Talking About Race

Collin Hansen

If you swear that you never tense up when talking about race, I know at least one of two things is true. You’ve never actually talked with anyone about race, or you’re not an American. If you talk about race with any regularity, you have the scars to show for it. Isaac Adams dares where angels fear to tread. In his new book, talking about race gospel hope for hard conversations published by Zondervan reflective. Isaac argues that if we could just hold our beliefs, and also our tongues, loving across racial lines in the American church could become one of the most powerful testimonies to a divided and dividing world as it serves as lead pastor of Iron City Church in Birmingham, Alabama. Before moving south, he served on the pastoral staff of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, DC. You can also check him out as founder of United we pray. I love his motivation for this book, he writes this, quote, we want to raise a generation of children who are not afraid to confront the struggles of racism in our country, head on, and quote, you’ll find a wonderful biblical balance in talking about race, as it knows when to step on toes and when to bandage skinned knees, he has the shepherd’s touch to someone who refuses to see racism today, he argues, even though we did not participate directly in acts of the past, we are in no way freed from living in their shadow. And to the person who can’t see any progress in fighting racism today, he cautions that what’s happening nationally isn’t necessarily happening locally. In other words, be careful not to blame your church for what a different church has said or done. You’ll alternate between writing Ouch. And a man in the margins of this book talking about race. Isaac joins me on gospel bound to explain blocking race as a Velcro issue, abortion, cultural preferences, and the mission of the church is that all among other topics, Isaac, thanks for joining me on gospel bound.

Isaac Adams

Hey, brother, it’s really good to be here with you, man. Thank you for having me.

Collin Hansen

Alright, let’s start off the bad Isaac, why even talk about race isn’t focusing on race and especially the past? Isn’t it exactly the problem with too much of the church today?

Isaac Adams

Yes, some would say so. But, you know, it’s interesting call and doing this book, this book is really in some sense, a theology of speech applied to the issue of race. And the Bible has so much to say about our speech, it talks so much about our talking and what that’s indicative of and what it reflects, and how powerful words are. And while some folks would be tempted to say, hey, we, you know, focusing on this issue is, you know, creating the problem. Well, the Bible also calls us to do justice, to love mercy, to walk humbly with God. And Christians want to be just any Christian whether wherever they fall in this issue, they want to be just and given that this is one of the largest areas and kind of sectors, that injustice has a bounded within our country historically. It makes sense that there’s a lot of work to do. And so long as we have work and to do in that regard, we have a conversation to take up.

Collin Hansen

And one of the things that you wrote in here that I had had marked, you said Could it be the reason many Christians believe racism to be dead, is because we have little to no interaction with the community is on which it has taken its toll. One of the reasons that stood out to me is because I can relate to that in terms of where I live and where I’ve lived. And of that, that issue of proximity. When you are proximate. Obviously, when you experience it yourself that racism or when you’re proximate to it, and it you certainly get a different perspective on it. And why did you choose Isaac to frame the book around a kind of modern parable of race in the American church today? Just explain a little bit of the unique approach that you decided to take. Was that always your plan with the book?

Isaac Adams

No, it wasn’t. It was helpful that it was actually I remember, it was the bat and I was talking to him and not even about this book, specifically, because I’ve been noodling on the idea for a long time, about a book on race over the years. And I was kind of fleshing out ideas like and I was using some kind of label of like, you know, this person is, let’s just say conservative or whatever you’d like don’t do don’t use labels like that. They’re broad and unclear. He was like, you know, say this is, you know, this is Mike, and this is Mark, and here’s Mike and mark. And so I wrote an article using that kind of framework and articles seem to do pretty well. So I said, you know, there is something to story that’s just inescapably powerful and relatable. And you know, there’s a reason Jesus told so many of them. There’s a reason in Second Samuel 12. Nathan approaches David with this story. And David is all in before he realizes he’s the main care. He’s the, he’s the villain in the story. And you know, or we, you know, we can talk about Isabel Wilkerson’s Warmth of Other Suns this tome, and yet it’s so captivating because she tells it through the through the lens of story.

Isaac Adams

So it’s funny when I sent when I wrote the draft of the book, and send it to, you know, people who agree with me and people who don’t agree with me. You know, I thought it was kind of the second half of the book, the didactic stuff that like that was kind of the, the goods, right? And people were like, yeah, that’s all well and good. It’s that story, that that’s where you got me and I, and I hope calling in the story, what it allows me to do, you can say, a lot in a short amount of fiction that you just can’t write, and kind of nonfiction without taking a lot of a lot of words. And what the story allows me to do is to represent a lot of different experiences and say things that I don’t necessarily believe or own, but that someone does. And so the story allowed me to accomplish that and really just, and really, hopefully paint you in the book, paint others in the book, in a way that I just couldn’t figure out how to get there without a story.

Collin Hansen

Yeah, I think that approach is one reason why one of the best ways to describe the book would be pastoral. Because it doesn’t sound like a debate on Twitter. Yeah, it doesn’t sound like a debate on cable news. It sounds like every single church I know right now. I mean, the people are people that I know, the conversations or conversations that I’m having, they’re my family members. They’re my friends. They’re me. Right? And I assume that’s what you were you were going for, but it means that it gives the the book just gives the book a very different perspective than most of what’s being written right now. On race. Do you think that’s a fair description? I mean, I don’t I think other kinds of books are good, but that this seems to be how it’s different in the landscape of what’s been published lately.

Isaac Adams

Yeah, I mean, what I’m trying to primarily contribute here is a pastoral word for the moment. So the, the race conversation has many prophets. And for that, I’m thankful, you know, some are certainly gonna be better than others. And you know, even pastors are to speak prophetically at times, but I fear, we’ve reduced the prophetic task merely to confrontation, and condemnation, when the prophets also gave the people hope. So Ezra, five, two, it says, The prophets were with the people of God, supporting them in their work. And so, you know, I say in the book, I’m trying to write to you as a pastor, and second, Timothy 224, couldn’t be clearer.

Isaac Adams

The Lord servant must be kind to everyone. And there’s no asterik on that everyone, you know, it’s not everyone who happens to agree with you, or share your ideological perspective, or your political party, but everyone, and so I’m trying to write to people as if they’re my friend and not my enemy, and that’s, yeah, probably the unique kind of perspective you’re seeing. What you’re getting is an extended pastoral counseling session, through what folks broadly call the race conversation.

Collin Hansen

Yeah, yeah, modern parable was one way to talk about it. I think another way to look at it would be as a case study, for anybody who’s doing education, you know, the value of a case study, and that’s what this this feels like. And, and you could really set that up as something to be used in small group context, in an educational context as a way of saying, Okay, if you were the and you set up the questions at the end of each chapter this way, if you were the pastor, what would you say? In this case? Or if you were the friend or you’re a counselor or something like that, what would you say? I like the way you put this you describe race as a Velcro issue. Explain what you mean.

Isaac Adams

Yeah. I often when I when I teach on race house, when I talk about you know, race and racism, these are often velcro issues and that so many things aspects of life, stick to them. Economics, housing, education, food distribution, culture, you know, everything down to how we dress, how we speak, so many things. And this is part of the reason it’s so hard to talk about. One of the central issue questions I’m trying to answer in this book, but maybe I would say be central question is why is it so hard to talk about race? I think that question is as important, as it is obvious as it is ignored. And if we just thought about that question, we would actually be better equipped to run the race, the Marathon of racial justice that we rightly want to run.

Isaac Adams

So I’m definitely not saying talk for talking sake. I’m simply saying, Hey, if you actually think about the marathon, before, you know, trying to go and run 26.2 miles, you’ll actually last longer. Because a lot of us we want. So many of us want to maintain unity, figure out these issues do justice, I think that’s great. But you can’t even have a productive conversation with that person you dread seeing it Thanksgiving, much less on Sunday morning. So maybe if you start here, it’ll actually equip you to run better. But anyway, back to your original question.

Collin Hansen

Well, the velcro one i

Isaac Adams

Yeah, it’s it’s hard, because so many aspects of life, stick to these issues. And you see, how pervasive rate thinking on race was, whether it be in the mind of the realtor, or whether it be in the mind, of the people, it was just deeply, it was deep in the American psyche. It’s just it’s a part of how you see all of life, which makes it really hard to untangle.

Collin Hansen

Yeah. Well, that’s, and you and I, of course, have have a couple times gone around our, our home city here at Birmingham, and, and, of course, if you were going to take one issue, that would be definitive, it would be race in describing the dynamics of our city and its history. That’s right. But as we’ve talked about, and as we’ve seen, immediately, you’re having a conversation about economics. You’re having a conversation about education, policy, even a conversation about the family having a conversation about ecclesiology you’re having a conversation about theology, anthropology, I just, I will be using that perspective as a Velcro issue. And no wonder it becomes so complicated. One, one reason one thing I also like about the book by was a little bit upset at you with is that you don’t give it you don’t give us a conclusion. of the characters like you they don’t wrap up.

Isaac Adams

And one thing I put on before you disparage me to one conclusion, that’s true. The narrative is you’ve always taught me it’s true. History is always more important than the stories we tell our history is always more interesting. In short, all about it. Yeah.

Collin Hansen

Well, I It’s almost It almost reminds me I don’t know, you know, you’re younger and everything. But I don’t know if you ever had those choose your own adventure stories. Yeah. And that’s kind of what it felt like is in this book is okay. Now, how do you think it concludes here? Like, who do you think, who who gives ground who has new perspective? Who recognizes their responsibility? Who escalates things? And that did feel I mean, I really wanted you to give me the happy ending. But it’s kind of like we talked about with Birmingham, sometimes there just aren’t happy endings. And doesn’t mean they’re, I mean, there is one in the kingdom of God. But I just I thought that was an interesting approach. Did you think about playing it out and saying, Oh, yes, this guy sees the light, and he changes his views. And did you think about doing that? Were you always thinking No, no, I’m gonna leave him hanging a little bit.

Isaac Adams

Yeah, I thought about it. A couple. I mean, there’s a couple, maybe just more honest. answers. One is the longest book I’ve ever written. So I was just worried about length period. So you know, if editors are listening, I hope they appreciate that. Number two, I don’t know that I’m skilled enough of a rider to pull it off. But more really, I did think about it. Um, but here’s the deal. It’s exactly what you said, in a fallen world. There’s not always happy endings. And I’d like what I’m trying to push people to do in this book is think about the issue.

Isaac Adams

So I don’t want to just spoon feed everything. And I don’t want to paint you know, everyone repents and they all sing Kumbaya on the end. Is something people repenting, you have some people backsliding, and I hope people can fill in the story for themselves of saying like, it’s kind of like, Hey, I’m turning it over to you, reader. Go and do likewise. Like you you’ve seen yourself in the story. Now how do you want your story to end as it regardless conversation? Do you want to leave your church and super divisive way? Do you want to confront folks you need to confront

Isaac Adams

Do you want to remain silent? Silent. I mean, these are all options before us. And, and maybe one reason calling, I didn’t just conclude it is because a right conclusion adjust conclusion may look different for different folks. Right? And so I can’t just say, hey, you know, go and be like darious and leave, leave or stay at your church, right? It’s like, for some people, that’s the right call for some people the wrong call. And that’s the kind of nuance I think we have to appreciate in this conversation. And if we did, we’d be slower to attack one another on Twitter, and divide in such a way that pleases Satan.

Collin Hansen

Well, I’m glad you brought up that example, that is a very good illustration of the pastoral dimensions of this book, and of how many different people from many different backgrounds can read the book. And so one of the things you dive into there is conversation about African Americans and among African Americans about whether or not they should stay in predominantly white churches. And you talk about the level of judgment and acrimony that is attached to that. And so, I mean, you’re trained as a journalist, I’m a journalist.

Collin Hansen

And so we know that the way you get attention in journalism and in commentary is by universalizing issues by saying this is what everybody is doing right now. This is the black exodus from the EV angelical. Church. Everybody pay attention. And it all has this specific cause? Well, there is clearly a trend, nobody would deny that there’s a trend. But just because there’s a trend doesn’t mean that that’s the pastoral situation that you encounter in your church. That’s right. Is that a fair assessment of what you were trying to do?

Isaac Adams

Yeah, I mean, like in you raise that question. I, I, hopefully, one reason the book would be helpful Collins because I just tried to answer the questions. People are asking me as a pastor, and that people are actually asking, and should I stay at my predominantly white church is one of them. And my answer, it may be frustrating is maybe, right, maybe, maybe, let’s think through some questions, you know, is your church more devoted to a political party than to the gospel of Jesus Christ? Okay. That’s something important to think of how has God wired you individually as a person, that’s something important to think of?

Isaac Adams

Are you bearing with your church’s sins as they are bearing with yours? That’s something important to think about. And so, yeah, I’m trying to show people that and in that column, I’m not I’m trying to also highlight there’s more than one conversation going on. It’s not just blacks and whites. It’s not just Asia, it’s not just, you know, Koreans and Chinese. It’s not just there’s intra ethnic conversations going on. And so yeah, I try to look at that conversation to say, hey, if the only options for let’s just take the one question we were talking about, should I stay at my predominately white church, if the only options are, if I leave, I’m a theological liberal. And if I stay up, and Uncle Tom, I want no part of that deal. T

Isaac Adams

hat sounds like the devil’s deal. And I think that, sadly, what’s being reflected more largely in these kind of universal conversations? And I think that’s why we need to think about how we’re speaking because we don’t realize it, but we’re unwittingly binding people’s consciences right, what they should do, where the Scripture doesn’t have, have them do. I mean, look at Lemuel Haynes in a much different racial context, up in Vermont, pastoring, a white church. I mean, this is just, this is what the Lord, I’m preaching Jonah, right now, the Lord may actually very well call you to your enemies, just as Christ was called, you know, while we were still were enemies of Christ, he was called to his enemy, so, but the Christ like option for someone else might be to leave and be like, Yeah, this is a nick Gabbard situation, this is not a healthy place to be. And so we need to extend charity, we need to let people make decisions between them and Lord, but all of that takes patience. And Twitter does not thrive on patients retweets do not thrive on nuance, right? And so Satan is and that’s why Proverbs is so clear. Whoever makes haste with his feet, and this is his way and Twitter thrives on haste.

Collin Hansen

Yeah, let me continue on that point. In the book, you talk about preferences, and we know that it is necessary for a good and godly and healthy church for people to lay down their preferences. I mean, we get that that’s just an important thing in a church where personal preferences predominate. You have a host of problems, we get that. And at the same time, we also know that certain preferences are necessary for order.

Collin Hansen

Yes, you have your preferences on music, and I have my preferences on music and who knows who else is going to walk in The door with references on music, and you have somebodies preferences have to predominate in that same for the sake of order. And in some cases, certain preferences, cultural preferences may even be celebrated as a church’s unique culture without any kind of problem. Okay, because we’re all embedded in a culture, but that all together Isaac and explain how do you distinguish between the two kinds of preferences? The ones that you just have to lay down? And those that you’re saying no, there’s actually necessary or might even be great to celebrate?

Isaac Adams

Yeah, that’s Oh, man. That’s a that’s a good and a tough question without a clear answer about I mean, they’re certainly what we’re basically getting at is, look, First Corinthians 14 makes really clear, there needs to be order. On some level, your church will have a sound, regardless of what you think like, and if you’re like, oh, we should have country week, one week and traditional one week and contemporary, well, you’re actually elevating the preferences over the content of the song, which I pray through all the styles is Jesus Christ. And so the church should be a training school and dying to self in teaching me how to die to self.

Isaac Adams

And this is why the kind of consumeristic mindset is so dangerous, if you approach church, thinking, it needs to scratch every one of my you know, every part of my back, well, you’re approaching church, thinking about yourself primarily when you should be thinking about the Lord Jesus primarily, then your neighbor secondarily, and then you write, and that’s not to say, I’m not encouraging, you know, so go to a church where you hate everything. And that’s just it. I mean, you know, let’s, as a pastor call and I’m, I’m probably asking the question more of like, okay, life is short on this side of this under the sun, your talent, you might have a poor reason for leaving your church, but you really think you can love Jesus in that church over there with better music. And I’ve tried to, like, kind of challenge you on that and be like, Hey, sister, Hey, brother, I don’t think that’s the best reason.

Isaac Adams

But hey, in your heart of hearts, you’re convinced I will love Jesus better. If I can sing in this particular style that I grew up with, or whatever it may be. And I’m like, go love Jesus better over there. Right. So like, so that’s where I’m like, what I’m trying to do their calling is be like, we’re in deeply gray waters. And so when we’re at we’re answering this question, how do we turn determine which are, you know, just cultural things that we are unnecessarily wed to or unwittingly or unconsciously wed to? I think what we want to do is think about one our discipleship to Jesus, but to is this making my neighbor stumble on, you know, and that’s what Paul’s getting at. And Romans 14, like, hey, it’s might be a part of your culture. And like, I think it’s straight, but your neighbors stumbling. And so if this is truly making our neighbor stumble, especially those in the minority of the church, we really want to think through that. Because it could be X six shows us actually, why is it all these type of widows who are overlooked in the food distribution? That’s not just cultural? Like, that’s not just like a cultural happenstance. There’s actual cultural prejudice being wrapped up in that, that we need to look down?

Collin Hansen

Yeah. Well, let me give an example and maybe follow through and go a little bit deeper on this one. Yeah, one of the reasons this comes up, of course, is because a predominantly white church may have a desire to become more multi ethnic, but it may be hard for simple preference reasons for African Americans to participate in that church. And yet, if they were to complain about that, in some right ways, one of the responses may be, well, I’m sorry. But if you’re mature in Christ, you’re going to lay down those preferences.

Collin Hansen

And basically, that becomes simply assimilation. And yet, at the same time, we know African American churches, prominent Afro American churches have their own cultural preferences that are very distinct and something that’s celebrated in may different ways. So let me ask this question. And I understand it’s probably not going to have a definitive answer, which is part of what I’m trying to illustrate here. But would you recommend for whites who care about all the issues that you’re talking about in this book, to seek to integrate historically black churches?

Isaac Adams

Well, let me clarify the question, do you mean by integrate, do you mean they come to us, we leave our church and go to them. What do you mean on that? Yeah,

Collin Hansen

On of the things that I’ve that occurs to me often, yeah, is, is a statistical study that Joe Carter did for the gospel coalition years ago, which was looking at the ethnic makeup of American denominations, and it’s very clear that the least ethnically diverse denominations are the historically black ones. And when you simply do the math, what you realize lies is that there’s really not a way for the predominantly white denominations to become more ethnically diverse without people leaving the historically black denominations. Which creates a problem. We can see pretty obviously there that that’s not it runs into the previous problem. So the question comes back of and you raise this in the book, should there be a situation where more whites should be willing to lay down some of their cultural preferences and attend historically black churches? Should we be having more conversations about things going that direction? On the multi ethnic church conversation?

Isaac Adams

Yeah, that’s helpful, man. Um, yeah, no answer that question, I think yes. To that second question. We should be because there’s a couple. There’s a couple of things going on here. Number one, I often find that predominately white churches with the best of intentions want to be more diverse, but it often equates to diversity on our terms, meaning, right, we want y’all to come to us. And black people have been doing that for a long time. Right? And so it can’t just be, you know, I want I want to encourage the white pastor not just to think about how do I make my church more diverse? But actually, how do I equip some of my people to go out and be ministers of reconciliation, and actually, you white brother, you, white sister, are going to be in the minority. And you’re going to see what that’s like. And I know like when I when I teach on this, folks, often, you know, they’re like, Well, I don’t want to be a colonizer. I don’t want to miss a gentrify Archer.

Isaac Adams

Yeah, I don’t want to be a gentrified, and I’m like, Look, all of the black churches I know, have welcomed people with open arms, and that culture so strong in my church, you’re one presence is not relaxing. And so, and I think that’s a really healthy thing. You know, I remember, marked ever once challenging people, you know, so I tell people, when I teach this, I’m not telling you why pastor kick all your white people at your church. But I remember Mark once saying, you know, Hey, are you driving past? I can’t remember this is a sermon or something. Are you driving past a faithful black congregation to come to this one? And why? Now, what Mark has modeled in that is he hasn’t told anyone what to do. He’s simply asked a question.

Isaac Adams

What I’m trying to do in the book is ask a lot of questions. And so you know, it happens, you know, oh, you know, Mark builds lots of relationships with lots of pastors he’s teaching at this other local black congregation invites him to come do some workshops, he’s teaching, and he looks up and he sees some of his old church members. And he’s like, What are you guys doing here? And they’re like, well, well, you said, like, we we actually, we thought about it. We’re like, we’ve been driving past this church is actually a really faithful sound church. I don’t mean that as like, they’re surprised by that. But it’s just, this is a wonderful church. So we come here now. And I thought that was just a wonderful little parable of like, hey, this can’t work. Because we do truly have Christ in common. And I find lots of black churches are happy to hold that banner up high. Does that get it? Your question? No, it absolutely

Collin Hansen

answers the question. It’s exactly what I was looking for. And then we can also add yet another complication or pastoral dimension here, that even when you have the best of intentions, and with everything you said, right there, sometimes there remains significant theological differences. And sometimes those significant theological differences cannot be bridged, no matter what hopes you have for racial reconciliation.

Isaac Adams

So that is a comment on that real quickly. That’s why I say you have to be careful, you have to guard against and especially pastor of what I would say is idolizing diversity. So it’s possible to idolize Unity, we never want to rock the boat. We just declare peace when there is no peace. It’s also you can also and that’s what I think happens is folks start hiring with all this theological diversity where it’s like, and that just blows up and becomes a mess. And that’s why, you know, I think I thought at first heard it from Piper. And I know Shai says it to like, Hell is diverse too.

Isaac Adams

We must remember this because people are like, we want our church to look like heaven. It’s always it’s super diverse. Well, yes, but how is diverse too, so there’s not diversity can’t be the only factor. And what what’s more on that is when we’re only thinking terms of diverse diversity, we’re only thinking in terms of superficial change. Now, with that can be actual change within a church. If a church is really diverse, there’s probably actually a lot of good things happening there. But just because you have a college brochure does not mean like with you know, picture perfect diversity does not mean you have sound doctrine, doesn’t mean even those people actually love each other. You know, people will say, Oh, look at Alabama football, they can do that they can attract a diverse crowd, right and You know, I’m picking on them. And I’m like, Yeah, have you ever been to a game? Right? I’ve been to T Town. And have you ever been at a game when someone spills their drink on each other? Those people don’t love each other.

Collin Hansen

So that like we’re seeing it with my own two eyes.

Isaac Adams

We’re trying to do something deeper than college broach, sure diversity. And I’d actually have I’d take any day, the predominantly white congregation who actually thinks deeply about these issues, is actually doing justice in their individual lives. You know, this one’s a teacher, this one’s adopting kids. This one’s a lawyer advocate, versus Hey, black people just come to us. So we feel better about ourselves. You see, there’s deeper levels, they’re like they’re saying,

Collin Hansen

And what good if, if that racial diversity? Is everybody being the same age and holding all the same political views? Right. I mean, there’s, there’s different, there’s different kinds of diversity there as well. That’s one of the things I’ve I’ve said is that sometimes you’re in a situation as a predominately white church. Realistically, there isn’t much you can do. There are a lot of reasons why it would be very difficult to make a change. And so you have to consider are there other things we could do? That could take us down this path of seeing the gospel of Jesus Christ high and lifted up in a way that would still make the world take notice? versus kind of the general principle of what you’re talking about there? Of? Are you diverse, like heaven? Well, yes, Heaven will be diverse in many, many, many different ways. And because of America’s history, the racial issue is especially important.

Collin Hansen

We need to be prioritizing that. But I also find that if you’re a white congregation, and you want to grow more racially diverse, it’s probably going to be hard to do that. If you don’t currently have any political diversity in your church. Or if you have, if you have no class diversity in your church, it’s kind of like the velcro issue that you’re talking about that and when you’re talking about race, you’re actually talking about many different things. And that shouldn’t discourage you, but it should make you want to get Isaac’s book and get some help. I got a couple. I got a couple. A couple more questions here. Isaac, what about the mission of the church? You know, that’s something that your friends at nine marks and Capitol Hill Baptist Church are very, you know, famous for, for promoting and being vigilant about? Why isn’t talking about race, a distraction from the gospel, which we would have certainly acknowledged ought to be the church’s top. And I guess here’s where the question comes in exclusive priority?

Isaac Adams

Yes, a great question. Well, I think one one reason I bring up the mission of the church in the book is simply to recognize that and I’m again, I’m writing as a pastor and really trying to do a lot of service for pastors that to call let’s just call them to congregants to parishioners might be arguing about a racial issue, not realizing they have very different ideas of what the mission of the church is, one thinks it’s to make disciples and other things, it’s to lift up the downtrodden and marginalized. Now, right, there is a perfect illustration, both of those things are good things. Both of those things are what Christians should be about in some sense. But though, with those different starting points, we’re going to have very different ideas of like, Hey, what the church should do. So if I think the church should do X, I’m like, well, then the whole church should be in this March. Right? And why aren’t you doing this March? Don’t you care about this issue? Don’t you love these people? Didn’t Christ come to die for the week? And they oppressed and things like that? And so, um, yeah, and so that’s really important to think about of the mission of the church, it will just bring up those natural tensions,

Collin Hansen

or if you, or if you realize that the that the latter is necessary for the former. In other words, yes, to be a disciple means to care about the weak and the doubt. So you’re making disciples, you’re not just teaching people how to have quiet times and how to share the gospel. You’re also teaching them how to care about the things that the Christ cares about. I thought this was a good observation from you, you wrote this, for the evangelical is something is not essential for salvation. It’s often regarded as unimportant. And there’s this kind of all or nothing approach. And one of the things that I appreciate about that perspective is that’s not just about race, that’s also about baptism.

Collin Hansen

Something else that’s really important, but it’s not essential for salvation. So that’s a broad principle that is not just about race, but a number of other things. We care about what God cares about, which may be supremely that good news of his Son, Jesus Christ. but includes many other things that he’s commanded us to do and to teach others to do likewise. I’m going to do rapid fire on these two questions, because I promised them in the introduction, and I don’t want to skip them.

Isaac Adams

Right? And let me see, let me just let me just die. The last things we talked about, because you brought up that time, kind of common retort, well, shouldn’t the church just be preaching the gospel is something and I think the church should be declared course declaring the gospel, and teaching people to obey all that Christ has commanded, which includes love, mercy, justice, the weightier matters of the law. And so that’s exactly why if we only regard the things of ultimate importance to be the things of only important the only important things, salvation decisions, well, then yeah, we’re not I don’t think being faithful to all the Christ has called us to do so we want to think we want to answer that question, what is the mission? Because if the mission is to make faithful disciples and not just decisions, well, that is going to trickle down to this conversation, I hope, because we see Jesus even dealing with the cultural and ethnic dynamics in his day and try to be faithful with that. Okay, rapid, right.

Collin Hansen

No, I love that. Okay, rapid fire, what’s blocking.

Isaac Adams

So I talked about blocking in football is when you when you lock an opponent so that your teammate can run with the football, or run with the court pass, or whatever it may be. And so what I talked about is, hey, predominately white churches, if you have a minority who’s actually trying to do good work on this issue, you you know, people are often asking me, like, what would you have me do, I’m like, go confront the people who look like you and you actually take the hits, so that that person can actually speak, because I fear sometimes it’s, Hey, we want to bring in this minority, and we’ll let him take all the hits, for saying really hard things. And you know, where it’s like, no, you’re actually in the game. And if you actually make space for him, or her, they can run with the football have a different racial perspective. But they can’t do that if they’re getting tackled on the on the one yard line, every play, because, as I said, and remember the times I ain’t got no blocking.

Collin Hansen

If if you don’t block, and you are predominantly white church, and you bring African Americans in, you better hope that they’re all Patrick mahomes. And can make magic because otherwise, they’re just going to get sacked. And all of you are going to be upset, and it’s not gonna go well for them.

Isaac Adams

Well, and I actually think that’s a useful I know, this is rapid fire. But I think that’s a useful, a useful metaphor calling. Because black people are not super people. We’re just Pete, right? We can’t Yeah. Patrick mahomes does what he does, because he’s this unique individual, but we’re actually just image bearers like the rest of y’all and need the same kind of consideration. And it’s that weird thought. I mean, that’s the hit so much the history of racial racist thinking is thinking black people are in this unique category, whether it be superior or inferior.

Collin Hansen

Right. Okay. rapidfire. Again, one thing you could you’ve got the power to change this one thing that you could change on how the abortion and racial justice issues have been dichotomized and sort of pitted against each other was one thing you could you could change.

Isaac Adams

I would change people’s assumption that the two issues are not interconnected. Okay. And I would, I would well, actually, let me play it more clearly. I would, if I could change anything in that regard. I would encourage people to see how that in so many senses is a focal point of the racial issue of our day. Yeah. And so when people are talking about, you know, why are we still talking about this? Hasn’t this gone away? No, it’s just been pushed into those neighborhoods that you’d never want to drive through. And it’s killing. You know, I’m, again, I’m looking at Jonah. People who don’t know their left hand for their right hand.

Isaac Adams

And it’s ironic because it’s it, you would think it’s that side that’s always cheering for abortion, or cheering against it to be clear, and working against it. And yet, what I say in the book is I fear that if we don’t understand the racial justice implications of the abortion conversation we’re not seeing is we’re not seeing reality and all its terror. And I say on the flip side, if we if we’re all for racial justice, but we don’t see how abortion is the touches upon that we’re not seeing reality and all of its tear and all of its tear because abortion is also a Velcro issue and we’re talking about I’m not saying it justifies any kind of decision to be clear, but we are talking about different circumstances in which we need to think about which create desperation and again, don’t make anyone sin, but certainly need to be thought through.

Collin Hansen

Alright, I’ve got a final three but one on the All this has been personal. But one last question on the personal side is became lead pastor of a church in downtown Birmingham, Alabama. A city known for its at least its history of racial strife. You’re not from Birmingham? Why did you move there? And what do you hope God will do?

Isaac Adams

There’s a reason to pick Jonah first to preach.

Collin Hansen

And of course, I’m pretty sure everybody knows we’re both recording this from Birmingham right

Isaac Adams

now. Yeah, right. We’re in Birmingham. Um, you know, man, when I first it’s been a long journey here. And when it first came up years ago, when I was first asked to come down, I said, No. I said, why? You know, on one hand, I truly thought I needed to grow more as a pastor under the tutelage I was in I was like, Look, I just need to grow more. But beyond that was like why the world will ever move to Alabama? Why who would do that in their right mind and I and to put it you know, more seriously, I remember talking to my mom about it. My mom is my favorite. I love Spurgeon. Love Grimm key love Devere. My mom is my favorite theologian was reading period and paperback before they were cool. You know? And just, I remember talking to her, and she’s godless woman. I know, my favorite black history professor. And I said, Hey, Mom, I think I found this church. And she was like, that’s great.

Isaac Adams

That’s wonderful. And my mom is super meek, too. So this was very unlike her. I said, it’s in Birmingham, and she went, Oh, Isaac. I told the Lord I would never step foot in that city after they blew up those four little girls. And my mom’s old enough she could have been one of those girls right? And so um, that actually in a weird way, I hope not in a kind of martyr you know, superhero complex or martyr complex, actually encouraged me to be like, there is still gospel reconciling work to be done in that city. And if you’re not me praise gonna have a home in any city. Makes sense for it to be Birmingham, Alabama. So let’s just go and offer people the bread of the gospel. We don’t have much we don’t many tricks up our sleeve at all, but we have the gospel of Jesus Christ. And let’s see if we can’t give this a serious swing at painting, painting a picture of what the good news of Jesus can do.

Collin Hansen

Love that answer. Been talking here with Isaac Adams, lead pastor of Iron City Church, Birmingham, Alabama, and talking about his new book talking about race, gospel, hope for hard conversations new from Zondervan reflective, do have a final three, Isaac will do quick on these as well. How do you find a comb in the storm?

Isaac Adams

By turning my eyes upon Jesus, first and foremost, you know, that’s, I’m happy to have written this book. But I when I wake up, I try to spend time with Jesus. That was one of the one of my favorite ministry quotes, just talks about the difficulties of ministry and says Peter, when he took his eyes off the Savior and focused on the winds began to sink. Likewise, if we take our eyes off the Savior, we will too. So when I tried to make a lot of time for Jesus.

Collin Hansen

What do you find? Good news today.

Isaac Adams

Man, where do I find good news today? Cool. I mean, just in terms of the conversation, we’re happening now, we’re having now I do want to be clear that progress has been made and to deny that is to rob God of glory. And so man, I find it in lots of places. But ultimately find it and call in the fact that you and I can have this conversation and that the tide is, is changing. And God never promised to be fixed in our lifetimes. So we’ll just do the best we can to get the get some blocking, get the football down the field, a couple more yards. You know, when

Collin Hansen

it’s going part of why I was thinking so much or I started off thinking about what about our kids? What will we hand off in the Church in Birmingham, Alabama, we hand off to our kids and and like he said, I don’t I don’t think it’s a messiah or a martyr complex, but some hopefully born of hope to say I don’t want to hand off to them the same thing that was handed to us. But also the previous generation didn’t hand off the same thing. Praise be to God in the same ways, there has been real progress. And so yeah, it’s it’s that already not yet dynamic of the kingdom. That’s also true of history. So last question. What’s the last great book you’ve read?

Isaac Adams

Oh, man, the last great book I’ve read. It’s kind of

Collin Hansen

the first one that comes to mind outside of the Bible.

Isaac Adams

Yes. I mean, right now, I would say, Man, having moved to Birmingham, I’m still reading it is the thing, but Tanner Cobis some of my best friends are black is just I mean, if you want to understand what velcro what I mean by Velcro, yeah, yeah. I mean, that thing is incisive. I mean, it’s just surgical. And so that thing is just, I’m still reading it. And I kind of he’s, he’s writing about the neighborhood I live in. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s haunting. And so that book is poof. Yeah.

Collin Hansen

Yeah. Well, you know, which is a good example of, of a book where you you realize history is worse than you thought. Yes. And but then you also but then you you look, and I’ll you know, spoiler alert, you get to the end, and you realize wait, but actually was progress. You know, thankfully, I mean, he doesn’t leave it in a completely. It’s not a Christian book. Of course, we should, we should clarify. He doesn’t leave it in a completely hopeless place. And the impetus for the entire book was President Obama’s election in 2008. And so kind of starts with that moment of hope, and any projects back to say, Huh, and thinks about kind of strange life growing up in the stevia hills, Alabama. Well, he

Isaac Adams

asked us this question that was I just, I mean, and he’s just a fantastic writer, too. So like, I’m looking at it just as a writer being like, Man, how do you Turk, like, the movements through the through the pros is so powerful, but he asked this question, he looks at Obama’s election, and he realizes he doesn’t have any black friends. And he’s like, he’s so excited to vote for neighbors. And he’s saying, Why is it easier to vote for a black man to be president than it is to have a beer with a black man? And I just thought that question opens up a world of racial and neighborhood dynamics and history and yeah, sorry, this is

Collin Hansen

no, that’s good. And Isaac Adams, check out his new book talking about race, gospel hope for hard conversations. Isaac, the only thing I wish is that the book had been written two years ago, but praise be to God in His good in his good timing and his providential purposes. It’s out now hope people check it out. Thanks, Isaac.

Isaac Adams

Thank you for having me, brother.