J. D. Greear on What Makes the Book of Romans Feel So Fresh Today

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Collin Hansen
The gospel is not just the diving board off which we jump into Christianity is the swimming pool in which we swim. That’s a line from JD Greer’s new book essential Christianity the heart of the gospel in 10 words published by the Good Book Company. Greer is pastor at the summit church in North Carolina and the author of many books. He served as the 62nd president of the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant church network in the United States. His book essential Christianity works through Romans, the apostle Paul’s magnum opus, based on Romans Greer defines the gospel the good news of Jesus Christ this way, quote, God in an act of grace sent his son Jesus to earth as a man so that through His life, death and resurrection, he could rescue us reign as king and lead us into the eternal full life we were created to enjoy and quote.

Now gear writes not only to encourage believers in Jesus, but also to challenge non Christians. He aims to show how gospel the gospel defies many modern expectations. For example, he writes this quote, the cross yields a radical inclusiveness that welcomes anyone celebrates everyone, and looks down on no one and quote, JD joins me on gospel bound today to talk more about Romans, the human condition, leadership, man, maybe I’ll have a question or two about the SBC. JD, thanks for joining me.

J. D. Greear
That’s a very broad palette of questions, you just define that slightly ominous promise and under delivers what I feel like I’ve been set up

Collin Hansen
All right, so let’s just let’s, let’s start simple. What do you think makes Romans still feel so fresh in addressing the human condition today?

J. D. Greear
You know, I mean, you start with some of the historical facts just about how they almost every major awakening, the Reformation itself, you know, it just goes back to looking into what Paul was talking about in the book of Romans. And, you know, my thought kind of in this was it really started with something for the church in one of the commentaries that Luther wrote, not on Romans, but he just was talking to a group of pastors and he said, Hey, never aspire to teach the church at large teach your church. And if the church at large feels like you have something to say to it’ll come to you. So this really kind of started just walking our church to the book of Romans, which had been scared to preach for about 17 years, because, you know, I mean, we all know deed, Martyn Lloyd Jones, and whatever what to say

16 years and it’s something like that. So I kind of been scared, and then just the fruitfulness the way that the way that Paul, you know, kind of his, his argumentation where he anticipates objections, and then answers them. You know, it’s kind of anecdotal, I share this anecdote in the book. But you know, for the first, you know, century of Harvard’s law school, they’d use Romans as an example of how to walk through an argument starting with presuppositions that we all share, and then reasoning to it. And so, you know, what I found was that as you isolated these questions, and rewarded them, they were the exact same questions that it’s interesting, you know, Molly Worthen, who had you had on your podcast earlier, she, at the time was not a believer. And I asked her, she started coming to church and was writing the book. And I said, Would you read this book along with me at it from the perspective of an unbeliever? And she said about halfway through it? She said, she said, It’s amazing that the questions that Paul is asking and answering are the same ones I get from my students at UNC Chapel Hill, you know, whether they’re raised in a Christian background or not. And she said, it makes that, you know, this content that much more, more relevant. So interesting little tidbit, you know, I tell a story about her in the first chapter of the book, and I call her an unbeliever because she was, and then by the time the book was published, she’d become a believer. So she’s on the back now as a believer, so you can actually look at the first and end part of the book and see, you know, BC and AD for Molly Worthen.

Collin Hansen
I love that I had no idea I did not pick up on that. I love it. I want to ask you about this quote. You write this, the most important thing about Jesus is not what He taught. But what he did. Paul’s letter to the Romans, in fact, speaks very little about what Jesus taught and a whole lot about what he did. It’s not what he taught that saved us but what he did. The symbol of Christianity is not a lectern, but across Christianity is, in its essence, a rescue religion. I’m just going to ask the question I think a lot of people would have when they hear that, how does Romans relate to the Gospels? Because of course, they include so much of Jesus’s teaching

J. D. Greear
Yeah, no great question, I definitely want to be the guy on record saying what Jesus taught was not really important or should be downplayed at all. But you’re one of the things that da Carson says, I don’t realize that what I just did is there sort of a, you know, appeal to authority. But he says that, really all the Gospels are an extended narrative leading up to the passion, like it’s kind of the setup for the best, the one thing that is the center point of every book, you know, not literarily the center, but it’s where it’s all headed. And, you know, Jesus’s teaching is certainly in the Sermon on the Mount the, you know, the course the wisdom and the ethics, and countless books justifiably been written on those things. But at the end of the day, this is about a crucified savior, who’s you know, who what he did, is a what saved humanity. And it’s be what informs all the rest of the ethics and how we see ourselves and how we see the Kingdom itself. You know, I’ve been places where I would guess, well, well, many people would say, you know, in fact, I’m thinking of one right now where a guy said, you know, we’ve heard enough about the death of Jesus, we need to talk about the life of Jesus and what He taught, and it was so passionate, and he was trying to get it, you know, discipleship, that’s all for that. But there’s no possible way to understand anything about Jesus, what he taught or what he lived, or the significance he had, if you don’t put at the center point, the cross and the empty tomb. So I don’t know maybe there’s a little bit over speak saying that. But you know, that’s, that’s what we’re going for.

Collin Hansen
Well, is it surprising? Should we be surprised that Paul does not interact more with Jesus’s teaching? I mean, I wonder if how many people even notice that when they’re picking up, Paul, is that it’s kind of now of course, at the time you’re talking about the BC the ad of Molly Worthen. That’s part of Paul’s life. Right? Well, right. I mean, he would have known some of Jesus’s teaching, but he wasn’t there, in the same way that the people in the gospels were, but he would have been familiar with it. Different ways. But should that be surprising to us? Or? Yeah,

J. D. Greear
I don’t think so. I mean, yeah, you’re a good a good enough scholar, we all recognize that there are allusions to Jesus’s teaching kind of littered all through Paul, what he says there are, you know, it, he definitely demonstrates a degree of familiarity. It’s it was popular for a while in the liberal wing of the church to try to separate you know, Jesus, Paul, but that, you know, I think, a consistent, responsible scholarship, the New Testament would never do that. Because what Paul is picking up on is, yes, what Jesus taught about the kingdom is, is essential. But when he says, I’ve determined to know nothing among you, but Jesus Christ and Him crucified, he’s not saying that at the expense of Jesus’s teachings. He’s saying that that is the culmination, it’s the, it’s the foundation on which all the teachings make sense. And it the emphasis he puts on the syllable of the death and resurrection could lead him to an overstatement. Like, I didn’t know anything among you, except for this. That’s how important it was in his teaching scheme.

Collin Hansen
Yeah. And of course, one of the things that Jesus taught one of the main things he taught was that he needed to die, and why he needed to die. I mean, that’s a clear turning point. There in the gospels, when it’s like, you know what, I’m heading to Jerusalem, it’s gonna be bad, but it has to happen. You know, a teaching that was very difficult that there was a lot of consternation about and that didn’t make sense, apart from the events that they saw in Jerusalem with his with his crucifixion, and ultimately, His resurrection. Yeah,

J. D. Greear
and then even call them what he said about, you know, the infamous encounter on Luke 24, where he’s now going to go back and say everything that was taught in the Old Testament was about what I did, it’s a silhouette that is created so even Jesus’s teaching in the New Testaments are creating for us a silhouette that the death and resurrection I mean, you know, not to overcoat Luther here, but you know, the theology of glory versus the theology of the cross, or it really is the dividing line between gospel religion and man religion.

Collin Hansen
Well, you, you, you make a number of allusions in the book to skepticism toward Christianity. One of them that you mentioned is the DNA strand, and talking about how you could reconcile the DNA strand with the accident of life. And I love this phrase that you have you say, it’s like thinking that an explosion in an ink factory could inadvertently produce the collected works of Shakespeare as some good preacher talk right there. JD? How does the Gorgon it’s true? How does Romans speak to creation as conviction? In other words, how can we be judged by God even if we never hear or reject the gospel Help Help elucidate that point that Paul makes.

J. D. Greear
Yeah, you know, that obviously is one of the most difficult questions that you face. I kind of joke I have a little podcast call asked me anything that was originally just for our church of questions they would ask me and I found that with people basically only asked five questions And once you learn your answers to these five questions, you kind of require creations on those themes, variations on those themes. And this is always one of them, you know, is just a sense of like fairness and, and, and what it is, you know, how we what do we do to quote JP Chesky? Mr. Open pronouncing his name correctly, but he’s like, this is what we can’t not know what we cannot know about creation that creation is testifying to us about the reality of God it does though the, you know, your philosophical, cosmological and your tele illogical, and your moral arguments. And some people wrongly kind of read these as like proofs, like we’re really trying to lay out this ironclad case. And I’m not saying that there’s, I’m not saying they’re illogical or that they have holes in them. But really, what Paul is getting at is not that aspect of it as much as he is like, these are things that that are just self evident that it takes a biased heart, to be able to, to miss. And that’s what Paul is going to end up concluding in Romans three is that the reason that you miss the truth about God is not that it’s not clear enough for you to see, it’s that you have a reason not to believe and I think one of the analogies I use in the book is, you know, if you’re, if you’re coming on a crime scene, and if if you are a if you’re racist, and the evidence clearly points to, you know, somebody being guilty of this crime, that you don’t want to be guilty of it, because you would prefer somebody else be guilty of it, it may cause you to misread evidence just out of the hate and bigotry in your heart, you might be able to come up with a logical case, why this other person, but you’re missing the obvious clues. And what Paul does is he says, Look, this is pretty This doesn’t even need that much explanation, because God has made it evident. And what we’re guilty of is not ignorance of the truth. But suppression. Suppression is different than ignorance. Ignorance means I don’t know, suppression means I kind of didn’t know. But I, I turned away from it. And Paul said, ultimately, the reason that we’re the humanities, that is because they’re dead in sin, which means that the gospel is not what you’re going to find at the end of a logical, logical tree. The gospel is what God brings by making your heart alive again, to be able to see what’s plainly there, and what you’ve kind of known all along, at least in terms of the natural things about God, obviously, the Gospel itself is, is entirely special revelation. But anyway, that’s the gist of I think Romans one through three.

Collin Hansen
So another major theme that’s connected to this is the, the way that we substitute ourselves for God. I mean, it’s a very, we can talk about the way that that works out in our post Christendom age or age of the therapeutic or the authenticity, or we can do up all different things. But the essential aspect is we, we think that the world revolves around us. But that, of course, is exactly what Paul was talking about is what Jesus was talking about. as well. It goes back to the Garden of Eden, it’s the original sin. And you offer this prayer that exemplifies the problem, even for Christians. And sometimes we don’t even realize how much we still assume that the world revolves around us. But it’s often revealed in these heartfelt but sometimes misguided prayers. And you say this, God, this is what I need. God bless this, fix that smite him. God, you didn’t do this. So I’m mad at you. In fact, disappoint me again, and I will punish you by not believing in you. What does Paul offer in Romans as the antidote? And I’m going to throw Christians in there as well? Because I think sometimes I look at that and say, Oh, that kind of sounds like me. JD

J. D. Greear
right. Yeah, you know, I mean, it’s like I teach my kids, Colin, the, the sin is pretty easy to understand, just by looking at the middle letter. S I N is when I put myself in the middle instead of God. And you know, what Paul gets sad is that really that’s the sin behind all the other sins is that we gave glory to the creation or many places ourselves instead of the Creator and that just distorted everything that ultimately it’s a worship disorder. And you know, philosophers for years have come up with different terms, Christian philosophers on what but ultimately goes back to what a worship disorder where, where I have gotten to be in the center, rather than then God being in the center, and it really helps you begin to get your mind around. You know, us Jonathan Edwards terms, the sinfulness of sin. You know, a lot of times people really struggle with with like, you know, I mean, hell really like eternity apart from God, just for you know, a few white lies and some, you know, whatever it is that you calculate sin as and, you know, what about the virtuous person? I know several virtuous atheists who are more generous than a lot of the Christians I know what about them? How is that you know, fair, but then you what you realize is that, that ultimately this sinfulness of sin is because we have substituted ourselves at the Center for God. And that, you know that by itself is an act of such cosmological wickedness that it makes all the rest of the sins and doesn’t make them insignificant but it means that that the wickedness of that one thing of putting our fist in God’s face and saying I should be at the center, I should be in charge, I should receive worship. That’s what really that that is the sinfulness of sin again, to use a rather you know, earthy analogy in the book I compare it to, you know, imagine if a married man is brought news from a private attacker that his wife is cheating on him. And the the investigator has video clips of her walking into a hotel lobby with this man. And on the way in the man, you know, generously tips the bellhop that’s a genuinely good deed. But it’s hard for that man, to call that deed good in light of the betrayal and the wickedness. And what Paul is, is, is getting at is this is ultimately what sin is, is it’s it’s you instead of God, and everything else flows from that, but the wrath of God has revealed from heaven against that worship disorder in that blasphemy.

Collin Hansen
Another common objection, I think, especially today, how does God love us by hating our sin? Viewing God this way? I don’t think it comes naturally to us. Certainly not today. We equate love with affirmation. They’re practically synonyms in Western culture. And we certainly don’t feel accountable to any authority outside ourselves. So even the very nature of sin. So how does God love us by hating our sin?

J. D. Greear
Well, let me channel my 10th grade Sunday school teacher for a minute and say that I remember him making this profound point and it was like a mind blowing thing to me, then, and that he was right, you know, the opposite of love is not is not hate. The opposite of love is apathy. That love by its very definition includes hate in it, because if you love something you hate whatever it is, that destroys it. And it is because because not in spite of but because I love the cancer patient, that I hate the cancer that is ravaging their body. And I’m willing to take rather drastic measures, including chemotherapy, and essentially poisoning them to get rid of the cancer. It is because not in spite of but because I love my children, that I feel hatred. When I see bigotry or lying or, you know, things that I know ultimately are going to destroy their lives. I can hate those things, even as I love them. And when you think, you know, especially with as Paul lays it out, but all of the disease and dysfunction and death in The Curse of the earth ultimately goes back down to sin. How could God be loving? How could he love his own glory? How could he love us? How could he love his creation and not hate this thing that is destroying it. And so, you know, God in His love provides a way that we can escape that by offering us you know, and you know, free choice, you know, punt for a minute, all the questions of how that all happens. But he’s offering us a choice. And he’s saying this is going to be something that you choose whether or not you are going to repent and, and receive Christ. But it’s not something he’s going to force on us, you know, in that sense. And so there is a dimension in which it’s a very common objection, I hear that God, if he’s really God would be a God of wrath. And you just say that doesn’t really make sense. And you’re not thinking about love, I find, especially when I’m dealing with, like an abuse survivor. You know, saying to them, God hates the what the abuser that he hates the abuse, because He loves you to somebody that’s really suffered, that that resonates. And the only ones of us it doesn’t make sense to are those that have never really suffered or never really felt the sting of sin against us.

Collin Hansen
Yeah. Well, going back to something you said earlier, JD, you mentioned that it’s not necessarily evidence that we’re lacking, it’s our will and desire. Some people do not want the gospel to be true. They don’t deny necessarily that it’s true. deny the things that Paul might be saying here, but they don’t want it. They don’t want it to be true. They’re going to simply ignore it. How do you talk to that person? about Jesus? And he reached that person?

J. D. Greear
Yeah, great question. You know, the one of the most effective soul winners, I use my Independent Baptist pastor for minimum soul winners, one of the most effective so one has I’ve ever known said that. He said a, a true evangelists believes two things. He says, number one, that salvation belongs to God. And he said, that takes the pressure off of you because you realize until God cultivates the appetites, you know, ultimately, no matter what you say, or how persuasive you are, how cogent your analogies, it’s ultimately going to fall on And it’s the seed that perfectly good seed that falls onto the wrong soil. He said, But the second thing you got to know is that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, which means that the word of God has the power of life in and of itself. And you know, God blesses His Word. And it obviously it takes the spirit, you bring the Word to life, but the Spirit and the Word work in concert to bring life to people. So I know that when I’m talking, I often compare my own evangelism to like running a magnet across the sand. And I’m just asking questions to see where God is at work. And a lot of times I’ll discover that, but there’s sometimes I know that my role in one of these encounters is I’m testifying, I’m speaking, I’m using scripture. And I’m praying that God would use the seed of that word to lodge in their heart and awaken it, you know, to, to really make it come alive. I didn’t think of Luther again, how he described his own conversion of like, you know, all the seeds that God had planted for years, as he was studying the Bible as a monk to no effect it was bringing no spiritual life and then suddenly burst into life at once, when the Holy Spirit took the word and just made it come alive. And so I get the privilege of doing that. And you do too. I remember reading this thing years ago about how the average person who comes to Christ hears the gospel 12, complete times before they respond. And I’m like, Well, you know, if I have one of these conversations that ends awkwardly with this person expressing I’m not interested at all, I’m like, Well, I get to be one of the 12. You know, somewhere somewhere down the line somebody may get to harm is the

Collin Hansen
time to plant Yeah, hand the baton down to somebody else unknown and Pray It Forward. Yeah. I got a few questions. I’ve been talking to JD Greer here about his book essential Christianity. I’ve got a few other questions just about church and life and even what’s going on with you personally. JD, just I’m wondering what’s next for you. I mean, I’m thinking you’ve led a large church through enormous growth over the last 20 years, more than 20 years, led the Southern Baptist Convention during some of the, let’s just say, interesting times. And also for an extra year, which I’m sure you love this year. This year, you’ve published a bunch of books, your church sends out 1000s of church planters and other missionaries. We’ve written about that at the gospel coalition. What’s left man? They do next

J. D. Greear
man gala near still, and I know this is a yes, get lightheartedly, you know, there’s still 6400 unreached people groups. And, you know, I’m not really looking for a novel vision for the next 20 years. I mean, they’re really, Vision hasn’t been novel, truly, since Jesus gave the Great Commission, go make disciples who make disciples. And I really do, I’m convinced that the greatest thing, the legacy that we can leave is not a large church. It is a or a large movement or a lot of books, great thing we can leave is leaders who are equipped to raise up other leaders, I would anticipate that the next two decades of my life, you know, just turned 50 years old. So is it okay to say two decades, Lord willing two decades? Three decades? Maybe

Collin Hansen
I would? I would think so. We don’t know. But I think that’s a safe bet. Yeah. So Lord willing,

J. D. Greear
through the decades, I want it to be characterized most by leader development. And we do that obviously a lot through the church here with our summit collaborative, and raising up church planters and missionaries, but also just great, you know, organizations like gospel coalition that we get a chance to partner alongside and they influence each other and to be a part of a movement. I’m first and foremost a pastor, you know, like, I mean, at the, that’s my day job, that’s what I love doing and, and, you know, I feel like all the other stuff books so that they can all go away. And I’m still, you know, called to this, this local church. And that’s my great privilege behind of course, being a dad and a husband. So anyway, you know, it’s interesting, bring that up, I’m very effective, your listeners wouldn’t, would do me a favor, I’m actually getting ready take a few weeks of sabbatical is too strong of a word, but just a few weeks to, you know, kind of unplug. One of our other teaching pastors is going to be teaching during that time. And I’m going to try to really just sort of get away and hear from the Lord about what more specifically he wants me to lean into. And so if you hear this and you’d be willing to pray for me out, that’d be grateful.

Collin Hansen
I love that now mentioned the growth of the church, you you’ve led a medium sized church that became a mega church and you’ve kind of as a leader grown up in that church. 20 years, we’ve seen a lot of cultural change broadly. I’m wondering, JD, what’s the biggest change you’ve seen in your own leadership? Where have you Where have you matured?

J. D. Greear
Yeah, that’s a great question. I was the biggest change in my own leadership. I’m a lot less confident now than I used to be. I mean, I guess confident in some things. You realize that you know, I kind of thought it used to be that if I just put enough energy, enough time, read the right books. I can make this thing work. Now you sort of realize that there’s a there’s a sense in which Unless the Lord builds a house those who build it labor in vain. You know, call it obviously In some, I’ve seen, I’ve seen some truly amazing ideas that I’ve had at this church. I mean, like, breathtakingly amazing. I’ve seen them fall flat and go nowhere. I’ve also seen the most half baked things that I was just like, I mean, I’m like, Fine, try that. And then boom, it just like takes off. And you realize it was like the Lord is building this house. And, you know, I did I remember I’ve gone back as prep in preparation for these few weeks I was talking about, I’ve gone back and reread a lot of the books that I read when God first called me in the ministry. And one of them was is the Bible study experiencing God. And I’m not going to get into you know, everything about analyzing experience of God here. But there was one central thing in there that I took away from that has been of great fruit in my life. And that is that really, Christian ministry is figuring out what God is at work and joining him in that work, that the spirit goes first. And so that’s it’s been, you know, just I look back, and I’m like that explains these last 20. Some years, there have been places the Spirit of God invited us in. And then there’s been places that JD Greer went forward. And the Spirit ones they are still around and they’re bearing fruit. The JD Greer ones are as worthless as when the idea first came into my head.

Collin Hansen
Yeah, that’s one of the things I’m not sure. seminary students are prepared when I walk them through these case studies. But I walk them through Birmingham 1963. And I talk about a couple parodic Matic churches, 16th Street Baptist, where kings marches often originated first Baptist, which was one of the churches that was integrated by Andrew Young part of the movement. And I look at the pastors in both situations, and I talked about the profound pain, regret that they both had for their involvement in it, not because they did the wrong thing. But in part because they did the right thing. And they didn’t regret doing it. But they, in the sense of that they thought it was the wrong thing, that they should have done something differently. But they regretted at some level, something that I think is very, we don’t talk about very much for church leaders, which is that you can do the right things before God, but doesn’t work. You’re often choosing between two bad choices, or just No, I’m going to do the right thing here, but it’s not going to pay off. I just think the biggest conceit that I see in my own my own life, as well as with younger church leaders, is that we think you know what, I’m going to be smarter than everybody else, I’m going to be better a better about this, I’m not going to have the same problems that those people had previous to me. And it but it seems like maturity looks something like becoming less and less and less confident in yourself. And more curious about what the Lord is doing.

J. D. Greear
That’s right. Not well said. In fact, you know, the light, Tim Keller, who’s very important to both of us, I remember hearing him say this one time in a message and it just, it stuck with me. And I felt like it comes back to my head. I probably once a week in a different form. But he said, you know, like, think about how we think about leaders and people 100 years ago, you know, and we’re like, I can’t believe they thought this and did that and, and he just said do you really feel like 100 years from now they’re going to be looking back at JD Grier called Hanson or even Tim Keller and saying, Man, talk about a guy ahead of his time. You know, like, I mean, that’s just not gonna happen. I know, my great great grandkids is gonna be embarrassed about me and I need to embrace that and say, Lord, would you take a stumbling, often wrong, but never in doubt, leader. And we you just use this and build your church, and not even the gates of hell and of the lunacy of JD Greer will be able to, to stop it. prevent it,

Collin Hansen
man, what’s the just quick answer on this one? What’s the biggest change you’ve seen in terms of expectations of pastors during your years at the summit church?

J. D. Greear
You know, there’s a lot more suspicion of leadership, you know, used to sort of get a pass on certain things and but now, it’s just I realized that I’m speaking to people, even people that have grown up in church, just you know, there’s a, there’s just too many narratives and too many Netflix specials. And you come in from that, and some ways, not unfortunately, a lot of leaders we’ve, we’ve earned that you know, and so we have to fight that when I was a missionary and a Muslim area. They just assumed that all Christians were immoral. And I had to fight against that stereotype. Now, as a pastor, I have to fight against the idea that this is a money, sex and power thing. And that’s a that’s, that’s difficult.

Collin Hansen
Yeah, it is. And part of that is because of all sorts of like, as you said, tangible things that have happened, including among our friends. At the same time. It’s also a dramatic change in media. Yes, brought that about as well. I’m not talking about just the kind but just the the I mean, Netflix and social media and things like that they didn’t exist when you start Did ministry a big change there? Couple more questions here. I’m glad you brought up Molly, our friend Molly. She’s one of the most popular guests in the four year history of gospel bound and the Lord use you as play a major role in her coming to faith. I just wondered what would you like to add from our to our listeners or viewers here on your perspective on her story of salvation? You know,

J. D. Greear
I interviewed Molly actually, for our staff team here today is first time because I’ve been you know, we’ve both been trying to, you know, let her tell her story and her time and what is it, but she, one of the things I told our staff is she was sharing her story. Well, first of all, anytime I talk is taken away from what she’s saying. And I’m like, just you keep talking about because it does hurt

Collin Hansen
her wisdom, just as long as the mouth.

J. D. Greear
But, you know, I’m reminded, when I watch that, of like, CS Lewis said that when you’re, you’re part of a true conversion, when you are up close to him, especially if you’re part of it. He said, It’s like the experience of firing a high powered rifle, where you immediately become aware that the force coming out of the barrel is not consistent with the force she put into the trigger. And that’s kind of how it felt with her is, is she she tends to give me a lot more credit than then than I deserve on this. And I might even try to be a falsely humble guy, you know, I’m just saying, you know, I kind of was like, Okay, God is clearly at work in your life. That is obvious. I’m like the evangelist in, you know, Pilgrims Progress just randomly shows up in the middle of field, like, go that way, you know, and I’m pointing to the right directions. And it really is, I mean, Salvation belongs to God, and you realize that, you know, he just, we get the privilege of just saying, God, use me and show me where else are you at work? And we’re going to be a part of it. So,

Collin Hansen
yeah, that’d be my thought. Oh, my goodness, if anybody hasn’t watched or listened to that, go back and make sure that I’m glad so many people and, and we’ve, yeah, just what a what a joy. Last question here. JD, you were the president of the SBC, as we’ve talked about, but it’s not like you had unlimited power. So Baptists work, let’s give you the power to change anything you could in the SBC? What would you do?

J. D. Greear
Oh, man, that’s, uh, you know, I have probably a missional answer. And yeah, I have, you know, more of a probably a political answer,

Collin Hansen
I’ll get, I’ll give you I’ll give you both, you can get

J. D. Greear
good I get one of these, you know, if I, if I can make one change in the SBC, it’s what I would do with all churches is if there was some way that you could condense or mandate churches, that they have to be involved in church planning, and sending missionaries that changes the church, Rodney star at the late Ronnie, start the, you know, churches story. And he said that, if you go back and look at the explosive growth of the church in the first two or three centuries, and then consider they didn’t have any of the things that we had and Baker essential for church growth. He said he identifies a handful of things, but one of them is he says, what they did have is the understanding that every Christian was responsible to multiply and every church was responsible to plan other churches. You know, right now, there are more Southern Baptist churches in America than there are McDonald’s subway and Starbucks combined. And that blows people’s minds, but go look it up. And you’ll see it’s it just you know, if you think about the multiplying, right now, we’ve seen churches grow big and bigger churches than the apostles ever dreamed of. And at that same time period, we’re watching the amount of the percentage of Christians in church go down in America not up and so I’m not anti megachurch. Could we be clear on that? But, you know, it’s it’s not working as a way of church in America. It’s gonna take multiplications so that’d be my missional answer. My political answer is, I just feel like there’s a tendency in literally every generation to turn things besides the gospel into the central thing, you know, and that happens to good people. And it happens, you know, I mean, Southern Baptists, our defining narrative is resisting liberalism and praise God for that. I mean, praise God for those people, not my fathers and forefathers that said, you know, we’re going to stand on the inerrancy of the Bible in the exclusivity of Christ. But then there’s, there’s other love and Jesus talks about Jesus’s crucifixion was a joint project between the, you know, those on the left and those on the right. And, you know, to say, can we be like the gospel like, like the gospel coalition’s audience and like evangelicals at large, can we be a people that are defined by the gospel and not by secondary political, you know, alignments, and I’m not trying to back off there of pro life or the importance of gender and marriage I mean, yes to all that you claim that loudly but can we? Can we be different? And as a missionary people who are big on the gospel and and not build our identity and these other things, so there was a way that I could be czar and fix all that I do it but unfortunately, the most famous and least powerful person in the world is the Southern Baptist Convention president

Collin Hansen
just barely ahead of the Vice President of the United States. Basically, those are the two the two positions. Yeah, in my in my research on Tim Keller, I came across a clown his message to Westminster seminary. And he talks about how we’ve been known as the seminary of the clenched fist. But I want us to be known as the seminary of the bowed head. And he said, it’s not it’s not a bad thing that we fought vigilantly for the faith. But there are other modes of engagement as well. You can be vigilant about opposing liberalism, but you can also be fervent in prayer. And in fact, that’s, that’s our Lord Jesus. Yeah. And that’s what we see in the book of Romans as well. So JD has been it’s been fun as as expected and insightful. The book we’ve been talking about here with JD is essential Christianity, the heart of the gospel in 10 words you can pick it up from the Good Book Company wherever books are sold. JD really appreciate your time here on gospel

J. D. Greear
bound. Yeah, looking forward. I don’t know when this airs but look forward seating the gospel coalition will be wonderful.

Collin Hansen
Yeah, absolutely. We’re doing one of our one of our keynote addresses. Thanks, JD.

J. D. Greear
Don’t skip my session, everybody.