a life of quiet self-indulgence. I need to hear often what God has done in Christ, the exhortation to look often at Christ, and the call to become like him.

Great point, Mitchell.

It's the "focus" that is the important difference.

Many emphasize 'what we do', or 'what we ought do, or feel'.

We emphasize God's grace. The gospel. It is the power to change hearts and lives. And not the law.

Eternal life comes from God who is eternal life. The peculiar quality of this life that Jesus Christ has been appointed to give to the elect is that it issues in quantity of life. From our perspective, this life reaches back into the eternal past and forward into the eternal future. We are so conscious of our mortality that we think of life in terms of quantity. We have endless life in Jesus Christ.But this eternal life would be impossible without its quality. The beginning of the new life in regeneration cannot be engineered by persuasive eloquence that produces nothing more than a mental assent. Religious institutions are loaded with people who have done no more than give a mental assent to life; hence, they do not have life.

Yes... I agree John. The difference between yours and my view... it seems perhaps... is where we tend to place our focus. People don't need a "nanny' mentality with every mention of the Grace of God toward sinners. Grace can be distorted in more than one direction.
As I have stated before... I find the legalistic/pietistic/moralistic person to be the primary church member... they have absolutely no grasp of imputed righteousness. The person you fear, the one who will distort Grace into uninhibited sinful living, I have yet to meet; I'm not saying they're nonexistent but I think they are very few. I do know lots of folks who care nothing about God/Salvation/Sin etc. who live unfettered lifestyles... outside of the church though.

Mitchell

I agree that our standing before God is entirely in Christ. I do not serve God to become righteous for I am already righteous. Absolutely and amen. Alongside this we must however remember that in some way God also rewards righteousness in his people.

We must factor in some of the following texts which do speak of righteous living.

Rom 2:6-11 (ESV)
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.

Acts 10:34-35 (ESV)
So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

1Cor 3:8 (ESV)
He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor.

1Cor 3:12-15 (ESV)
Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw- each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

2Cor 5:10 (ESV)
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Rev 19:8 (ESV)
????????it was granted her to clothe herself ???????with fine linen, bright and pure”- ?????????????????for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. ???

And of course this is to say nothing of James 2. My point is, whatever our theology, we must factor in this strong strand of NT (and OT) teaching if we are to have a rounded biblical position.

Follow the way the writers of the nt did it. Cant be improved upon

1. Justification = God's work
2. Sanctification = God's work
3. Repentance = God's work
4. Resurrection = God's work

I know God works these out in me in real-time. He has assured me of that.

Good Works = my work - for my neighbor - not my righteousness (of any kind) before God.

I think it is useless to argue about grace or imperatives. People are in different stages.

A pastor who is sensitive to the Holy Spirit will know what to preach to his flock. Sometimes we need to be corrected, sometimes we need to be assured of our position in Christ. Both will enable us to live more godly life.

obviously you didn't read my comment. i guess paul was an opponent of grace when he spent much ink on numerous details of the sanctified life. was it pauls attempt to be a vague attempt to justify himself? I said Christ and the gospel are the foundation. But does building upon that imply a negation of it. paul didn't stop at gospel indicatives but also preached the imperatives red herring again. Please read the entirety of romans, then the nt. but watch out for those vague attempts by the writers to teach works righteousness.

Michial
I have yet to hear of one Pastor/Bible teacher focus on God's grace too much. Belief or Faith that we are actually justified before God for Christ's sake is a much harder... impossible "work" than trying to stop sinning. Clinging to the cross of Christ alone is an impos- sible task.

I'm beginning to think many of the repeated comments on this blog about obedience are vague attempts to justify themselves before God. They are also sentries placed to guard against what some may fear the Gospel of Christ will bring about. It's as if some think God can't control the results of His own "Salvation Project."

My comments don't seem to come up so quickly - I fear I am being monitored, Michial, another helpful comment. Many thanks.

Forgiveness of sin (freedom from guilt) I hope we will all agree is not the whole gospel. Freedom from sin, as a power/authority/tyrant is also an aspect of the gospel, a glorious aspect. I am no longer a slave of sin but have been set free to become a slave of righteousness. The grace of God teaches me to deny ungodliness... eager to do good works. Works that are not a plea for grace but a response to grace.

The gospel is about deliverance/redemption. What a privilege it si for us as believers to live in this freedom. We do so by treating as dead through the Spirit our 'self' and through the same Spirit living the life of Christ. We live it, as Paul says, yet not we, but Christ lives in us.

When I meet an alcoholic, a drug addict, an addict to pornography, I can tell him that bnot only his sins may be forgiven but he can be free from these sins that enslave him; now that is a gospel.

Paul preached the free grace of Christ better than Tullian or any other man alive, yet he also preached Romans 6 and the call for sanctification and obedience. He didn't stop with the indicatives. So yes we must have the indicatives of Christs person and work for us outside of us as the foundation, but we must also not stop at Romans 5 but go onto the rest of the book. Paul even told his pastors to teach,exhort, rebuke,etc. To say doing so is an addition to grace is a red herring and Paul would agree its a red herring. To preach all that Paul and the apostles taught in light of the gospel is not works righteousness. THat is a red herring plain and simple. The gospel imperatives of the christian life are often abused but the abuse doesn't warrant the negation of it. Sometimes all I hear is justification by grace alone and nothing else, but Paul did not stop there even though that is the foundation. Do we only lay the foundation on a house. No. Lets let these awesome,scandalous truths of grace drive us on to a more mature Christ centered sanctified life He calls us to live. Paul did not only write Romans 4

I read Surprised by Grace and then led a book study on it over the summer. It helped draw me closer to God because, as counter-intuitive as it may sound, if we are given something unfettered freedom because of a gift so dearly priced, we will turn back toward the giver.

Here is a video of a police officer and a dog that demonstrates this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-OFO70Erjg It's a great illustration!

Actually there is a big movement of non-Reformed people who get what Tullian is saying. They are the Free Grace movement, check it out!

Lloyd Jones on Rom 6:1-2 said unless there are objections to your gospel preaching that it will lead to licentiousness then you have not preached the gospel. Keep up the focus Tullian. Do not be discouraged by any naysaying peers.

It's amazing. There's always at least one comment on Tullian's posts of 'cautionary measure' of taking Grace and mercy too far. I wonder if these folks would caution themselves and their family, friends, and guest whom they might invite for dinner to enjoy themselves at the table... "but be careful not to commit gluttony in your enjoyment."

Pastor
During the early years of my conversion i wondered why, He called as He did. The plan God has for my life is still unfolding as i go along in this walk.
I am very gratefull to your ministry pastor Tullian and i pray everyday to grow in grace while watching your ministry expand.
" God absolutely considered is a consuming fire Who demands justice and condemnation, but "God manifest in the flesh" is a purifying fire Who gives satisfaction and grace with commendation.
Every person is related to God either as a "consuming fire" without blood, or as a "consuming fire" with blood. Fire without blood is condemnation; fire with blood is commendation. The children of israel were blessed in the offerings they made because the offerings included both "fire" and "blood" Lev. 1-5. The "live coal" that was taken from off the altar purified Isaih's lips
Is 6:5-8 because it came off the altar where the offering of blood was made by fire. If the "live coal" had not come from the altar of sacrifice Isaiah would have been destroyed. the sacrifice of blood gave the fire a purifying effect. on the contrary, it will be well to observe the results of fire and no blood. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire because there was no sacrifice for blood. men will suffer the eternal fire of hell because they reject the blood of Jesus Christ. Heb 9:22 from "Studies in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ" W.E.Best

Mike, I agree with your comment completely. I do believe that there are a lot of non-reformed Christians that don't understand what Tullian and many others preach. And I would agree that they are Christians. Like you said, however, the only way for us to experience true joy, obedience, love, etc is to rejoice in the simple gospel message.

Pastor
I was living on Erastus St. in Providence RI on July 18 1979. two months after we buried my dear Grand Mere (me-mere); when without a shadow of a doubt God called me that day, could I SAY NO. How do you say no to a God who calls you in love. I wanted to reject His call but could not because of His Great love. I think about that often. The details of how He called me would be too involved. Let's just say it was a close encounter of the God kind.

Hi Tullian,

Introductory Essay
to John Owen’s Death of Death in the Death of Christ
J. I. Packer

Great piece of work. Thanks. I'm thankful Packer, yes, he's on a level most can appreciate. I enjoy his style. Once again I'm glad I followed up on your advice, I hope many listened to your just short of demanding to read this,(ha ha) it truely states it's case. Really good!

Now on this one I am on the same page. Amen. I would simply note that the love of God constrains us is the motivation, the power comes from the new life empowered by the Spirit.

Listening to Christian radio throughout the day and hearing the popular songs and many of the popular preachers I hear allot of the old- how much we fail as Christians and how much more we need to be doing for the Lord, how to get the victory or the only way to experience true joy is through obedience, why your kids are messed up or marriages and on & on it goes.Its a constant stream of subtle guilt and failure as a Christian. I can honestly say that this Gospel message that you pt are trying so hard to get out is utterly missed in our pop evangelical Christianity and IM NOT saying their not Christians although most Reformed will suggest that, but they do need to get this awesome truth about the stunning ramifications of the gospel. It takes a clear and exerted focus a constant meditation on this Gospel message it takes time and even prayer for it to even begin to take root. This is somewhat of a hidden treasure and if you want it we have go after it even though that sounds like a law itself. I am constantly blown away buy this radical grace and Gospel, thanks pt! Mike