Preaching Christ in Every Sermon

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Bryan Chapell
Now those are fair questions of any text, New Testament, Old Testament, what does this tell me about God? What does this tell me about me? And if you ask those questions, you’re going to find that there is a disjuncture, right? There is some problem here, and you cannot fix it. You cannot fix the problem. You’re a fallen creature in a fallen world, and you cannot fix that problem. Who’s got to fix it? God has to fix it.

Matt Smethurst
Welcome back, friends to the everyday pastor a podcast on the nuts and bolts of ministry. I’m Matt Smithers, the pastor in Richmond, Virginia, and I’m joined by my trusty co host

Ligon Duncan
LIG Duncan at reformed Theological Seminary, and

Matt Smethurst
we are gathering virtually for this episode with our mutual friend Brian Chappell. Many of you will be familiar with Brian’s ministry. He was the longtime president of covenant Theological Seminary in Missouri, pastor of grace Presbyterian Church in Illinois, and he is something of a Jedi Master in reputation among many preachers today, specifically when it comes to proclaiming Christ in all of Scripture. Many pastors, myself included, have benefited in particular from one of Brian’s books, Christ centered preaching redeeming an expository sermon, which I think is in its third edition now, and Brian also, in addition to teaching, preaching and other things, serves as the leader of the Administrative Committee of the PCA legal is that the most official title

Ligon Duncan
that’s, yeah, he’s sort of the chief administrative officer, but his official title is stated clerk of The General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in America and in Presbyterianism, the principal Clark used to be called in Scotland or the stated clerk is a very important officer for just holding the congregation the denomination together. Because we don’t have popes or bishops. We’re elder led, and you need somebody that helps everybody work together, and Brian, Brian fulfills that role for us.

Bryan Chapell
I’m going to take ligand on the road with me so he can explain that to everybody,

Matt Smethurst
starting with your wife, right. Here’s what I do, honey, Brian, thank you for being with us in the next couple of episodes, LIG and I are going to be talking with each other about advice for sermon prep and then sermon delivery, but we wanted to bring you on the podcast to just first, help set the stage for our listeners, primarily pastors, to help them think about what it means to preach not just the Bible, though, of course, we want to do that, but in preaching the Bible to be sure that we’re proclaiming God’s grace, God’s gospel, and ultimately, the person and work of his son. So let’s just start there, Brian with that basic assumption. So before we we discuss how to preach Christ from all of Scripture. Why is it important that we do so every single Sunday?

Bryan Chapell
Thanks, Matt. Well, the most essential truth is, what did Jesus say? Apart from me, you can do nothing. So if we’re asking people to respond to the Lord, to obey His Word, they require him, and they require the work of Christ in their lives. So to to preach a Christ less sermon is in some way missing the point. Now I’m not saying you may not be able to give instruction and facts and imperatives, but to tell people obey Christ without Christ is to call them to do what they cannot do. And while we mean to be helpful, we’re actually being cruel, because we’re asking people to respond without the very One who enables them to respond. So first reason is people almost always look at Christ centered preaching. They debate interpretation. I usually try to push them into application and try to say, what’s the past? I know just, not just the scholarly exegetical reason. We will debate that. Of course, there’s always a redemptive context. From Genesis 315, forward, God is saying, I’m going to send a redeemer, and you’re not him. I mean, that’s the message from the beginning. You’re going to need him. So there’s always that redemptive context. So we will be interpreting correctly as we keep the context in view. That’s, you know, every Bible expositor wants to remember the context. You know, that’s needed, but I always want to keep pushing people on to say, Yeah, great. This was an accurate message. Now I wanted to be a pastoral message. How are people going to do what you just asked them to do if you haven’t given them the Christ of the scriptures?

Matt Smethurst
Yeah, you already mentioned application in your in your book Christ centered preaching, you say at one point that a good sermon must have at least three things, unity. Purpose and application. Can you just give us a brief thumbnail sketch of what you mean by each of those categories?

Bryan Chapell
Well, Unity just means there’s a subject that coheres right. Otherwise people can’t understand it. And my little analogy is, you, you it’s far easier to catch a baseball than a handful of sand, even if they weigh about the same. So if all you’re just throwing at people is dispersed ideas, that’s not going to go well. People will supply a theme if you don’t, because they need it to understand. So unified purpose is saying, Why did God do this? Not just what’s here? Why is it here? Because ultimately, it is not given just to make you self dependent. It is given to make you dependent upon the grace of God, the One who is there to give you hope in his work more than yours. And therefore, because he has given you the ability to work by his Christ power in you, then there’s something to do. So there’s application. So we don’t just say, as Presbyterians, I receive this as information. No, I receive this for application that I might glorify My Lord by how I live now based upon His Word. So it’s not a sermon, if you forget any one of those, right? It’s kind of unity purpose and application, which are ultimately freeing, not constraints. When you see God’s people responding as you enable them to by proclaiming His word.

Matt Smethurst
Yeah, I’ve, I’ve heard it described as, as you know, we don’t just want to preach generally theistic sermons, even if everything we’re saying is true. We want to preach sermons that would get us kicked out of Jewish synagogues because we are proclaiming the Messiah or, or perhaps we could think about it, you know, we want sermons that only make sense if Jesus died and rose again. Well

Bryan Chapell
said. You know, that’s famous, yeah, Legion and I are both going to another famous J Adams quote, right? If you, if you preach a sermon that would be acceptable in a synagogue or a mask or a mosque or a mosque, there is something radically wrong with it. You know, Christ centered preaching, Christian preaching is fundamentally Christ centered. And if Christ is not in it, there’s something wrong with saying that your exegesis is wrong, but your understanding of how God works in people’s lives is wrong. So if you preach a sermon that would be acceptable in a synagogue or a mosque, J Adams said, There’s something radically wrong with it.

Matt Smethurst
And LIG you know, having served as senior minister at first press Jackson for nearly 20 years, did your commitment to preaching Christ, making him the hero of your sermons, is that, is that a commitment that was there at the beginning? Is it something you think you you grew in?

Ligon Duncan
But I mean, honestly, I go back and listen to some of my early sermons and think my people deserve their money back. I, you know, you grow in this. And I, you know, I came, I came to Simmon, Brian and I studied under the same man who taught preaching, and I learned a ton, and I still use a ton from what I learned from Dr Rayburn. But and I grew up in a Bible, believing church, in a Bible, believing home. But it has taken me a long time to know the Bible well enough to be able to preach better. And I definitely think in my early preaching, I was excited about what I was learning from the Bible, but because it was so new, so fresh, being able to focus in a to what Brian just said, having unity to the sermon. I look back to a lot of my early sermons, Matt and I was preaching three sermons. If I had three points each of those, it wasn’t that they were incoherent, but it was they were three separate sermons, and I I didn’t have a sabbatical in 2000 until 2009 and on that sabbatical, I had all these Grand Designs about what I was going to do. I was going to write articles and books and this and that and the other. And the main thing that God did during during that sabbatical was convict me of sin and and then secondly, help me think about what I was doing in my preaching. And when I came back after the sabbatical, a lot of my people said, your preaching is different, and they meant that as a compliment that you know, like you’re finally learning how to preach, you know. And I’ve been, I’ve been preaching at the church for baseball. I don’t have any idea exactly, but the one of the things was, I started thinking, what is Derek Thomas doing? And I tried, because Derek’s preaching is different from mine. And and I, as I thought about I said, you know, the one thing about Derek is his sermon is always about one thing. I mean, you know what the sermon is about? And I started thinking about my preaching, and and, and I looked at the outlines, and everything that I was saying was true, but I was teaching a lot more than I was preaching one idea. And then, because of that, I was not relieved. Relentless in my application, in the way that Brian was just talking about. I both illustration and application came to me slow. That was it was not easy, and part of it, Matt’s just living some life, right? You know, I learned so much of what I learned about application and illustration just from talking to people in my congregation and hearing what they were going through in life that really helped me preach better, because Dr Rayburn, who taught Brian and me, he used to say, Now, men, one day, I’m going to be in the back of your church, and I’m going to be listening to you, and I’m going to be thinking of one question, what do you want me to do? And and that’s, that’s his application question. He didn’t mean that in a worksy, righteous way. He meant, I want to know, is this sermon to make me want to trust Christ more? Is that what I’m supposed to do out of this? Or, you know what? What’s, what’s the takeaway from this going to be? And I had to grow in that area over time, and it’s listening to good preachers preach thinking about what you’re doing, getting familiar enough with the text of Scripture. You want to continue to be excited about the text of Scripture, but you also want to know its place in the larger redemptive story. And then, how am I going to preach this to Christians? You know, I want to, I want to preach evangelistically, but I also want to preach an edifying message to believers. How am I going to do that? And I so yet, definitely I felt like 15 years in at first press I was finally preaching Christian sermons. So one thing I would just say to young guys is be patient with yourself. You’re not You’re not going to arrive the first year or the second year or the third year of your preaching. It’s a cumulative thing, and part of it is just living some life. So be patient with yourself, but then don’t ever, ever stop trying to get better at your preaching. You know, it’s something all of us we ought to be relentlessly pursuing, improving what we do in the pulpit for God’s glory and for the people of God.

Matt Smethurst
Yeah, Brian, I want to ask you about your framework, specifically falling condition, redemptive solution. One little anecdote, though, that came to mind when LIG was sharing that is from our late brother, Tim Keller, who’s known for preaching Christ from all of Scripture. I had the privilege for over a year working on a book project Tim Keller on the Christian life that comes out in the spring, the first chapter of which is one hero, Jesus Christ in all scripture. So I did a bit of a deep dive into how he came to read and preach the Bible that way. And of course, Edmund Clowney famously was a big influence. But also Alec Mateer Keller shares a story of of in the summer of 1972 at RC Sproul Ligonier Valley Study Center. Alec Mateer had had an Old Testament scholar had come over to visit with Sproul, and was talking with the students there. And there was a Q and A session in which someone basically asked How Old Testament Israelites and New Testament Christians relate. And at that point, for Keller, the Old Testament was confusing. It was off putting. He didn’t know how to how to fit the pieces together. And he said that that mattress response was to ask the group to imagine how the Israelites under Moses would have given their testimony. And he suggested that it would have sounded something like this, and I’ll read it. Quote, we were in a foreign land in bondage under the sentence of death, but our mediator, the one who stands between us and God, came to us with the promise of deliverance. We trusted in the promises of God took shelter under the blood of the Lamb, and he led us out. Now we are on our way to the Promised Land. We’re not there yet, of course, but we have the law to guide us, and through blood sacrifice, we also have his presence in our midst, so he will stay with us until we get to our true country, our everlasting home. And Keller says that that that conclusion, and matthij was saying, a Christian today could could say almost the same thing, word for word. And that conclusion left Keller thunderstruck, because he realized that not only were the Israelites saved by grace, not works all along, but that God’s salvation has been by costly atonement all along. And so I think that as we have this conversation, we just need to be aware that there are probably some pastors and preachers listening in who are all for preaching Christ from all of scripture in theory, but when it comes to doing so from the Old Testament, it can just feel a little intimidating, perhaps because they’ve never put those pieces together or seen it modeled well. So Brian, how would you encourage a pastor who’s wanting to grow in this skill of. Seeing Christ in all of Scripture and proclaiming His glory from Genesis to Revelation

Bryan Chapell
in three easy lessons.

Matt Smethurst
Give it to us, just don’t give it to us in a handful of sand.

Bryan Chapell
So Lincoln and I only teach this in semester long courses. But honestly, I knew you would ask Matt, so I thought, how would I respond? You know, I feel like I might be in some sort of a detective movie, saying, now we can do this the hard way, or we can do this the easy way, all right. Now, both are legitimate ways. And one way is you listen to Tim Keller and say, I’m going to do what Tim did. And you just feel overwhelmed, because it just so amazing. But he had some kind of simple rules, and one of them you’ve already referenced in the way that you introduced this topic, in which Tim would require His disciples to say at the end of the sermon, who’s the hero of the text? It’s just asking the hero question. Is it the human hero that gets or did God rescue in some way? Because Tim’s little line was, no matter what the text, there’s always a subtext, and the subtext is, God is coming to the rescue. Not you, not me, not our works. God is coming to the rescue, and so not to do the semester long course. But how do you see that? I think it is going to be simple. I’m just going to say, you know, you put on your gospel glasses, and gospel classes are just two very simple questions. One, what does this text tell me about God? That’s one lens. What does this text tell me about God?

Matt Smethurst
You can guess this is a great commercial, by the way. Listeners to tune in on YouTube, because Brian is holding his glasses and pointing to a particular lens as he gives this illustration.

Bryan Chapell
What does this text tell me about God, and these are foster No, they’re not tell me about God. But the other is, what does this text tell me about me, about humanity, if now those are fair questions of any text, New Testament, Old Testament. What does this tell me about God? What does this tell me about me? And if you ask those questions, you’re going to find that there, there is a disjuncture, right? There is some problem here, and you cannot fix it. You cannot fix the problem. You’re a fallen creature in a fallen world, and you cannot fix that problem. Who’s got to fix it? God has to fix it. And no matter where you are in Scripture, if you’ll put on those gospel glasses and you say, What’s this telling me about God, what’s this? Tell me about me. About Me. Now you’re going to get instruction, and you’re going to find out lots of facts about the covenants, and you’re going to find but ultimately, you’re going to say God is holy, and I’m not, and I can’t fix that problem. So what are the scriptures doing? They’re pointing me to the hero. They’re pointing me to the fixer. Now there’s lots of ways that happens, and that’s you know, why we have seminaries, but ultimately, I will say anybody can do it anywhere, just put on their gospel glasses. What does this tell me about God? What does this tell me about me? It’s telling me I’m gonna need a redeemer, and I’m not him. What I think people do mistakenly with with Christ centered preaching, is they try to make Jesus magically appear in them, and they’re kind of ready to debate LIG and me, right? Oh, no, Christ isn’t there. And we well, okay, but what’s it pointing to? Is it pointing to you? Is it just saying you’re the hero? You can fix this. Ultimately, every text is saying God has to be rescuing his people, and the ultimate rescue. Now we make the movement the ultimate rescue, the ultimate display of that grace, of that deliverance, is in Christ. So when God provides manna in the wilderness, when he gives food to the hungry, strength to the to the weak, rest to the weary. Always, God is supplying what we cannot so he’s not in every verse mentioning Jesus. No, he’s not, but he is in every text showing his nature and ours, which culminates in the work of Jesus. So I always have to deal with people who want to tell me that Jesus isn’t in that verse, and I have to say, well, you’re actually right, but that text is pointing to something other than your ability to merit God’s salvation, so you’re still going to need Jesus at the end of this text, even if he’s not mentioned in The text.

Matt Smethurst
Well, even Paul, when he says in First Corinthians, two, two, for I resolve to know nothing except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. What’s interesting is he was operating not with the New Testament, but with the Old Testament Scriptures. And from the Old Testament scriptures, he was able to say, I know nothing except Jesus Christ. So again, it’s not the bringing the rabbit out. Of the hat. It’s not a kind of spiritualized version of Where’s Waldo, but it’s it’s following the themes that unfold across the storyline of scripture in persons, events and institutions as we see them. Anticipate the Lord Jesus, Brian, keep talking though, and unpack what you just said a little more. Give us those two categories with your very helpful language of fallen condition and redemptive solution. What do you mean?

Bryan Chapell
So when you’re when you look at the text and you say, what is this text telling me about me or humanity’s condition, what you’re remembering is that from Genesis 315, forward, you are dealing in a fallen world, and you are a fallen creature in a fallen world. So somehow this text, by its instruction, by its condemnation, by its offer of reward to those who depend upon God, is is telling us of our fallen condition. And if we are fallen creatures in a fallen condition, then, then we can’t fix that fallenness by ourselves, right? We instead require a redeemer, and that is the redemptive solution. So what did Genesis 315 say, after the fall, after the corruption entered the world, the Lord said to Satan, the tempter, I’m going to put enmity, antagonism between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed. What’s going to happen? You’re going to strike his heel. You’re going to hurt him. He’s going to crush your head. And from that very moment, God is saying, I will send the Redeemer, and there’s going to be all kinds of opposition, but I will send the Redeemer because you will need him, and because you will need him, you are not him. So that means we don’t fix the problem by ourselves. So fallen condition is not just sin. That’s sometimes made a mistake, that people every sermon is about a sin. No, every sermon is about our fallen condition, which can be living in a broken world. Grief isn’t a sin. It is consequence believing, but it’s how is God providing a redemptive solution to our fallen condition? It includes sin, but it’s not sin only it’s whatever corruption, brokenness, inability we have to rescue ourselves, is in evidence in this text, so that we then say God must be providing the solution. And virtually always, if you look at the context, God is providing the solution to whatever that dilemma is.

Matt Smethurst
So you’re you’re rightly warning us, and you’ve warned a generation I think about the danger of preaching the text without preaching Christ. There are some critics you’ve heard that might, might accuse you and others of preaching Christ without preaching the text, and you’re saying no, that that’s not the that’s not what we’re after. We want to preach the text as Christians who ultimately get to Christ, which leads, I’d like to actually, for both of you to answer this legal we’ll start. I’ll start with you. How can we proclaim gospel grace and still apply the force of God’s moral demands? Because I do think some preachers in in you know, might listen to a Tim Keller or read a Brian chapel and wrongly assume that they just need to tell people Jesus did it all, and then close in prayer. So how do we also preach like the New Testament authors who didn’t operate as if the indicatives would just take care of everything, but also leaned into those imperatives

Ligon Duncan
well, and let me just say, Brian’s written a whole book on this, so holiness by grace is about this. So he’s, he’s going to have a lot to say to help you. I think one, one thing is remembering the biblical story, if, if you understand that the the law, was given to God’s redeemed people, you know, as you beautifully read from, from Alec Mateer, you know, at, at Sinai, and yet God’s people did not follow that law. In the most fundamental ways, it’s not like, no, they made a little mistake under, you know, point 132, a it’s like they worshiped other gods. I mean, it’s all over the Old Testament. You know, half of the ministry the Prophet says, Please, please, please, just worship the one true God. Don’t worship all these other gods. And so in very fundamental ways, they violated the law at its very outset. You shall have no other gods before me. And it is interesting that the prophets, when they, when they bring the charge of God against them for their sin, do not say and the answer is for you to straighten up and fly right. They do not say that. They say you, they do say you need to repent, but they also say God, just as Brian has just been saying, God is going to have to do something about this, you’re not going to be able to fix this. God is going to have to do something about this. And that’s why the New Testament is so so clear. That your your answer is not just keep the law hard enough and you’ll get there. No, you need a Redeemer that fulfill that law positively and negatively, and you need to be in him, and so all your hope and trust are in Him, and then he will help you become what God intended you to be in the first place. You know it will never be disconnected from faith and trust in Him. You can only become what you’re supposed to be as you’re resting and trusting in Him alone for salvation as he’s offered in the Gospel. Yeah. And so the the whole New Testament approach to imperatives is just, it’s, it’s, it’s just tightened up next to the doctrine of union with Christ, so that we’re never trusting in ourselves. So it reorients the way that the New Testament gets at those imperatives, and it it sets you free from the condemnation of those imperatives to for to those imperatives, finally, to become your friend again, you know, because you you now, there is a gratitude for what God has done for you in saving you. There is a sense of God’s love for you. He genuinely cares for you, though you have messed up royally. He cares for you, and He wants you to be like his son and and so now those imperatives become your friend while you’re trying to think, and how do I walk? How do I walk with God in this I do think that’s where that big story, that’s when Brian says, I don’t have to have one verse where I pull Jesus out of that verse magically. That that frames everything in the Bible, that story of failure, and then God providing the redemption. And that just has to be in the background of everything that we think, no matter where we are in the Bible. So that’s, that’s one way, Matt, that I would get at it, and I

Bryan Chapell
just rejoice to hear him say it, Matt,

Matt Smethurst
you, you taught him well way back in the day, amen, you

Bryan Chapell
know, for for both ligand and me, I think we were highly commended in our youth for our preaching, and then wilted under our own preaching because we were saying, just do better. Just do better. And you know, how much better is enough? Fine with God. And I, Matt, you said it so well you set us up because you’ve kind of moved us away from us. Almost always the interpretation question, how do you get Christ to come out of the hat? And no, that’s not what we’re doing. And you’re moving us to how do we live for Christ, right? And if you believe the law is an expression of God’s character and care, then it’s not antithetical to grace, right? It’s the good and safe path. Here’s the good. I’m not caring for you if I don’t tell you the good and safe path. But now the question happens, what if you get off the path? Now, what’s your hope and how long you gotta stay on the path to be good with God? Well, eternally, and you’re not going to stay on that path eternally. So, I mean, if you really want to scare Christians, right? Quote Luke 1710, right? Where Jesus said, When you have done all that you should do, you are still an unworthy servant. Wait, wait, I did all I should do. Yes, but what you do is not what gets you a seat at the master’s table, right? It’s his mercy. So we, we want to know what the law requires, because that’s good and safe for God’s people, but we walk that path. Ligand said it so well in gratitude and love, not not in the sense of, if I stay on this path long enough, then I have hope, and if I fall off the path, there is no hope. No, I’m on this path because the one who loved me gave me a good and safe path, and he told me what would make my heart want to be on that path, right? Jesus said John, 1415, if you love me, yeah, you’ll keep my commands. Well, what will make us love him? We love because he first love us, Amen and and it’s that, you know, so often people think because we talk about grace and indicatives, we are either lawless or unconcerned. And we actually want to say, I’m very concerned that people know the good and safe path that’s actually gracious, yeah? But I want them to be motivated by love and gratitude, yeah, not simply by fear and guilt, which will ultimately crush them on the path.

Ligon Duncan
Amen. And by the way, Matt there, the Old Testament supplies you so much material for this. I I’ve, I’ve had occasion to preach through Psalm 119 as a younger man, I was afraid of Psalm 119 I just thought, Oh, that is going to be so repetitive that. And I eventually got to the point where I did a 22 week series on Psalm 119 but one thing that strikes me is, for 175 verses, the psalmist is saying, Man, I love my Bible. Bibles the best book there ever was, Word of God’s greatest thing in the world. And then you get to Psalm 119, verse, 176 and it says, I’ve gone astray. Seek your servant. So for 175 verses, the Bible is. Awesome, and he hits the last verse and I didn’t follow the Bible. And his answer is, I gotta follow the Bible harder. No, it’s seek Your servant, come get me, Lord, I need you to come get me, just like the shepherd goes out to find the lost sheep, I need you to come get me, because if you don’t bring me home, I won’t come home. Now, does that mean that he doesn’t value the Bible? No, he loves the Bible. Does that mean he doesn’t care about the imperatives? No, he cares about the imperative. It’s just that he recognizes, if this is up to me, I’m not coming home. And so I need the Lord to come seek me, and I’ll never stop needing the Lord to come seek Me. And so you’ve got, you’ve got all this. There’s so much good material to help you textually on this help the people of God, and

Matt Smethurst
even a verse like that. You know, it’s not a messianic text. And yet we can’t preach the words, seek Your servant without saying. How can we not be reminded of the one who came to seek and say, Amen, that which was the lost. Amen The 99 to find the one. I mean, it’s just, it’s just begging to be

Bryan Chapell
you ought to teach

Matt Smethurst
Brian one. One other thing listeners may not be aware of, that, that you’ve thought a lot about and even written a book about, is, is illustrations. You the book you wrote was using illustrations to preach with power. This is a related topic to Christ centered preaching. It’s not exactly the same thing, but we, I wanted to ask you, how can we as preachers come up with illustration ideas and deploy illustrations more effectively, because I do think in our kind of TGC circles, we rightly value exposition, getting the text right, but we’re all we’re often not preaching cinematically. That is, that is with vivid word pictures in a way that helps reach listeners hearts by the power of the Spirit. So what’s some what’s some basic advice in terms of illustrating the text?

Bryan Chapell
So, in a sense, you’re turning the subject, Matt, but I’m it’s actually the same subject, because in my mind, the best illustrations illustrate the application. I think when we’re in seminary, we learn, you know, there are these three elements of every sermon, there’s exposition, illustration, application, there’s red paint, blue paint, green paint, and then the more you know you paint, the more you find out these colors blend and they support one another. And I think when I was in seminary, and I was taught, you know, there’s explanation, then illustration. And always, you’re trying to illustrate a concept of the explanation. Now, that’s good, and that’s right, but it leads you to a lot of, you know, illustrations about the frog and the kettle and, you know, you know, kind of irrelevant things to people’s lives. It may be interesting. I usually try to say to people listen. Will you tell me in your sermon, who needs to hear what you just said? Who needs to hear and I said going through the WHO door, which I know sounds a lot like Dr Zeus, but who needs to hear what you just said? Because if you will think in who terms, you’ll begin to think in the terms of the people you’re talking to. And so much of this, I mean, ligand said it so good a minute ago, it becomes part of your pastoral interaction. It’s not just where do I go to a book to find an illustration about this concept? No who in my church needs to hear this. Now, I’m not going to tell their story, but I will try to find examples or stories that relate to their experience and and this in many ways, if I can almost draw it, you think explanation, illustration, application. And we typically are trained to think that illustration is about the exposition. And I try to say to guys, you will, you will advance so much further. You will feel that illustrations are not just silly little tales for silly little people. If you’ll make the illustration about the application, amen, tell me who needs to hear this and what difference it will make in their lives, or people whose lives it has made a difference. First of all, it’d be easier to find your illustrations right because, because you’re going to be thinking in real terms, and you’re going to be refining so much more what your concept is when you think about, where does it apply in life, when you’re just thinking about the problem is sin, it’s hard to find an illustration, right? But if you’re saying, you know, the problem is sometimes, right after your greatest spiritual high, you face your greatest challenge and failure, what then and now, you’re thinking, Oh, I can think of all kinds of my friends and your friends and people right after the great high was the greatest temptation and failure. Now, what hope does God offer? So the more you will go in through the WHO door, who needs to hear it, the more easy illustrations will come, but also more powerful your applications. Become, because you’ll be talking about real people, real circumstances, and people say, Oh, that makes a difference. That makes a difference in my life. Yeah, and, and you’ll feel that the illustration is not just a throwaway story. It’s, it’s, it’s where people, oh, I can see where this makes a difference, and that helps them, and you’ll be helped by helping them.

Ligon Duncan
That’s so good. I totally I totally agree, and as I’ve grown, exactly what Brian said has helped me. So you’re in a passage like Ephesians 314, to 19, where Paul really wants Christians to feel the love of God in Christ, to experience the love of God in Christ. And as a pastor, I do premarital counseling. And over and over and over again, I would encounter godly, sharp, outstanding young Christian women who had a hard time feeling their fiance’s love for them, not because their fiance was doing a bad job of it, but because of experiences in their past, often in their families, often with their fathers. And then suddenly you realize, okay, wow, Paul has encountered a lot of Christians that have a hard time feeling the love of God for them, and then so then I can tell that story about these godly young women who’ve struggled with feeling the love of their fiance because they haven’t felt the love of their father. And Paul saying, Christian, I really want you to know the love of your father for you in Christ, and suddenly you’re doing exactly what Brian was just saying. You’re not You’re not illustrating the exposition, you’re illustrating the application. And let me say, for my doctrinal and expositional friends out there who think that that means that we’re downplaying the doctrine the exposition, no, no, they will think more highly of the doctrine and the exposition. They’ll go, wow, I get that. I get now why it was so important for me to learn that truth or to get that point out of that passage, because that has a definite application in my life. And so part of it, Matt was, some of it was just growing up, right? Living a little bit of life, talking to people, seeing what they were dealing with, and then realizing, wow, that’s why that said in the Bible, the very things that they’re wrestling with. That’s why God talked about that in the Bible and and I think the Bible is unbelievably illustrative of our hearts. I you know, you’ve heard people say, I believe the Bible, not only because I read it because but because it reads me. And you do find that. And so when you have those illustrations from pastoral experience, then everybody in the congregation can have an aha moment, wow. That’s why it was important for me to understand that truth that was being expounded in the passage, because God wants to do this in me, wants it wants this to be done in my heart, in my life, and so that’s that, yeah, that that’s how I’ve gotten less bad illustration over time.

Matt Smethurst
And I think it’s helpful to remind preachers, and this should come as a relief, that illustrations don’t have to be long, elaborate stories. They can be just passing word pictures. I mean, Spurgeon was a master at this. The Puritans were masters at this. Jonathan Edwards, you know, he could have just said that your good works can’t save you, and that would have been true, but he at one point said, you know, your good works can no more save you from God’s wrath than a spider web can stop a falling rock. Well, that’s a very elementary word picture, but it’s connecting with our concrete experience in a way that that sticks with us. Brian, I’m helped. I’ve never thought about how illustration and application mutually reinforce one another in the way you’re talking about that that’s really helpful. And regarding application, which we’ve already talked about a bit you’ve you’ve written about different angles of application. So what, where? Why? How can you just kind of briefly, because I think sometimes a preacher can feel overwhelmed by wondering, well, I mean, I have, I have people who are doing well spiritually. I have sufferers. I have old people, young people, new like, what are some helpful tools for the preacher as he thinks about how to apply effectively?

Bryan Chapell
Well, you’re, you’re kind to kind of lay it out that way, because I, I think application is aided, not just by having the preacher kind of think, well, what are five things I can tell people to do now? And you just see people’s heads go down. Oh, no. Five. Five more things you know, that I got to do this week. You know, to back up to where we just were to say, All right, here’s this amazing biblical truth which you’ve expounded, which you’ve said. This text teaches with the authority of the Word of God. I tell you, this is true now, now you have to ask, all right, what do I do? And that’s where kind of everybody settles for. What do I do about? Got it and and hopefully that sort of instructional specificity, I call it, some specific instruction, is at least hinted at in the word or, or can, by good and necessary implication, be directed from the this is what the Word of God says. But I think that’s where most people stop at some form of Go thou and do likewise. You know, that’s kind of the end of the application. I usually say, now that you’ve said what to do, tell me where, tell me where in my life. This will make a difference. So this is not just a simple step. You figure it out. You know, if even the preacher can’t figure out where the application is, how are the people going to figure it out? So to say, not only what to do, where in life now the what is supplied by the text, the where ligand was just beautifully saying it, the where is supplied by pastoral experience with my my relationship with my people. I know where they’re struggling, hurting, rejoicing, they’re false idols. I begin to say, Where in life. Does this make a difference. And if you can’t think of where you’ve already heard me say, I say, if you don’t know the where question going through the WHO door, who needs to hear it, you’ll start to think of where it flies. Then. Now the next two questions. Application is what to do, where to do? Then, why? What’s the motivation? Old preacher’s rubric, right things for the wrong reasons are wrong. The right things for the wrong reasons are wrong. Old Testament Israel offering sacrifices to God. And he’s saying, that’s a stench in my Well, why is it a tension God they’re offering? He told them to they’re doing it. Well, they’re trying to bribe him. That’s why. What’s the motivation? I mean, how many people are you know, during their Christian disciplines because they’re trying to bribe the ogre in the sky to be nice to them, in which case it’s abhorrent to God that they’re reading their Bibles and praying. No, it’s a good thing being used with the wrong motivation. So lignin has already said it beautifully. What is the right motivation? You must love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, this is the first and the greatest commandment. Why? Because all the others are built upon it. And so if, if I have in this message said gospel glasses, here’s who God is, here’s who you are, he has to rescue you, then the response is love and Thanksgiving and gratitude. And if there is no basis for love and gratitude in the message, the motivation is going to stink. Yeah. I mean, people, people may serve the ogre in the sky, but they are not serving the God of heaven when they do so, yeah. And so final question is, how? Hardest question of all right, Pastor, I’d love to stop drinking real I really would tell me how. Well I’m not going to tell you, no Pastor, really how. Well I’m not going to tell you we would never do it at the kitchen table. And we do it over and over and over again in our sermons, we tell people to do impossible things, and then don’t tell them how. So after motivation comes enablement. And you know where I’m going with this, Matt, apart from Christ, you can do nothing. And ligand has already said it’s union with Christ. It’s recognizing Number one, he has given me strength, that is the gospel. People say Christ centered preaching, or redemptive preaching, is just, well, you can’t do it. So, you know, pray for No, that’s the opposite of what I teach. Right? Greater is he that’s in you than he that’s in the world. I’m united to Christ, and because I am the crucified, Risen Lord now lives in me and gives me spiritual strength. So number one is believing that change is possible because the gospel is real, and I believe that. But number two is having such a love for Christ that it is outweighing love for the world, so that motivation and enablement come together. Ultimately, we only do what we love most to do that’s what we will do. So what? What’s the highest goal of any sermon? I don’t want to be simplistic about this, but I mean to be true. I want you to love Christ more than you love the world, because it’s the love for Christ that will drive out the love for the world that actually gives sin its power. We do not sin because it’s more powerful than we are. We are not slaves. Sin does no longer have dominion over us. We sin because we love it. And what will drive out love for sin, love for Christ and preaching that says, here’s the holiness of God and here’s the sinfulness of you, and God has made a way out by the sacrifice of himself, is supposed to ignite such love in you, that you act upon the power that you do have, believe you have, the power that’s the gospel, and then act upon it out of love for Christ, which is driving out the love for the world. Now, all of that is application. It is what to do, where to do, why to do it, and ultimately, how, which is through union with Christ. Christ that we have to remind people of as we preach

Matt Smethurst
and like I’m in a moment going to ask you if you have any more thoughts about gospel centered application. It just occurs to me that Jesus is Prophet, Priest and King. We’re not only presenting him as priest. We’re not only saying he died in our place for our sins, though that is that must be pronounced, that must be emphasized in every message. But he’s also a prophet, the the ultimate Prophet, who speaks God’s word to us. Hebrews one right who, who is come as God’s climactic revelation, and he is our king. And so it’s good news that we get to follow his marching orders, that we get to operate on his terms, because we are under qualified to be in charge of an existence. We did not design Jesus designed us, and therefore he knows what’s going to most tend to our good Lake. What would you add in regard to Christ

Ligon Duncan
centered out? I would just say that your congregation will listen to your application when they know that you are sympathetic to them and that you want to encourage them. You’re not just trying to beat them over the head. You’re actually trying to help them, and the more they sense that you are sympathetic to them, and knowing something of their experience, the more readily they will. Will take that application and take it seriously again. You have to be patient with yourself, because you have to grow. You have to live some life. And I, you know one, one reason I wasn’t good at this at 30 and I’m better at it at 64 is I’ve lived some life, and I’ve failed myself, and I’ve seen God pick me up when I couldn’t pick myself up, and I’ve had to think through now, what? What did God have to do to get me there and then, and then, how did God help me see things that I had read and studied and preached to other people 54 times but hadn’t taken into my own heart? What? What was the process there? I can be more helpful to people now, right? Because, because of my own because of my own failures, and because of God’s grace to me, I can be more helpful and sympathetic to them. So that’s that’s one thing, and then I our mutual friend Mark dever likes to say older ministers know that they can get more out of their congregation from encouragement than they can from exhortations. And so just remembering, sometimes all you need is just a gentle nudge. You feel like you need to come in with a sledgehammer. Sometimes all you need is that gentle nudge of encouragement. It’s just like being a youth. If you’re working with young people, do not think that you are going to get a return in three months on what you’re doing. It’s going to be 15 years before you see if your youth ministry had any effect whatsoever on those young people. And pastors have to have a long term view of that. And I think the as a younger man, you want to see a more instant return on on your preaching in a congregation. And it’s, I think you need to just think, drip, drip, drip. You know, gospel, gospel, gospel, gospel, love em, love em, love em, love em, encourage em, encourage em, understand em, understand em, understand em. And then let it happen over time, and it’ll begin to have an impact on their heart and the spirit. Will use it in many people’s lives. That’s the only thing I would say to supplement everything. I mean, Ryan said was just solid gold,

Matt Smethurst
yeah, which of us looks back on our lives at the people who made the biggest positive difference in our lives and says, Well, it’s the people who excelled at scolding me no. It’s the people who who encouraged us even when there was very little to encourage, yeah, but they, they, they saw what we could become in Christ and helped us along the way, Brian, as we conclude just any final word of advice or commendation to preachers wanting to be faithful, to proclaim Christ from all of Scripture. Matt,

Bryan Chapell
when you started, I asked you to give me just a moment to print something from another former student who’s also teaching in another part of the world, in Kenya. And he wrote, I just got this minutes before we begin this this time. And he writes, during a lesson in Kenya on Wednesday, one of the pastors interrupted and said, Dr Walt, we need to stop we need to stop class and repent. We have not been preaching Christ. We have been telling people that the only way to get God’s blessings is to do good. We need to repent and preach Christ. I started to talk again, and another student said, No, he means it right now. We need to repent right now. So we ended with an extended time of confession, repentance and. Commitment to preach Christ from all scripture. The same thing happened the next day with a different audience, and the next day as though I were John the Baptist, but I’m not John the Baptist. All I know to do is point people to Christ. It was beautiful and it was powerful. So

Ligon Duncan
good, so good. Brian, praise God for students who do

Bryan Chapell
it better than I did, and just hear their their stories of Christ centered preaching that changes people’s hearts. Amen.

Matt Smethurst
What a good note to end on. Thanks for being with us, Brian, and thank you for tuning in to this episode of the everyday pastor. We hope it’s been helpful to you. Please Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and pass it along to a friend, particularly a pastor who might want to grow in preaching Christ in all of Scripture, because we want to help that brother find fresh joy in the work of ministry.