Unexpected Pathways to Faith

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Collin Hansen
You probably consider yourself a Christian, especially if you’re listening to this gospel bound podcast or watching us on YouTube. But I can bet that you have questions about Christianity. You might even doubt aspects of Christianity. If not Well, I’m almost certain that you know someone who does, then maybe you want to share this podcast episode with them. Whether you’ve believed for as long as you can remember, you’re doubting right now. It can actually be comforting to know that the faith journey rarely looks simple. The journey is full of twists and turns, politics, sexuality, family and religious experience. They all push us to and fro especially in the critical years of maturation in adolescence and early adulthood. over 40 years, Randy Newman has heard hundreds of stories about people coming to faith. He brings that experience to bear in his new book, questioning faith, indirect journeys of belief through terrains of doubt, published by crossway with the gospel coalition, Randy is senior fellow for apologetics and evangelism at the CS Lewis Institute. And he was formerly on staff with crew ministering in and near Washington, DC. And he joins me now and gospel bound to discuss motives, plausibility, certainty, and doubt among other topics, Randy, it’s good to see you again. Thanks for joining me.

Randy Newman
It’s good to be with you. Thanks so much. And Randy, you write in

Collin Hansen
this book that people approach faith with many motives, not just one. Let me give you a test case, I saw some debate among evangelists after a recent high profile conversion. They said that this convert should have converted, converted only for sheer love of Jesus in response to the gospel. But what she’d actually said was that she said concern for the decline and eclipse of Western civilization. I’m wondering wouldn’t many motives of coming to faith potentially conflict with exclusive focus on the gospel and God?

Randy Newman
Wow. Well, that would. That’s an interesting thing. She should convert only for how did you word it again, I’m sorry, only for sheer love.

Collin Hansen
Yeah, essentially, that we can only be considering in the response to the gospel, the gospel itself, not necessarily any other motivations that might have gotten us there. So the fact that she was saying, Hey, I’m becoming a Christian, in part, maybe even in large part, because I’m concerned about the state of Western civilization. And I’ve come to realize that Christianity is the only hope of civilization. Is that a problem? Or is that what you’re talking about in terms of some of these indirect journeys of faith?

Randy Newman
Yeah, well, I think people come to all sorts of things with a mix of motivations, and and many motivations. And that was one of the things I wanted the reader to consider early on. Maybe we approach this thing with a mix of motives. And in fact, I, I think we all do it. We all would like to have pure motives. But I don’t know if any of us ever have pure motives. It’s always mixed. And so early on in the process, I want to encourage people to think maybe, maybe my motives in this are not just intellectual inquiry, that I’m an objective thinker, we all come to this with emotional concerns, social concerns, we’re concerned about how we fit into the larger society. So I mean, eventually, ultimately, when people come to faith, they have to come to grips with Who Was Jesus, and what did his death on the cross mean? And what does it mean to repent and believe, but, but getting there comes from a lot of twists and turns. So that was, that was a, an early point I wanted to make in the book.

Collin Hansen
Let me just use my own example. And you can analyze this and, and help people to understand how it relates to your book. When I look back on coming to faith at age 15, did not grow up in a sort of fervently of angelical household by any means, but was exposed to the church, broadly speaking. I remember it was a very emotional experience very transformative, decisive change in my thoughts, and in my attitude, not necessarily always in my moral behavior, unfortunately, but there were there were clear transformations there. But when I go back, I’m not exactly sure what kind of gospel message I was responding to. In the moment, I don’t remember exactly what was said. What I do remember, is a feeling of unexpected acceptance from this group of people which became a kind of extension of an acceptance I think, at some level with God Add? Is that what you’re talking about? Or is that problematic?

Randy Newman
No, that’s very much what I’m talking about. And I’m certain I don’t think you’re alone. And I think people do. They look back at their experience, and they go, oh, wait a minute, there were a whole lot of other things going on there. That’s just the reality of being, I don’t know, multifaceted beings. I love the fact that that the gospel is talked about so many different ways in Scripture at the core, for sure is substitutionary atonement. I mean, that’s the core, you can’t get away from that you can’t deny that. But just think about, there’s all these other words that are all tied in, there’s redemption, there’s reconciliation, there’s salvation, there’s eternal life, they all they have different facets of this really beautiful gem of the gospel. And if the Scripture talks about it so multifaceted Lee, well, then we shouldn’t be surprised if we as people latch on in different ways in different starting points, so to speak.

Collin Hansen
I suppose it’s also Randy, where the starting point is not the end point, meaning that those different facets of the gospel become clearer over time. And sometimes they speak to us in different ways, at different points in our life. One of the things that I’m picking up in, in this book, questioning faith, as I’m wondering how much of our communication to the Gospel, it’s never, it’s never less than explicit testimony verbally, to to Jesus Christ or, or in a written form. But at the same time, he seemed to indicate that there are other kinds of gestures that we can make that help people to understand, in part, the effects of Christianity. One of them was a student who was shocked that a Bible Study leader didn’t check her phone when they talked. There are other examples that you can think of like this, almost like, how do we communicate what Christianity has not just in what we say, but in how we say it? I think and so sure.

Randy Newman
Boy, well, let me just start a little bit further back, if I can, you know, those of us who teach about evangelism, we’ve we regularly say, today, given our world and given where people are, we need to start further back, we need to assume less things. So it, it used to be, we could start by talking about who God is and who Jesus was and what the Bible says. But there are a lot of people today who those are just such alien concepts, we need to start further back. And that’s, that’s what I was trying to do in the book I wanted to, I wanted to write a pre evangelistic book. And so I wanted to step back with let’s let’s first talk about how do we approach this? Well, we approach it with a mix of motives. And don’t we all have faith in something, every faith is inevitable, not optional. And you know, those kinds of pre supposition or ideas are something. And so, if that’s the case, then it’s probably for a lot of people a longer process. And they probably they do they have to see more than just hearing words, and ideas and concepts, they want to see, oh, this, this thing you’re talking about? It’s, it’s really changed you it’s it’s made you kind it’s made you a better listener, it’s made you a person who doesn’t reject me just because I disagree with you. So they’re all of these. I nonverbal. It’s too vague of a category, but there are all these ways we communicate with people, not just the statements that we’re making, that we’re asking them to agree with. So, so the book, I’m also hoping by telling all of these stories about how people came to faith, I’m hoping it also for Christians, they look at it and they go, Well, how do I come across and how do I sound? And what else can I talk to people about so that I’m not always just talking about? You know, Jesus rose from the dead? Yes, but, but other aspects of people’s lives that are also part of God’s sovereign plan for them, and for us. So I think that touches on the kinds of things you’re asking about.

Collin Hansen
I’ve used this example many times over the years, but shortly after I graduated from college, I did a study of evangelism in the Ivy League. And what I found was that in many cases, the when people were dialoguing, it was important for them to know that somebody Like them, also believed he’s Christian things. It wasn’t necessarily that they needed every one of their questions answered, oh, it was important for them that they just knew that somebody else had considered these things. And they looked up to them, and they thought, Oh, well, then maybe I can believe these things. Yes. So I think that’s always been an important part of evangelism is not just the sort of the rational discourse, right. But also the sub or extra are super rational feelings and intuitions that that we have, as well. Yeah.

Randy Newman
You know, I’m thinking back to a story that I told somewhere else, but not, not in this book. But it was this guy who he was very, very smart, very intelligent, he went to a really great University, and he just thought that Christians were not very smart. And, and he had kind of been that had been kind of the model before he got to the university. So where he grew up, it was sort of whatever Christianity you saw, was pretty uncritical, not thinking, unintelligent, anti intellectual. And he was really, really bright. And so eventually, he got involved in this Bible study. And he found that although these people are kind of smart, I mean, they’re at the same university I am, they got into the same higher caliber school. And one time he asked a question, and the person gave him a very, very thoughtful, considerate answer. And he was just kind of surprised that first of all, that they took his question seriously, and that they gave a pretty decent answer. And I said to him, when he was telling me this, I said, So did that satisfy that the answer to your question? And he said, Well, enough. Yeah. But what I what I figured was, oh, maybe there are answers to all of my questions, because I had a whole ton of questions. And then I said, so did you ask him like a million questions? He said, No, I didn’t need to. I realized that that point, oh, smart. People have thought about these things. There probably are decent answers. And so he he came to faith and believed, with still a whole lot of unanswered questions. And I think that’s the case for a lot of people. That

Collin Hansen
is exactly the point that I was trying to make, but you said it much more effectively. Let’s talk about another area that’s often difficult in terms of really pre evangelism. And this is a topic that’s is changed. I bet 40 years ago, you weren’t having the same conversations in the same way that you were, say 10 years ago. But I also think, Randy, that these conversations are always shifting, it’s probably different now quite a bit than it was 10 years ago. You write in the book that faithful heterosexual monogamy has never been easy, or felt natural. But as Christians, we continue to affirm, it’s always been good. There’ll be good tomorrow be good forever. Now, the alternatives you observe, quote, have left countless people damaged and lonely, on the name of authentic expression of their sexual identity. And quote, It feels as though for decades, certainly in the last decade, Christians have been on the defensive for so long about the sexual revolution. I’m wondering, Randy, do you think we might be able to go on the offense with the sexual revolution, as we see and as younger generations have experienced how much havoc has been reaped, especially among young adults?

Randy Newman
Oh, very much. So. I’m trying I’m wrestling though, with the phrase about going on the offensive. I don’t I don’t know if I mean, that is

Collin Hansen
what I mean is what I mean is we’ve been on the Christianity must be bigoted. And we’re always trying to explain why it’s not bigoted. What about talking about the unlivable ality of a sexual revolution that is destroying people? Yeah. So instead of us just saying, proving to ourselves that the SEC that, that we’re not what secular folks think we are saying the alternatives are far worse. And that’s very obvious and how it’s playing out. That’s right.

Randy Newman
Yeah. And so I think I think we can start with, you know, I don’t think this is working out all that, well, all of the things that we have come to assume and accept about sexuality, is it’s not really making people happier. It’s not making it’s not making their lives work very well. And we don’t, I don’t think we need to argue all that strongly about that. I mean, I’ve said that to people. And it’s amazing how much agreement the staunchest non Christians are like, Yeah, you know, this is really is messing up people’s lives. So that’s, that’s the first wave. I think. The next step, I think, is to say, you know, I realized the Christian view about sexuality is in the minority. And in fact, it’s always been considered weird. It’s always has been considered ridiculous. I mean, it’s always been amazingly narrow. And just, it’s always been on the wrong side of history. And so so then so then we’re just sort of like acknowledging Yeah, I realized this is hard to believe, because it’s so out of the norm. But the norm isn’t all that good right now. And then now, so let me tell you why I think this biblical view is really good. Here are the advantages. And if there is a God, and He made us sexual beings, it would kind of make sense, wouldn’t it that he would have the idea about how this can work well. So that’s the route that I talked about, and that I want to encourage people here. Here’s another another way of thinking about it, where we’re talking to people who who say, no, that’s just crazy. What do you believe? And there’s several different beliefs in there. I mean, sexualities is one but there’s a whole bunch, no, and we’re trying to get them to Yes, yes, you really should believe this. Well, there’s a big ground in the middle of maybe. And for a lot of people, I think we need to try to get them to maybe, well, maybe, maybe it’s not so crazy what you believe, maybe there’s something to it, maybe I need to rethink this. And for some people budging from No, to maybe, maybe the most important first steps.

Collin Hansen
I think it’s related to the point I was making earlier about that, that convert the further we get away from Christian dominance, we see the effects of the world without Christianity. And I don’t think as Christians, we’re surprised that it doesn’t seem to be going very well when you’re going against the grain of the Creator. And so that’s what I’m kind of wondering, especially in a post Christian environment, we often feel as though we’re having to apologize for our beliefs. Now, I think, Randy, there’s something that you say in this book that I understand where you’re coming from. And I’ve actually done a lot of work on this subject, including my writing and publishing on Charles Taylor. But you say that we all live with a mix of belief and doubt. I, I’ve got to imagine, Randy, that a lot of Christians still think that it’s dangerous for Christians to allow, or even admit doubt. Make the case I think that’s counterintuitive to a lot of people. If you came and said, I’m doubting my Christian faith, I think people would probably panic about that, if, if you were saying that to a parent or to a pastor or another spiritual authority. So what do you mean, about admitting our doubts?

Randy Newman
Well, yeah, I think you’re exactly right. And some people won’t accept what I’m saying. I guess on a very practical level, I can say, when I’ve shared with non believers that I have doubts, it has actually helped them a whole lot to move forward. Because I think a lot of a lot of non Christians think, Alright, when you become a Christian, you no longer have any doubts. I can never be like that. So I’m, I’m not even gonna budge and move anywhere near this, because I just, I got too many doubts. I got too many questions. And so I’ve said to quite a few non Christians. Oh, I still have doubts. I still have questions. Yeah. I have, I have a very high level of confidence that this is true, and that this is good, very high level. But I don’t have absolute certainty. And so I have a whole chapter on that of what if, what if absolute certainty isn’t necessary? Because I just think, I want to get people past that idea of oh, you can never have doubts. Now. How do we make the case for scripture? Well, I, um, I am kind of intrigued with. Paul had some tremendous fear before he came to preach in Corinth. He said that. He said that when he looked back at he said, I came to you with much fear and trembling. So that sounds like some kind of doubt, at least in you know, his ability to, to proclaim the gospel. I’m thinking about that one verse in the book of Jude, where we’re told, be merciful to those who doubt. Now, again, people could see that as only outsiders, nonbelievers, so maybe that doesn’t make the case. I just find that you know, Paul talks about we see through a mirror darkly or dimly that seems to allow for some doubt. I am intrigued, painfully so that John the Baptist, who was just so bold to proclaim here Here he is the one we’ve been waiting for Behold the Lamb of God. And then later he’s doubting he’s in prison and he sent a message. Are you the one? Or should we work for someone else? And then we have that, that great patron saint of doubt, the man who said, I do believe helped me in my unbelief. So, um, I don’t think that that totally would convince someone who’s really afraid of admitting doubt. But I, I’ve seen it work. Better than insisting I don’t have doubt I there was a time I think when I you know, I, I tried to sound a so sure. But again, I think the concept, the category of absolute certainty, is beyond human ability. I think that that comes more from a very arrogant, secular post enlightenment view of our brains. So that I don’t know if I could make a stronger case, but but it, it helps me tremendously to admit my doubts.

Collin Hansen
I think if I’m, if I’m understanding Randy, what you’re what you’re doing in this in this book, as well, is that when we admit in our highly pluralistic environment, where we are constantly bombarded by all kinds of information, arguments against our belief, examples of Christians acting really badly. Those are, those are relatively new experiences in human history. Most people did not experience their Christian faith, with so much challenge to it, yes, internally. They had all the inward challenges I’m sure of, of just of suffering and things like that. But they didn’t. They didn’t have the atmosphere. I mean, we even know the question of theodicy does not really arise at the same level, we see it in the scriptures, but we don’t seem to arise at the same level, until the Enlightenment era, Voltaire and others. So I think that’s kind of what we’re getting at that there’s that we live in a in a different environment, where going back to the examples that the Bible does not promise you complete and total certainty about everything in here. But it gives you enough certainty to know what is true, namely, Jesus Christ in His revealed Word. But we can’t and don’t have to answer every single question with as if no one can ask these questions. And I think if we do that, what you’re saying is that that makes that opens the door to secularists to step back and say, maybe I’m not so sure, either that Christianity is not true. Or that secularism is the only viable way to look at things. Is that right?

Randy Newman
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that’s right. Yes. And I think some of us may have had kind of an all or nothing kind of mindset. It’s, it’s all confident, all true, and you’re all wrong with your own Christian beliefs. And what I want to say is we you know, we both have doubts, we both have an incomplete picture. Let’s compare our incomplete pictures. I think the Christian ones a whole lot better. But But I still have unanswered questions. You know, I think back I can’t remember if I shared this in the book, but I had this I’ve had this very fun and good long term friendship with an atheist who’s now a retired philosophy professor, we’ve had some really, really great conversations. But one of our very first conversations was when he said to me, I don’t think the Chris I don’t think Christians have a very good answer to the problem of evil. And I said, Okay, well, I mean, I, it’s got some, it’s got some incompleteness for me. But so what’s the atheist answer for the problem of evil? And that was when he said, you know, to tell you the truth, I don’t think we have a very good one either. And I said, Okay, so we both have unsatisfying answers. I think when I think mine is better, a whole lot better. But let’s compare our incomplete or unsatisfying answers and that has sparked I really mean this decades of really, really good conversation between us where we start with okay, we both have doubts, we both have some incompleteness. By the way I want to quickly jump in with I’m thinking of Deuteronomy 2929, one of my favorite verses of that God has revealed truth to us, but he hasn’t revealed everything to us that to the secret things belong to the Lord our God. But the things that have been revealed are so We can live a godly life in this world. So yeah, there’s a whole lot of stuff that God hasn’t told us yet. And I don’t think he’s going to in this life, he certainly hasn’t in the scriptures, there’s still plenty of unanswered questions. But the things he has made clear tip the scales dramatically, I think in our favor for confident belief, even in the midst of some unanswered questions.

Collin Hansen
You do share that story. It was one of the questions I was going to ask an atheist who had been a Muslim, right? And she was talking about her uncle’s death as the reason that she left Islam. And then you ask, well, has your atheism brought you comfort? Yeah. And she said, Well, I haven’t even considered that plus. That’s what I was trying to get that we are on the fence of as Christians about this problem of evil. But when you turn it around and say, what’s your explanation? Yeah, all of a sudden, you don’t realize that there’s a more compelling explanation. And I want to clarify Also, earlier, I think I probably my question or explanation could have been seen as being in direct contradiction, for example, to Hebrews 11. One. Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see, I think it’s safe to say that we’re as certain as we possibly can of anything that we do not see that Jesus Christ is risen from the dead, that he was crucified for our sins, and that he’s revealed His Word to us. You just did a good job of explaining, though, that one thing that we would not be certain of, for example, would be, why am I suffering? Yeah, why did this bad thing happen? To me? Well, that is not necessarily revealed to you. Right, you can still have certain faith in God, that He is good in those things. So two things can coexist. That’s what I’m trying to get at. Does that make sense? Yeah,

Randy Newman
yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I think that that’s a very, very powerful argument that we have that that that’s not just a philosophical argument. It’s a very real experience. And, and so I tell a prolonged, very painful story in the chapter about suffering about a friend who who died and he faced death, right there. Right in his face. But he had a strong faith in God in Christ in salvation. And so there’s a million questions about why did he suffer so much. I mean, it’s an excruciating, painful story that I think back about, especially the last year of his life, I mean, it’s just, it’s, it’s hard to express, it’s hard to find words that express how painful his life was. And yet in the midst of it, he knew for certain he was going to be delivered into a new body. And he had an he had a kind of a tremendous piece. At the end, there was also a sadness in there that he was leaving this life, but a tremendous piece, and still unanswered questions. And that’s, that’s the promise of the gospel that is so good. That and it’s so much better than the unbelieving, or the skeptical, or the agnostic views. So that’s what I was trying to argue in that chapter of, no, I don’t have all the answers, but what a source of hope and strength. So here, let me let me say in that chapter, I tried to say, we don’t just need answers to the why questions about pain and suffering, we also need answers to the how questions, how do I get how do I get through it? How do I find strength in the midst of pain? How do I find joy in the midst of physical struggles or disease or grief for? And that’s where I think the gospel shines, it gives us tremendous answers of how do I find joy and hope in the midst of this?

Collin Hansen
Yeah, let me I’m just gonna, I’m gonna read a couple quotes in here, because what you’re describing here, Randy about the about the differences between plausibility and certainty, seemed to me one of the most important contributions of this book, and probably are going to reorient a lot of things for different people. So want to give them a flavor for some of this. You mentioned earlier that apologetics is associated by many Christians want to search for proof as the grounds of search for proof as the grounds of our belief, but you right? What if you can’t prove God created the world with a sense of order design, but all the complexity and beauty in the physical universe suggest this is more likely than the conclusion that all this happened through chaos and chance? Same thing we’re talking about here, helping people to doubt their doubts. If you don’t believe in the Christian story. What is your story? And what are the results of that story? Which one? Which one is better? Which one’s more beautiful? Then you also mentioned this plausibility and certainty. Once again, you say, quote, I want to suggest that we can have a high level of confidence, that it makes more sense to believe we live in a creative world with a personal God, then to believe we are nothing more than cosmic accidents. I say this because we treat people with dignity and fairness. Or at least we believe we should a common view across the west today, whether people are I’m saying this now people are Christians or not, and then back to you. And values like equality and respect cohere better with the Christian view than the naturalistic one. So the book is a good example, like you said earlier of pre evangelism, where you’re trying to help help skeptics to doubt their doubts, to consider the threshold of plausibility. What did you say earlier? The the maybe, or the perhaps, or something like that, before you say that? Maybe in there, that’s clearly what you’re trying to do. And like you said, that opens up a lot of different possibilities for short term, medium term and long term conversations with friends, and others. About On what grounds do we build a life? One last question I had here, Randy relates to the question about another another common question we’ve looked at at apologetics for a long time, about what the question of whether all paths lead to God, it doesn’t really matter what you believe the same kind of thing. You talk in part about the differences between Christianity and Islam? And I’m wondering, as we continue into a more pluralistic environment that we’ve been talking about here? Do you still hear that same argument as much as you did before about all paths leading to God? Or now that we’re actually surrounded by more Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus? Is there more of a recognition among so called secularists, that that’s actually a very offensive view? To hold, including toward Muslims and Buddhists and Hindus?

Randy Newman
Oh, yes, yes, yes. Well, I don’t know if I hear that question less, I think you’re probably right, I do. There may be a little bit of a harsher edge to the question, even though people are not thinking and it’s like, well, how in the world can you be so narrow and exclusive? But But you’re right, we do have these these different religions represented all around us, you know, down on our same street, within the same office, part of you know, the, within five desks of us. So so it can become a better conversation if we’re willing to step into the uncomfortable part of it. But yeah, I do think that we can sort of flip the question on its head, it is interesting, people want to say, well, you know, these are all the same. I’m gonna wait a minute, let’s, let’s, let’s talk a little bit about Buddhism, and Judaism. You know, if you say that they’re the same. Sounds to me, like, we’re not really looking very well at Buddhism or Judaism. And in fact, we may be distorting both, and we may be insulting. I mean, that is the argument of, oh, golly, I forgotten his name. Now, the religious studies professor up in Boston, Steven pro Thoreau mean, he wrote a whole book saying there’s different religions are not the same. And he’s not a religious person. He says, but but to argue that they’re the same. He says it is. It’s he says, it’s simply not true. But it is insulting. If you say to a Jewish person and a Muslim person, you know, you guys, you actually believe the same things. No, you, you obviously don’t know what either one of us think. So. We’re trying to be more understanding and more truthful about these differences. And I think the differences help, again, shine the spotlight on the gospel that oh, this this one’s really different, and it’s really good.

Collin Hansen
That’s a good that’s a great place to stop it right there. The book is questioning faith, indirect journeys of belief through terrains of doubt. My guest has been Randy Newman, the author, and this is new book from crossway and the gospel coalition. Randy, thanks for joining me today on Gospelbound.

Randy Newman
Oh, it’s been great. Thanks so much.