[...] What is grace? [...]

Danny,

You hit the nail right on the head. Perfectly said!!
Rest. Finished. "Our Father". Period.

Susanne

Skye,

Know that I offer this to you with the prayer that I hear and believe it too: You can stop trying. Rest. "It is finished" (Jn 19:30). And, in prayer, when you are unsure of what to say or have nothing to say, perhaps go with the first two words of the Lord's Prayer. There is not much to say that "Our Father" doesn't.

Danny

[...] inspired non-formula for (possible) growth. And our friend Tullian Tchividjian reproduced a golden passage from PZ’s Grace in Practice.5. I lied. Back to dysfunction junction. USA Today took a look at [...]

We can't miss the point! It's not about us, our theology or our opinion. Grace is all about God! We can only receive it and hopefully give it to others. We are great at minimizing God's attributes. Of course we know that God will judge, for He is perfectly righteous (if we can even understand that truth) - but He is also perfect love (again, if we can even understand that truth) and we see his love ultimately demonstrated at Calvary.

We had no desire for God. We were blind, trapped and depraved and we still fall victim to these things. Yet, God did not only come to us, but also did it all for us. We could not do it for ourselves! That is grace!

But it is just like us (I am guilty as well). We are legalist's who are always tryiing to find out the formula or rationale for anything that is not within our control or grasp. As this article so directly points out - grace is about the giver and all the recipient of grace has to do with it is receive it. That's it!!

We should glorify God for His incomprehensible grace. After all He is God and we are but mere men who can only be transformed by everything grace includes for us. Anything short of being changed by God's graces is a sure sign that the Gospel of Grace has not truly been received.

I should know, I am a recipient of it. And I have failed and will continue to fail, but to say that I desire to live a lawless life is definitely not a result of grace, it's more a result of our sinfulness.

I read this and it just makes me want to cry. I want desperately to know that it is true, but I don't know how to believe it or maybe how to live in it. How do you relate to such a God? I don't really know how to receive such a love.

Skye

Two additional comments to those above.

1. Look out an evangelical pastor with whom you can discuss your journey in faith and your questions in a way that is not possible online.

2. Remember that faith is not firstly a matter of feeling but is a commitment of the will. Feelings follow faith but are not the essence of faith.

Feelings are subject greatly to our emotions. A depressed person, for example, may need to believe with his/her mind despite feelings that wish to lead the thoughts elsewhere. In depression the natural bent of the mind is to unbelief, despair, doubt and every other negative thought. Faith for him/her means affirming in the mind 'the blood of Jesus Christ God's son cleanses me from all sin' despite every emotion and thought screaming out otherwise. Slowly this affirmation of faith, repeated again and again, pushes out the unbelieving thoughts and the darkness lifts.

Your own situation may have nothing to do with depression but I use this as an example because to varying degrees faith may mean believing despite unbelief intruding. I believe, help my unbelief (Mk 9:24). The miracle of grace is that when we do believe like this God does in grace and time help us to overcome unbelief. The testimony of all God's people is: this poor man cried to the Lord and the Lord heard him (Ps 34:6).

Skye,

You can be sure that my thoughts and my prayers are with you. I guess I do know what you are talking about. There are times in our life when it seems impossible to believe and to trust in a loving God. At times I couldn't find the relationship with Him though I yearned for it.
Everything we receive from Him happens by grace alone. But there is one essential promise you can completely rely on, because Jesus assured us of the following gift He provides for us,

"And I tell you, ask, and you will be given; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you." (Luke 11:9)

What Jesus meant was simply praying to God, asking "the heavenly Father to give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him." (Luke 11:13). Maybe, you'll have to pray over and over again till such time as He will open Heaven for you and will pour out His Holy Spirit.
But, Skye, I promise that God will do it because this was my very experience. One day, almost twelve years ago, I used to pray for hours unceasingly and suddenly His Light turned on in a visible way. Of course, such a prayer, too, is a gift of God for nobody can pray for hours without interruption or even for days and nights. However, I clearly realize that you have a great wish to love Him, and this fact shows that you've already received a special gift of Him.

Sometimes we have to be "violent" in taking the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 11:12) and not to stop until we are blessed like Jacob who fought with God. And Jacob was allowed to see God face to face (Gen 32:30). Today it is possible to "see" God, too. Jesus promised again that He will be seen by His disciples (John 16:16-22). Looking at Him by worshipping God "in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24) is not as distinct as seeing a human creature with our physical eyes, and hence, the Apostle Paul compares this sight to a mirror, in which we can see Him "dimly" and "in part" (1 Cor 13:12).

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Apropos Steve Martin's link above - I also think this sermon could be a comfort for you.

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God bless you, Skye!

skye,

I think we are all (most, anyway) in the same boat. It's hard for us to believe it, and to live with it. We are hardwired for unbelief.

But faith is a gift. And God gives us gifts to keep us in faith. The life of faith is not easy. Much easier to have 'to do' lists and have someone check them off for us...but then that wouldn't be much in the way of faith.

Anyway, take comfort in knowing that you are not alone, and that we need to hear this pure gospel over and over and over...all throughout our lifetimes. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

This message titled, 'I believe that I cannot believe', may be of some comfort and assurance to you:

http://theoldadam.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/i-believe-that-i-cannot-believe.mp3


May the peace of the Lord be with you.

Dear Skye,

Be it that you'd give up, He'll never give you up. I'm sure about that because when I had been so desperate about the "fact" that God seemingly didn't listen to any of my prayers, I gave up praying. There was no hope at all, I was brokenhearted and crushed. But as soon as all hope was gone, Jesus appeared and I was so surprised and happy as I had never been before.

Moreover, you needn't worry if words are missing. God knows our very heart and anything about us. He doesn't want carefully worded prayers because

"Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words." (Rom 8:26)

And what about figuring out how it works - this I do not know till this day. Reason is our greatest enemy, we'll never get it how it works. But it works because it's His work (prayer included).

Wishing you all the best,

Susanne

Susanne,
Thank you so much for your post. It is so encouraging. I keep waiting and waiting, sometimes asking and begging, and sometimes ready to give up. I don't even really know what to ask for. I want to see who he really is and I guess be able to have the relationship he offers. I just can't seem to figure out how it works. Thank you! I will keep trying.

Thank you, Steve, for the link. I listened to most of it, was interrupted, and am about to listen to it again. It is filled with hope, a hope that I want to have for myself.

Keep throwing it out there. Every now and then someone hears it (really hears it!)...and the angels rejoice in Heaven.

How about a study on Song of Songs.

bjl

PS Paul does not say we should treat them as an unbeliever, in fact if you notice he carefully distinguishes between how we treat unbelievers and how we treat those disciplined from the church. (1 Cor 5). Unbelievers we mingle with; disciplined believers we don't.

The Lord says, speaking to Jewish believers about how to treat those who have seriously offended them 'let him be to you as a gentile and a tax collector'. Jews had nothing to do with gentiles and tax collectors; they shunned them. This was how a believer was to treat an offender who refused to listen to the church. Proper church discipline was not formally taught by Jesus (for there was no formal church) but the spirit of it was and no doubt became the basis of later apostolic teaching and practice.

bji


1Cor 5:9-13 (ESV)
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people- not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler-not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

I don't think 'eat' applies simply to the Lord's Supper.

2Cor 2:5-11 (ESV)
Now if anyone has caused pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure-not to put it too severely-to all of you. For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, so you should rather turn to forgive and comfort him, or he may be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. So I beg you to reaffirm your love for him. For this is why I wrote, that I might test you and know whether you are obedient in everything. Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs.

This sorrow implies a distance much greater than simply refusal at the meal.

Such church discipline seems to be an extension of the discipline that Jesus' taught before churches as such existed.

Matt 18:15-17 (ESV)
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Other texts that include keeping a distance from those who are acting contrary to the faith include:

Rom 16:17 (ESV)
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.

Titus 3:10-11 (ESV)
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

Where in the bible does it EVER say to 'shun' a sinning brother or sister? Paul's command NOT to eat with 'such a one' (a brother caught in unrepentant sin) implies NOT to EAT the Lord's Supper (up to excommunication from Mother church for a time). Paul says treat them as an unbeliever...how do we treat unbelievers? We pray for them, long for them and invite them to repent. We do NOT shun and ignore them but in times of severe sin they must be put outside, excluded from the means of grace but NEVER excluded from our lives and prayers.

If a church shuns, it is likely a cult

Where in the bible does it EVER say to 'shun' a sinning brother or sister? Paul's command NOT to eat with 'such a one' (a brother caught in unrepentant sin) implies NOT to EAT the Lord's Supper (up to excommunication from Mother church for a time). Paul says treat them as an unbeliever...how do we treat unbelievers? We pray for them, long for them and invite them to repent. We do NOT shun and ignore them but in times of severe sin they must be put outside, excluded from the means of grace but NEVER excluded from our lives and prayers.

If a church shuns someone, it is very likely a cult

Mitchell

The early christians who were in danger of abusing grace did not realize they were doing so. But they were. We must all, always be on alert - that is not my message, it is the message of the Bible. I am not quite sure where the charge of self-righteousness came form - my whole comment was about God's various ways of acting graciously not my performance.

'What matters is the full knowledge that while we are sinners Christ died and forgave us. Period. '

It is here, Mitchell, in my view you get it wrong. If this were so we may as well throw away much of the NT. My whole point is God's grace is much more than justification. To miss this is to fail to live fully in grace.

John,
Do you honestly think we're all sitting around wondering how we can abuse the grace of God? You're oozing pietism and self-righteousness my friend. None of us knows when and where God is doling out "his discipline on those he loves." What matters is the full knowledge that while we are sinners Christ died and forgave us. Period. It doesn't only work "if" I manage to think or admit to you or the Kevin DeYoung crowd that I think I'm getting better.
If God has transformed you into this super disciple of Christ then all I can say is it is completely God's doing. And if a radically transformed life is the work God does in every Christian then it would do you well to get popcorn and a drink, sit back and enjoy the show. We will catch up with you shortly.
For now though I'll relish in the glorious light of the starring role of God's story - Jesus Christ. I'll be at the foot of the cross till God picks me up and takes me somewhere else.

"GOOD NEWS... GOOD NEWS... GOOD NEWS!!!"

Oh wait... I forgot to read the fine print... never mind. False alarm. The pietists are right. It's only good news on the surface. I knew it was simply too good to be true!

MAN!!!

John,
IT IS CALLED THE GOOD NEWS FOR A REASON. I'M JUST NOT SURE WHERE GOOD NEWS PLAYS INTO YOUR THEOLOGICAL VIEW. AND YOU'RE RIGHT WE ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE... ON MUCH I MIGHT ADD.

"The law guides, directs, commands, all things that are against the interest and rule of sin. It judgeth and condemneth both the things that promote it and the persons that do them; it frightens and terrifies the consciences of those who are under its dominion. But if you shall say unto it [law], “What then shall we do? this tyrant [sin], this enemy, is too hard for us. What aid and assistance against it will you afford unto us? what power will you communicate unto its destruction?” Here the law is utterly silent, or says that nothing of this nature is committed unto it of God: nay, the strength it hath it gives unto sin for the condemnation of the sinner: “The strength of sin is the law.” But the gospel, or the grace of it, is the means and instrument of God for the communication of internal spiritual strength unto believers. By it do they receive supplies of the Spirit or aids of grace for the subduing of sin and the destruction of its dominion…" (John Owen, A Treatise of the Dominion of Sin and Grace)

Danny,

thanks for your reply.

Yes, I think that this illustration must be a good one because it actually exists in (at least two) different versions, and I couldn't get it out of my head. But the "Paid in full." quote was certainly by Tullian, I reckon...

Susanne,

That is a great illustration. I have heard it told similarly (actually, by Tullian, I think):

A judge found himself faced with the judicial obligation of doling out a hefty financial punishment to none other than his own teenage daughter, which she faced for her...well, less than careful driving. After handing down the punishment, he stood up, took off his robe, came down from around the bench, took out his wallet, and paid her penalty.

Indeed, "Paid in full!"

I agree with Paul Zahl's statements and examples concerning grace.
One of his sentences, “Grace is love that seeks you out when you have nothing to give in return.” reminds me of a short story that Nicky Gumbel, a previous attorney and today Anglican priest in London was telling a few years ago.

Once upon a time there were two close friends who were studying law together. After graduating they lost side of each other, but one day they unexpectedly met again. While one of them then was a judge, the other blew the whole thing and found himself standing trial because he had committed a crime. Looking at his old friend, the judge was startled and wondered what to do. In order to deal justly he adjudged his friend to a high penalty that the latter never would have been able to balance.
Immediately after the trial, the judge approached his friend quickly and held something out to him. I t was a check on which was written a certain sum of money – it was his total debt.

“Paid in full.”

Tullian, this is Good News. Thank you.

Pastor
that's a relief because if it was up to me I'd be a real pickle.

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I don't mean to imply that I am any better than anyone else here.

I too have trouble with grace. We all do, at times. We live in a graceless world and we are quite often graceless people.

I need to return to God's grace, daily. I return to my baptism (often, if not daily) and I have God's grace crammed down my throat in His supper, and I need to hear the absolution whenever I can.

Because, at my worst, I just don't want to believe it.

"Loveless license" is where we already are.

Maybe not. There is love.

But the object of that love isn't God and our neighbor (very often)...but 'the self'.

In this world, grace...real grace, the totally unearned, unmerited kind, will always meet up with trouble.

This is evidenced by the comments of many right here on this blog and all other blogs and churches where real grace is proclaimed.

There will always be those unwilling to accept the grace of God.

Not only when it comes to themselves, but even more so when it comes to others.

This is great! I NEED to be reminded of this every day.

Thank you.

Every time I read your blog I get fired up about sharing this news with the world. It's life changing.

I am not against the cry of grace. Far from it, I believe that all is of grace. I rejoice and exult in grace. I live 'under grace', that is within the 'reign of grace'.

But grace has to be seen in a rounded way. For example when God's people sin and don't immediately turn to the gospel of grace to melt their hearts what does God do? He disciplines them. He sends trials and difficulties into their life to bring them to an end of themselves. He does so in grace. He does so in love for every son that the father has he disciplines.

Sometimes, if our sin is of a public shameful kind it may mean excommunication from the church. It may mean being shunned for a time by other believers. In the language of Paul, it may mean being handed over to Satan that we may learn not to blaspheme. This, for his children is an act of grace.

Why does God send these disciplines? It is because even we his people do not always respond as we ought to the 'word of grace'. We do not 'hear' it as we ought. We do turn it into license. Does he then simply say, 'well keep preaching it'? No, not always. He sends his disciplines that we may come to an end of ourselves. These are not law-disciplines, they are grace disciplines; they are not curses but corrections. In time, these severe mercies will turn the heart of the believer (if he is truly a believer) back to the Lord. He will come like the prodigal, perhaps only faintly aware of the father's extravagant love. Just enough to come back. But he will come for the Shepherd has searched for the sheep until he finds it.

Part of the disciplining saving grace of God employed in this are warning verses in Scripture. Reminders not to receive the grace of God in vain. Warnings not to neglect such a great salvation for we shall not escape if we do. Grave warnings that land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.... and that if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries... Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; These, and many other exhortations to godliness are part of how we are kept by grace; they are not antithetical to grace but agents, allies, part of the apparatus of grace.

Titus 2:11-14 (ESV)
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

I love this post. It reminds me of this sad twitter post I read pretty recently: "Often those who shout 'grace' the loudest understand it the least." There's always someone who is against those who shout grace because, just like you said, we don't want to believe it.

[...] What Is Grace? [...]

[...] FROM GOSPEL COALITION Rate this: Share this:FacebookTwitterLike this:LikeBe the first to like this post. SUBSCRIBE! [...]

[...] Answer from Paul Zahl: Grace is a love that has nothing to do with you, the beloved. It has everything and only to do with the lover. Grace is irrational in the sense that it has nothing to do with weights and measures. It has nothing to do with my intrinsic qualities or so-called “gifts” (whatever they may be). It reflects a decision on the part of the giver (the one who loves) in relation to the receiver (the one who is loved) that negates any qualifications the receiver may personally hold…Grace is one-way love. (Read the rest of the answer here) [...]

I think that those who think they understand grace the most should, I don't know, be the most gracious and compassionate? To claim that you know grace and understand it more than others but then to lash out with such ridicule and slander as I have seen on these comments and posts should be the highest point of shame for those involved. Please, love one another.

Tullian, or some blogger out there, please write a post about gracious, humble behavior for commenters of blogs.

God bless.

[...] second story in no way diminishes salvation: the unconditional grace (one-way love of God to us), everlasting faithfulness, and mercy of God. In fact, these things flow out of the second [...]

I'd appreciate a discussion on these things.

How is a person saved by grace without works when salvation isn't done yet and we are required to do "this or that"?
How is it that salvation that requires works causes boasting, but the person who did not want to work - who was lazy - in Mt 25 was thrown into outer darkness?
I do not understand the "without works, lest you boast" part...