Authority with Integrity: How Jesus Guides Our Leading

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Collin Hansen
You might hate it, but you can’t live without it. And I’m talking about authority. If that word strikes fear in your heart, I understand many of us have been hurt by authorities were raised to trust ourselves and to question authorities. Yes, authorities under God will always be imperfect and yet, to live without authorities is truly terrifying. And thankfully, not something that most of us have ever really experienced. Authority is necessary even good if you have authority in your family, your workplace, your community or your church, then it comes from God under his own authority, and he intends for you to use his authority to bring life to others. Perhaps if we saw more of this good and godly authority from our leaders, and if we leaders were better at submitting and sharing authority, than we might not be caught in this crisis of authority. Yet here we are, with each day bringing news of foreign leaders and fervent protests against authority. Jonathan Leeman shows us the good, bad and ugly in his new book authority, how godly rule protects the vulnerable, strengthens communities, and promotes human flourishing. His book is published by crossway, a nine marks. I believe this book can be used by God to make to make us and give us better authorities, especially in the church. After all, we have the only perfect example of authority where Lehmann writes this, quote, the central picture of authority in the Bible is Jesus offering himself as a substitutionary sacrifice for sins and quote, so this is a gospel centered take on authority where Jesus is the example but also the means, by our fallen nature, we will misuse authority and others will misuse it against us. Jesus can forgive us those sins when we ask forgiveness and repent. And he can bind up those wounds when we trust Him in faith. And my friend Jonathan is an experienced authority, the editorial director for nine marks and an elder has Cheverly Baptist Church in Maryland. And he joins me now on gospel bound to discuss why young men don’t want to be lead pastors, why leaders need accountability and why leaders must learn to absorb anger, among other subjects. Jonathan, thank you for joining me on gospel bound column.

Jonathan Leeman
Great to see you. And thank you for inviting me to this conversation. Yeah,

Collin Hansen
so bold move to write a book on authority, especially now I appreciate it very much. Right away. In the book, you say that you’re not perfectly good. And neither is the reader than any other approach would make us like the Pharisee. Who thinks God, he wasn’t like the tax collector. And then you write this quote, are profoundly Ferris aichele Post Christian world, which has abandoned all ideas of Original Sin teaches us to think that way. It classifies everyone has an abuser or a non abuser, oppressor or non oppressor. Those are the only moral categories it has left and, quote, help us understand. Jonathan, why did you choose to start the book with this framing?

Jonathan Leeman
Yeah, sure. Thank you. I think many of the indictments, certain postmodern, and what you know, Western philosophies make against authority are accurate. But as Kevin De Yong has put it, they just don’t go far enough. Right. And so far as you’re creating a world with all white hats, or black hats, those are the oppressors. These are the oppressed. You’re missing the one of the first claims of the Gospel itself, which is all have fallen, and are fallen short of the glory of God, right? All of us are sinful, and including how we use our authority. Right? There’s a sense in which human decision making agency is a kind of exercise of authority, right? God gives us dominion, like, steward this Be fruitful and multiply, subdue the earth. That is to say, exercise choice exercise agency, and bringing dominion to creation, the relationship between our agency and our authority are very close. So that is to say everybody’s exercising authority. And if we’ve all fallen, that means we’ve all misused our authority. So to start anywhere other than a word of contrition, like yeah, I’ve messed up, means you’re missing something hugely significant to this conversation. And so as you put it, I begin the book by saying, Yeah, I’m gonna I’m gonna write about better than I am, in certain respects.

Collin Hansen
Do you think Americans have a particular problem with authority? Or do you find that even differs from region or region or maybe even denomination to denomination?

Jonathan Leeman
Yeah, I think I think that’s absolutely true. Now, in one sense, the problem with authority is a Genesis three problem, right? Since Genesis three we’ve always been suspicious of authority. We’ve always wanted to displace the authority over me and grab onto it ourselves as Eve does and then Adam does right there in the garden. Nonetheless, since the enlightenment, which is you know, principally an experience of the Western world, at least in the beginning, we’ve been especially suspicious of authority, that is to say the Enlightened philosophies gave a kind of legitimacy to our questioning of authority that other times and cultures didn’t necessarily have. And I do think that persists in America relative to other places in the world, or let’s say the West, relative to other places in the world, by comparison, now, so So for instance, as I’m writing this book, I’m talking to pastors and, and people and say, Hispanic cultures or African cultures or Central Asian cultures. And they’re sometimes there’s different threats. There’s an overexertion of authority. Sure, right? Too much as it were deference given. So you talk to a senior pastor in a Hispanic or African context, and you’re talking about plurality of elders, and those pastors will say to you, I have an impossible time getting these these other elders to ever say no, to me, they just say yes to me, how do I get them to step up and lead? You know, so there are different problems and different places on the planet. And I think you’re right to your instinct, different regions of the United States, you’re gonna feel that go to the West Coast, when we you know, when nine marks was out to the West Coast to talk about church membership, man on the West Coast. Hey, Church membership, because it’s a kind of authority. You know, so you’re working against suspicions against authority in the West Coast differently than you are in other places of the country, Midwest, or, frankly, maybe even east coast. So yeah, and I’m sure we could draw out denominational examples, too.

Collin Hansen
I think perhaps when you combine the word southern with Baptist, you get a couple of different aspects that are very well, I mean, part of it’s their formative experience, the very definition of something being southern is in part a break with authority, which, of course, is just through the United States as well. And he combined Baptist and the Baptists also emerged out of a context of persecution in many cases, and being on the other side, you know, the dissenters. I mean, that’s, that’s the tradition that come out of the dissenters, that’s a very out of the Protestant movement. So it’s really based in a lot of ways in that sort of rejection of what they found to be unbiblical and ungodly authorities.

Jonathan Leeman
So, the takeaway lesson from this, I think, is to know the audience that you’re talking to, there are certain audiences that I might be speaking to, I need to lean into authority is good and given by God, there’s other audiences, I’d lead into and say, Hey, we need to be a little more suspicious of it, you’re over exerting it, you’re, you’re being authoritarian in ways you might not even recognize. And so one of the main things I’m trying to convey in the book is as Christians, we have good authority, authority, creation and redemption, and bad authority authority in the fall. And we don’t have the luxury of taking your eyes off of either we got to keep one eye on good authority and talk about it and another eye on bad authority and talk about it. Yeah.

Collin Hansen
Now, I’m gonna give you an either or, and you can’t say both. You understand this? Okay. You cannot say, Oh, I’m

Jonathan Leeman
not gonna like this. Does today’s version, you’re asserting your authority, or exactly,

Collin Hansen
it’s my podcast, you gotta you gotta submit. Does today’s aversion to authority have more to do with a individualistic culture where no one can tell me what to do? Or be increasing evidence that leaders abuse authority?

Jonathan Leeman
Can I get some Jeopardy theme music? Doo doo doo doo? Honestly, I think it’s a. Okay now, because abuse is a huge problem. I think it’s just being exposed. Sure, more than it has been before. So it’s not new there. I think abuse is as it were the urgent problem. Everybody feels right now because it’s being exposed. Nonetheless, I think a suspicion of authority is the longer undergirding long term problem. There’s a place to give attention to urgent problems. And there’s a place to give attention to long term problems. And I mean, look, abuse is a long term problem, too. I don’t want to deny that.

Collin Hansen
While the internet, the internet exposes things in ways that are, are new in the last 2525 years. I mean, one of the things that I do in teaching on cultural apologetics and the decline of church attendance since 2000, is to ask people to find what date on the calendar, the Boston Globe published its Spotlight Series. There were all kinds of reports in the Boston Globe and other media over the years about abuse,

Jonathan Leeman
sex abuse in the church, because that’s right.

Collin Hansen
Yeah, that’s right. So and the point is that it follows the majority use of the Internet. And so what used to be buried in, you know, the second section 10 page or something like that in the newspaper about another abuse scandal or one that was not even a scandal yet, but just an accusation or sacking of a priest or something like that. All of a sudden, it was it was huge news and it spread like crazy. And in many ways, of course, we recognize that as a good thing. Of course, it’s a good thing that abuse and evil was being exposed. It goes along then with a severe distrust of authority in terms of how that has spread throughout the Catholic Church, and then certainly to clergy, in general in there. So that’s a significant factor and a real phenomenon. But I don’t think anybody would argue that it wasn’t happening before. But the distrust is, is changed because of the exposure of it.

Jonathan Leeman
Let me let me answer the question like this, if I can, maybe take a slight retake on how I answered that question. This was about 10 homes, right? In those 10 homes, my assumption, and I’m happy to be corrected and say, Jonathan, you’re idiot, you’re just ignorant. And that may be the case, my assumption as a pastor who’s who’s, you know, Pastor, two or three different churches now. And based on what I see, my assumption is of those 10 homes, abuse is going to be a problem. And one, maybe two of them, or as an abdication of authority is going to be a problem and eight of them. Okay, it’s the more common problem, at least in the West. Now, if you take me to, you know, certain Arabic countries, that ratio is going to change quite a bit. Yeah, in a western context, right now, I’m assuming eight, maybe 910s out of the home that we’re airing in the direction of abdication. And

Collin Hansen
I think that says so in that

Jonathan Leeman
sense. That’s what Yeah, but now in that one home, or in those two homes, the problem of abuse is a huge urgent problem, huge problem. Now, it’s the most important problem you have to talk about. And I don’t want to downplay that often, that’s not the real problem. No, in those homes, that’s the real problem. And so pastors and leaders generally need to have a certain urgency about that.

Collin Hansen
Well, maybe to come back and also answer my own question. abuse of authority is the problem that we notice. Individualism is the problem that in many ways that we don’t, because it’s so taken for granted as an assumption in our culture. So that is probably the more prevalent phenomenon underneath everything. But the presenting phenomenon that we’re that we’re dealing with now, in an acute manner is the exposure of that abuse, specifically in the West. Let’s go back to the 1960s. I really appreciated your comments on the civil rights movement, and also related to what we’re talking about here abuse advocates of today. And one thing that’s I don’t know why this wasn’t obvious to me, Jonathan, but you really drew it out? Well, it’s not that they oppose authority. You write this quote, We instinctively recognize that the solution to bad authority is seldom no authority, but almost always good authority. And there was actually a book written appeal at surprise book winning and winning book in history, talking about a city in Alabama, and the resistance to federal authority. And, of course, the response to the civil rights movement and other anti slavery advocates and all that through history was never just against local authority, it was the invocation of federal authority to come and help them in there. So I’m wondering how much do you think today’s angst is either on the one side, it’s it part of it’s just a question of who’s in charge, that sort of federal versus state phenomenon or more optimistically, maybe it’s just a longing for better authorities? Overall,

Jonathan Leeman
I think there is a longing for better authorities. But I don’t think people quite recognize that I think they assume the problem is authority itself. And so even Christian writers, I’ll see where it’s like, oh, authority is a necessary evil when prominent Christian journalist use that language not long ago, it’s a necessary evil. You know, another example is so it’s not just the Civil Rights is one example of that. I think another example of that is the abuse scandal. When abuse happens in churches, what are abuse advocates calling for? They’re calling the times for intervention of the state, right, in various forms of, of investigation. So they’re not just saying, you know, nobody should lead, they’re saying, No, the protectors need to come in and protect, right, and those protectors are going to be other authorities. So we have this sort of schizophrenic attitude, I would say in some ways towards authority. On the one hand, we recognize as dangerous and we want to throw it off and say it’s all bad or at best, it’s a necessary evil. On the other hand, we can’t help but appeal to other authority. So my question is, okay, well, let’s let’s look at that and think about it. What is good authority? How much time it will give into that topic? Let’s think about it. Yeah.

Collin Hansen
Yeah. It’s very helpful. It just crystallized a lot of things. Now, here’s something I talked about Jonathan often with, especially with pastors And this seems to resonate with them. I’ve noticed about three shifts in five years, which tells you how rapidly these things seemed to come and go. The first shift in the last five years was this general sense that pastors are bad. The second shift then was being a pastor as miserable. And then the third shift was, why would anyone want to be a lead pastor. And I think you have the right perspective, which is, it’s sobering for anybody who wants to be a pastor, you know, that if you, you want to have authority, you better be good at submitting to higher authority and suffering with humility. And you write this quote, what the godly leader feels today, or not all the advantages, but the burdens of responsibility, of culpability of even bearing and others guilt, good authority is profoundly costly, usually involve in the sacrifice of everything. And close quote. Let’s say you’re talking now, Jonathan to a room of young adults, why should they aspire to authority

Jonathan Leeman
for the sake of loving and caring for others, for the sake of serving, for the sake of, as I put in the book, authour authority, authority authoring life in others, to flee authority is to fleet Yes, the possibility of being attacked or harmed, or, you know, working extra hard. But it’s also fleeing the opportunity to use the authority that God would give to do good. So if you’re truly going to be others centered, you’re not going to simply protect yourself from harm, you’re going to put yourself in harm’s way. And that’s one of the things I talked about in the book, good authority, drawers as it were, the costs upward, and so far as you can, right. So I, you know, the hard working principle is the first car in the parking lot and the last card on leave in a day, you know, that principle is working in some ways harder than anybody else. Or if I’m sitting around watching football and my home on a Sunday afternoon, while my wife is kind of scurrying around getting the laundry done getting grocery lists made and getting ready for the week, and she just going crazy on Sunday trying to prepare the kids for the week. And I’m just like sitting there, you know, watching TV, my wife should not be more tired than me. I should be more tired than my wife. At the end of the weekend. If I’m going to be a good authority in her life, I’m doing all I can do absorb those costs. So yes, let’s let’s, let’s talk about cost absorption. He came not to be served, but to serve and give his life as a ransom for many going back to Jesus as the perfect authority. Right. He’s built he poured himself out to give life. So again, back to your question, what do I say to that young person who’s afraid to aspire to business or leadership? Because it seems so costly? I want to say yes, it is costly. But it’s precisely in those costs. That you are fulfilling what you were called to do, which is author life, give life create life in other people and love them.

Collin Hansen
It just occurred to me, Jonathan, I wonder if the move away from a desire for that authority, because of its cost might also be related to the decreasing desire to be parents. To have children, it’s the same phenomenon. We’ve all experienced the problems, because we’ve all had parents, those parents were not perfect. If I mean, if we had them, we know they weren’t perfect. And if we didn’t have them around that we know that that’s also a source of pain. But maybe we’re also just afraid of what we would do. As parents. It’s kind of afraid that

Jonathan Leeman
that may be a quick, quick story. I don’t know if it makes your point or not. But when my wife and I were dating, we were still dating. At one point, I was convinced I didn’t want to have kids. Because I was in seminary at the time. And I wanted to, I wanted to do a lot of great things for Jesus. And I didn’t want to be hindered by family so that I could go out and do great things for the Kingdom. Right. And so one point you’re dating, I said, Are you know, I don’t think we’ll have kids. And she’s like, are you serious? I’m like, I’m pretty sure I don’t have kids. And she’s like, Okay, well, then we’re breaking up. And she broke up with me on the spot like that. Colin, you wouldn’t believe it. But 24 hours later, I was pretty sure I wanted to.

Collin Hansen
Well, I do think it makes my point because if you’re not willing to change diapers, you probably are not going to be able to do great things for the Kingdom. And I’m wondering about willingness, it doesn’t mean that that’s some sort of qualification, but it’s the same reason we’ve talked before at the gospel coalition and elsewhere about, well, you guys do this at nine marks all the time and around Capitol Baptist Church, and you want to do great things for Jesus. Start with the nursing home. Start and start by start by bringing those those women to church by preaching their start by helping with the children’s ministry, that if you’re willing to do those things, then maybe you can be used by God. had to do great things. But if you’re not willing, that’s probably a probably a bad sign that you’re not willing to submit.

Jonathan Leeman
He who is responsible to few things will be responding and will be. Will be entrusted with many things. Yeah. Quick, a quick, a quick story there. And I tell this in the book, I’m sitting in a chair, comfortably, my nine year old daughter’s sitting in her chair on the other side of the room, and I say, Sweetheart, what you go get Daddy a drink? What am I doing at that moment, I’m exploiting the fact that I know nine year old her will be happy to get up and get Daddy a drink. Right? Now, I might have good reasons to do that. You know, there might be good things about teaching her to honor her father, and so forth. So I don’t want to say that’s necessarily sin. But I know what’s going on in my sinful heart in that moment, I just want to push the cost down onto her of getting up out of the chair. And it occurred to me, I remember doing that, and it occurred to me, he came not to be served, but to serve and give his life as a ransom for many. Now, there is a place that when you in a position of authority, you push costs downwards. And the general says to the soldiers, you got to take that hill. Absolutely right. Or the Cinterion, who comes to Jesus and I sorted this one guy, and he goes, this one comes in, he comes by to and under authority. So there is a place to push costs down. But there’s there should be an ambition, and a good leaders heart to as I said, dropped costs upward, and not push them down when one can. And children are a place where that clearly happens. doing all we can to push costs downward. But yeah, that was

Collin Hansen
one of the more convicting parts about the book, maybe we should keep going in the interview here.

Jonathan Leeman
Really never done that with your never call it never

Collin Hansen
I’m thinking about a moment related to the TV two nights ago, but let’s let’s just get me yeah. Let’s talk about spiritual spiritual abuse. You define it this way, using the Bible or the name of God to justify your abuses? Whatever they are? How do you feel about this category of spiritual abuse the way that it’s used today? Is it is it been generally helpful to understand a particular dynamic related to abuse? Or has it been perhaps confusing? In some other ways? How do you assess it?

Jonathan Leeman
Yeah, I’ve been a little reluctant to use those categories, a little suspicious of them, because I think they’re so easily misused, and used to criticize pastors and criticize leaders to Oh, you’re, you know, you’re asking me to do something, or I don’t want to do or you’re, you’re correcting me or you’re being negative or that spiritual abuse. And I think it’s really easy to throw out those words and those charges in a way that’s irresponsible and loving and ultimately is going to hurt you. Because it doesn’t give you the opportunity to be corrected, to grow and so forth to be challenged. So yeah, I am a little suspicious of that language. Nonetheless, I think it is something very real, and we need to be mindful of it. So it was it was actually dealing with an abused wife that helped me understand it better, I think, I think she actually gave definition to it, which is what you just said. So if abuse is using my authority selfishly to harm another, or in a way that results in another’s harm, right? spiritual abuse is then invoking God’s name to justify that. Well, God put me in charge therefore, in other words, I’m doing harm using my authority in a way that harms. But I’m trying to pass the buck to God. I think that’s terrible. Right. And so I do think pastors and leaders genuine generally need to be very careful about lying about God in that way, and ascribing the selfish, exploitative, oppressive harm that you do to him. Because what do you do when you do that? You undermine a person’s faith in God, and ability to rely on him as a good Creator, who only exclusively 100% uses his authority for good, right? So I think the parent who, or the manager or the military officer who uses his or her authority, for harm will be judged, will be called to account. And the one who invokes God’s name and doing that harm will especially be judged will especially be called to account. So if you use your authority in a way that harms others, you know, I would plead with you do not blame God or draw God into it. No, you do not want to undermine the faith of others think about Jesus warning about the person who does that. Might as well you know, tie a millstone around the neck and toss him into the sea. Because when these little ones to stumble,

Collin Hansen
he can see I mean, this is your your writing here in this book is very helpful, but it’s also very heavy. Because we’ve been on both sides of this so many different times. Having been mistreated but also mistreating and misusing that authority which happens at so many different levels. I think he hit the nail on the head when he wrote this, quote, bad authority exists whenever an authority figure insists on holding others accountable, but refuses to be held accountable. And quote, I think Jonathan, I can look back on at least it’s

Jonathan Leeman
good. You want to talk about American politics?

Collin Hansen
Do not want to

Jonathan Leeman
assume you’re bringing up American politics.

Collin Hansen
I was. I was not I was actually thinking about back to the church. I well, I mean, I will say, I will say one thing that about politics, which is that it’s interesting that both parties seem to be so good at, like, they seem to be popular when they’re complaining about the other groups authority, and then they seem to collapse when they have authority. And that helps you to understand we don’t even cement so much have. We have to I mean, maybe we have some ideological problems. But underlying that we have a clear authority, accountability problem.

Jonathan Leeman
There, nobody wants to be held accountable. Either party, nobody want to be held accountable.

Collin Hansen
Yeah, well, and that’s what happens with an election. And like all the incentives are on the side of saying, here are the problems, but the system actually seems incentivized to not offer solutions. Because taking responsibility and taking authority just makes you a target for everybody else to tear down. And oh, my goodness, we could do a whole nother podcast on the media you don’t want to talk about I didn’t I wanted to talk about in the church, almost. I think maybe every major leadership failure that I have seen, had this same problem. But my question is, let’s imagine you see somebody in this position before the fall. Yeah. In other words, it’s not enough afterward to say I could see that coming. Okay, well, if you can see it coming, what, what should you do in the moment? When you see something?

Jonathan Leeman
Yeah, sure. Well, I think there’s both structural elements and personnel elements. I do think certain structures, I think any structure can be abused. I think congregational, Presbyterian, Anglican, whatever, structures can all be abused, misused. I do think some structures are better than others. So I think there is value in giving, or let’s say, more inclined towards creating bad situations. I mean, isn’t that the experience of the American Revolution where there was an emphasis not on raising authority up higher, but pushing authority down? Right. So I do think some structures are better than others? Number one, number two, okay, the person I think that’s more the spirit of your question, what I’m gonna give him church, I’m gonna give an organization ministry or otherwise, and I, in observing certain what abuses of power, is that is that what I’m facing? What do I do? Yeah.

Collin Hansen
Well, just somebody who is holding others accountable, and is unwilling to be held accountable themselves, I think we can see this with, with senior pastors, we can see this with fathers with husbands I just saying, every situation, it seems like you really nailed that issue of they are willing to hold others to account but they are not willing to be held to count themselves. What do you do? Sure, you can see it,

Jonathan Leeman
what do you do? First of all, it’s a really tough situation, and there’s probably not going to be a clean solution. But okay, a few steps. Number one, obviously, pray about it. Number two, if if it’s not the church, or even if it is the church, you know, you might talk to an elder about it. Now, if it’s the elders, who are the problem, okay, fine. But but but if it’s not, you know, I’d encourage you to talk to an elder about it. That is to say, invoke older, mature people who you trust, to help navigate you through it. Number three, in some situations, I think you might address the individual themselves. Now, in some situations, that’s not safe. You can’t I get that, if you can. I do think you have a responsibility to speak to the person who’s in charge or who’s over you who is is creating the problems or saying certain patterns. And when you have that conversation, you don’t go with accusations you go into the questions you go in with not indictments so much as personal experiences. You know, there’s wiser and less wise ways to have that convert conversation. Oh, you know, let me let me let me say this. You know, assume that people in positions of authority might have more facts than you. You might not be seeing everything rightly. You know, give them genuinely an opportunity to say well, actually, there’s other these other factors at play, and that’s why we, the elders are we the boss would ever acted in the way that we did. So don’t assume that your understanding is exactly the right understanding. Call that call that step four, so that when you go in step three to talk you you are there At a genuinely listen. I do think that if a fifth, you may if you can, you may need to leave. Right I think I think about how Paul in talks about slavery, for instance, or an MP to talk about slavery. So if you look at First Peter chapter two and he talks about submitting to even harsh masters, I think Peters assumption there is you can’t leave your you’re stuck in the system. How do you deal with it? Right? That’s a tough passage. But Peters assumption is that you’re stuck inside of this system. And so he’s kind of giving you advice about how to deal with it at the same time, as Paul says in first Corinthians seven, if you can get out

Collin Hansen
of that slavery, get out of freedom, get your freedom. Yeah. That’s right.

Jonathan Leeman
So I do think there are situations where, depending on the nature of abuse, depending on the you know, there’s a difference between a husband who’s hitting you and a boss, you can be a little snarky at times. Right. Okay, the husband is hitting, you gotta get out. Yeah, the boss was a little snarky at times. Well, that’s different. Right. And so your decision about to stay there depends on if you’re stuck or not. And it depends on how bad it is. And again, I think back to the first thing, I said, prayer and speaking to other people who might be able to guide you, I think is important.

Collin Hansen
No step of going to social media, Jonathan. Well, to warn others,

Jonathan Leeman
I don’t want to say that that’s always a bad idea. But I think it’s a bad idea. Probably 90% More of the time, 95% more of the time than people think.

Collin Hansen
Well, I mean, it’s it’s certainly very, very complicated. It’s fraught with all sorts of temptations and misunderstandings. And yet also, sometimes that’s been precisely what’s been used to be able to take down of an unjust system. But that is a very complicated dynamic in there. Two more to keep up the you guys are getting a sense. If you’re watching, you’re listening here of of just all the different topics that Jonathan gets into, in his book, authority, how godly rule protects the vulnerable, strengthens communities, and promotes human flourishing, I had two more, and these were probably my, the ones that I wanted the most help with, or that were most I mean, all this has been insightful to me. But maybe that stuck with me the moat, most there was a moment in here, Jonathan, where I felt like a light bulb went off. And when that happens, when I’m reading a book, I just keep talking about it to other people. You write that, Pastor?

Jonathan Leeman
Go ahead, keep in mind, we’re gonna have to turn the tables and I get to ask a couple of times,

Collin Hansen
no way. No way. It gets your own podcast. You’ve already done that with me on pastors talk. No, I in a moment, okay. All right. That’s fine. One of the best right now. Okay. All right. I’m getting prepared. Here’s the light bulb. Pastors must be willing to carry or absorb their churches, anger. That I don’t know that that’s something a lot of young pastors heading into ministry expect? Let’s put this observation and other way in form of a question. What happens Jonathan, when they don’t, when they’re not willing to carry or absorb their church’s anger?

Jonathan Leeman
Yeah, I hate that point. It’s a stupid point. I wish I hadn’t heard that. Because it’s so hard. It’s so hard, it feels so unjust. And when I’m in those moments, where I’m asked to as a pastor of the church is one of the pastors that just to absorb it, and say nothing. Everything inside of me is like no way. And that certainly there is a time to say, to draw lines, I’m not denying that. But, but you also have to have a category of absorption. Well,

Collin Hansen
what I find in a congregation is that you have especially in these days, a sort of accumulation or collection of anxiety. And a lot of that which is expressed often in the form of anger is just directed either directly or indirectly, at the pastor. And it seems like a lot of the pastor’s job is to simply is to absorb it and not transmit it and not to exacerbate it. That just seems like when they Yeah, go ahead.

Jonathan Leeman
I was gonna say I think when that when they don’t. Number one, they build a ministry on themselves on building a ministry that’s on protecting themselves not on giving to the flock number two, I think they provoke further controversy in the congregation because they’re just deflecting, push it off to somebody else rather than absorbing it. Number three, I think there’s a sitting setting a non Christ like example, a huge part of elders job a pastor’s job is to set an example so first Peter five, not domineering does under your charge, but setting the example Imitate me as I imitate Christ. First Corinthians four First Corinthians 11 Hebrews 13 Seven, consider the outcome of their aware lie of their way of life and imitate their faith. So if I’m not demonstrating a, he came not to be served, but serve and give his rather life as a ransom for many, if I’m not demonstrating that kind of use of authority, I’m teaching an anti gospel example with my authority. So I’m undermining the very thing that I am called to do, which is teach people the gospel and what it means to live the gospel. Right. So though I hate having to absorb what I perceive to be other people’s in justices, that’s what I’m called to do as a dad, husband, as a as a, as a as a manager, as a pastor, perhaps especially.

Collin Hansen
And on the maybe self interested or practical side, as well. If you don’t absorb it, if you exacerbate it, or you transmit it, you also incentivize high anxiety people in your congregation to keep doing it. Yeah, I’ll keep doing it to you. You’re never gonna, you’re not gonna solve their problems.

Jonathan Leeman
Now, yeah, it shows that you know, the things of this world can make me tremble. Yeah, rather than having a steady foot on the rock of God, an elder must be says Paul and elder must be sober minded. And by demonstrating that soberness steadiness. I

Collin Hansen
think Paul Tripp talks about this well as with parents, and their parental authority, that so much of what we do is absorbing that. And when we deflect it back to our kids, in anger, or frustration, or project onto them, those anxieties, it makes everything go go wrong, which is why it’s so helpful for Paul to often Paul tripped off and say that, what they were feeling within these anxieties and these frustrations, and this anger is, is about us. It’s not about the other people in there. So this is an opportunity for us to take that. We absorb it and take it to the Lord and take it to not take it to others. All right. I have one last question. It’s a big one. So you better you better ask your question. Now. I’m prepared a

Jonathan Leeman
comment and a question. Brother, you and I were standing in a church building in Atlanta, a year or two ago. And I remember this, I don’t know if you remember this. But you said to me in that moment, you said, Oh, my goodness, I have just been amazed to reflect on the power of good leadership versus bad leadership. I remember that conversation. And it was that comment that was in my head a lot. As I was working through this book, and reflecting on my own experiences of life of being under by God’s grace, mostly good authority. A few a few instances about authority. And why did so my my, my question for actually have two questions. My first question for you is why did you What were you thinking? You could tell us about your life, per se. But what were you thinking when you said, Oh, my goodness, good leadership makes all the difference?

Collin Hansen
Yeah, I think I think in reformed communities, especially in the church, we sort of assume leadership is downstream from other giftings. We assume that it comes along with an ability to write books, to host podcasts to write articles, the kinds of things that you and I do, execute attacks, execute attacks, all that kind of stuff, lead a prayer meeting, things like that. I mean, that is a form of leadership, of course, and these others are necess essential elements of spiritual leadership. But there is also a true gifting and also a discipline and also a demand of leadership. And when you’re in I mean, I’ll give you an example of somebody that I think is really good at this. Mark broke up at College Park church when you’re around him. And he’s had many challenges. It’s a very large church, leading it through through difficulties. But you can just see what a good leader does. Like when you see a good leader at work, a gifted leader, a dedicated leader, somebody who has that first in the office last to leave absorbs that kind of stuff. You just see the way other people flourish. That’s why, you know, promote human flourishing is the last bit of your subtitle in there. I was just thinking that when you can look around at churches when you can look at Capitol Hill Baptist Church under Mark Devers leadership over the years, you can just you see a place where people flourish in the Lord. It’s almost like that leader creates that canopy under which others can grow up in a healthy, protected way. They’re just not everybody is like that. Not everybody is gifted that way. And you’ll see other churches and other organizations dealing with neverending forms of dysfunction either because the culture let’s take a lot of churches for example, they might Have a dysfunctional culture that makes leadership impossible for somebody coming in. And you know, and they just they just abused those pastors and those pastors can’t lead such we can see that one problem. And then another problem, you can just see how a pastor is bad leadership or negligent. You pointed out, Jonathan, that bad leadership is not always this present abuse. It’s often just it’s an abdication of authority. It’s an unwillingness to do the necessary things of work of leadership. And I’ve seen, you know, let’s take one example here. Last Last point I want to make some people who are in leadership positions are very conflict averse. And so they hope that just by ignoring problems, they suddenly go away. But an effective leader is not like drawn to conflict, but they’re drawn toward healing. They’re drawn toward helping, they have discernment, they have wisdom that can help to mediate and ultimately to move through. So you don’t need a leader who is, again, you don’t want a leader who’s drawn toward conflict, but you want one who is who has an ability to be able to absorb that anger and defuse it for the sake and to step into it willing to step into it, because as a leader conflict is an an unavoidable, unavoidable part of your life. Does that make sense? That’s what I have in mind is exactly what that is.

Jonathan Leeman
Alright, one one text. If you’ve heard me talk on this subject, or been around nine marks, we use this text all the time. But if you’re new to the conversation, that’s a good one to know. Second, Samuel 23, David’s final words of David, he says, when one rules justly over man ruling in the fear of God, notice how we fears and the fear of God, he dawns on them, like morning light, sun shining forth on a cloud this morning, like rain that makes grass to sprout from the earth. So there is a flourishing, that field is green, because the sun’s coming down and the rains coming down, and it’s giving life. So yeah, good leadership. Does that

Collin Hansen
last one here, then, Jonathan? Why don’t we want our government to rule with spiritual authority? To put it another way that I’ve heard pretty often, how can Christians government be a bad thing that we wouldn’t ask God to give us?

Jonathan Leeman
Seriously? Yep.

Collin Hansen
Why do you think I waited till the last year you’re a friend? That’s why I do this to you.

Jonathan Leeman
Like my computer battery? Fire. Just

Collin Hansen
sounds so simple, Jonathan, I think you’ve heard this as many times as I’ve had, how can Christian government be a bad thing that we wouldn’t ask God to give us?

Jonathan Leeman
Yeah, because the priestly role that belonged to the nation of Israel, was not also handed to Nebuchadnezzar, and snacker robe, and Pharaoh and Pilate and Caesar and the government of the United States from China or Nigeria, that priestly role of being identified with God and protecting the name of God and a right understanding of God, and what’s the inside versus the outside of God’s people and what’s right doctrine that priestly authority doesn’t go to the nation, it goes to the church, the church has given the keys of the kingdom is is given that authority to declare this is the right doctrine. These are the who are the people of God are and that’s a church leader authority ecclesial authority, not a state authority, the state has authority of the Thor, sorry, the sword, to protect life preserve life, create a platform for human flourishing. And so when Jesus says render to Caesar what Caesar’s and render was God was God, he was not saying, you have God’s things and Caesar’s things, and they have nothing to do with each other. He wasn’t saying that he very much had Caesar under God. Nonetheless, Caesar this pagan ruler, still out authority to do what he was doing whether or not he recognized God or not. Right, so there was the kingdom of God was on earth in the nation of Israel. Right so so the kingdom God was was visible, seeable there at the temple there the king to David’s throne and his descendants thrones. But when Jesus says render to Caesar, what Caesars to God was God he was as it were saying, okay, the kingdom of God now on Earth visibly, as you guys the church, and the state Caesar isn’t speaking for isn’t representing the kingdom of God on earth, those things are separate. The priestly goes here, the kingly goes there. And then you look at the care of the apostles take in the book of Acts with the name of Jesus, the preaching and the name of the gene, they they celebrate going up for the sake of the name and they baptize it in the name, who possesses the name of God. Now, Christ will those who are baptized into the name and gather in the name and sort of put the Jesus His name tag on mixed assembly’s deliberately that is to say a nation while you’re being anti Lord supper, anti baptism, anti gospel, anti Great Commission, the name of Jesus gets attached to Christians. And if you want to say, you know the works of Christian Christian publisher fine, I can say that Chris, even a Christian radio station, fine. I can, I can live with that when I can’t live with is putting it on groups of people that are deliberately Christian and non Christian, like a nation. I don’t think we have any precedent for that in the New Testament. Okay, there was a good summary of church and state. I’m not 60 seconds. That’s like a deal.

Collin Hansen
That was really it was really good. And I’m, I’m not asking it out of left field. You do talk about this in the book. And it is something that comes up pretty often. So hopefully you guys have heard and seen here. I think this is especially helpful for anybody who’s in church leadership, deacons, elders, pastors. It’s a great book for seminary classes, all that sort of stuff. So check it out. Jonathan Lehmann, the author, my guest and gospel bound this week, his book, authority, how godly rule protects the vulnerable, strengthens communities, and promotes human flourishing. It’s new out there from crossway and nine marks. Thanks, Jonathan.

Jonathan Leeman
Thank you, brother. Appreciate the conversation.