Do You See Her? How to Care for the Women in Your Church

The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

Courtney Doctor
Welcome, we are so excited to look out and see this many people, this many men and women wanting to know and talk about how to best Shepherd and care for women in your local congregations. So thanks for being here. I’m Courtney doctor and the director of women’s initiatives at the gospel coalition. And I’m going to let Melissa and Vanessa introduce themselves.

Melissa Kruger
I’m Melissa Krieger I’m, this is bad, okay, we’re really tired. So just be prepared for what the session might be. I’m the VP of discipleship programming for the gospel coalition.

Vanessa Hawkins
I’m Vanessa Hawkins, I’m the director of community life for Redeemer Lincoln Square in New York City, as well as one of the Keller center fellows.

Courtney Doctor
And we have known each other for over a decade. So this is really sweet to be able to do this together, because the three of us have been doing women’s ministry in and out of each other’s lives for for quite a while. So it’s a joy to be able to be here with you. And what we’re hoping is that there will be enough time at the end to just hear from you all what you’re interested in hearing about. So that’s why the two microphones were just set up. So we’re going to try and get there. So if there’s something that you’re really eager, I always say it’s not a q&a, it’s a q&a or question and response, because we don’t necessarily have the answers, but we will respond to what you to what you bring us. But we are assuming that you’re here because you care about shepherding, well, you shepherding the women and your congregations, well, no matter what your role is in that, and, and like I said, we’re excited that you’re here to discuss that. So why don’t we start by you each telling a little bit about what your just your history and women’s ministry, your experience in ministering to women has been?

Vanessa Hawkins
Yeah, so I guess my first entree into women’s ministry was as an intern of for Kurkova hills in St. Louis. And that was really sweet because I was coming out of a context where women’s ministry was done much differently. And it was a very egalitarian church. And coming into women’s ministry, I had my own doubts about, you know, how did I feel about it, because honestly, I think of myself as probably the most the person that you would least expect to lead women, because I just did not like women’s ministry, because in my mind, it’s soft serve women the gospel, and so I just didn’t like it. And so. So being an intern, the Lord began to get a hold of my heart. And it went from I got to do women’s ministry to I get to do women’s ministry, I get to serve women in this way. And so the Lord got ahold of my heart in that internship. And since then, I’ve had the opportunity to build women’s ministry, and to assist other people, men building women’s ministries. And so it’s been a delight for me. Yeah, I

Melissa Kruger
first started working, and I actually first started working at my church and children’s ministry, which is a way you get to know a lot of women in the church. And sometimes you see them in their, with their tears, and in their hardest moments when they’re dropping that child off at the nursery at church. But I, I worked at my church for 10 years, and then my local church and women’s ministry. And yeah, it was just a real joy to have that season of in the local church day in and day out. Just getting to talk to women getting to teach women getting to really help our session, and in my session elders and deacons care for women in the church, and then I work for TGC. And I get to do this all the time.

Courtney Doctor
Yeah, it’s great. And mine similar. I was on staff at a church. Well, before that I helped serve in women’s ministry for a long time just as a lay leader, teaching and choosing curriculum and caring for women and then on staff at a church and now thinking about how women’s what’s happening in women’s ministry and local churches around the world. So it is a joy. What are some ways that you have been well cared for by ministry leaders, by pastors and shepherds and elders and other director of women’s ministry?

Melissa Kruger
I can say, there have been so many ways. First of all, I have worked with so many wonderful men through the years who really want to do a good job of shepherding women. And so I’m going to give one way that I think, is something that you experience as a woman sometimes, but maybe hasn’t always been stated. And it is the men in my life who have had a ministry have seen women versus watching women. And so there’s a big difference in that type of ministry. And so I can remember my college pastor, David Bowen at Good Shepherd. When I was in college, I always felt seen by him He would know my name he would ask about he would know my major. I can even remember in that church, I was a college student, I think I had I had joined a church. I remember, we still had voicemail. I mean, a real one, you press, whatever that was called. And I remember getting an answering

Speaker 1
machine answering mistakes. Yeah, that I came out of nowhere. Yeah.

Melissa Kruger
Back in the dark ages, I can remember getting a call from my elder, saying, I just want you to know we’re praying for you. And I’d love to know any way specifically, I can be praying for you. Yeah, I was like, the church is great. Look at what they’re doing. I mean, it was really this, we see you. And we want you as a member to feel really loved, and a part of the church. And to compare that to a watch ministry. I’ve had situations where I’ve felt watch where I’ve had that, that, that a little bit like, we’re a little bit suspicious of you. Why are you so into this ministry thing? You know, what are you doing here? Rather than? We’re so glad you’re eager to participate in the life of the body? Yeah, we’re so glad. But it can be a little bit more. You know, are you doing everything right? Or maybe you even a Phil a little bit of pit, the only time you’re called is when you’re in trouble. A little bit of that. That’s what I call this watched ministry. So I think the shepherds I’ve seen do it well, they really see the women in their church, and they seek to care for them. Yeah,

Vanessa Hawkins
I can think of lots of ways to just as you’re saying, I think one of the first ways I think about a Dr. Phil Douglas and being in his class, and Dr. Douglas would take the entire roster, and he would get pictures who have all of our pictures. And he would pray for us so that when he saw us, he knew us by name. And so he was always able to engage us. And so I always knew he was praying for us. So that was one of the ways I just felt immensely cared for. And I felt seen, I felt seen by in particular, Courtney’s dear husband is I call him my brother. And Craig’s my big brother. And so we have that type of relationship that I know that Craig will encourage me and we encourage each other. And I’m just I’m strengthened by that relationship. And it really is like a sibling relationship. And I just love that. That’s, that’s super helpful and encouraging to me. And then others, like, for instance, just pastors that I have had the privilege of serving on staff with who have seen my gifts, call them out, and push me in the back and say, you should be doing more with this. That has been the biggest and the richest of blessings. Yeah,

Courtney Doctor
yeah. Just to piggyback on that, I agree. It was a pastor that first invited me to teach. It was our pastor that said, Yes, you should go to seminary. And even currently, I’ve had recently a pastor show up to his women’s retreat, where I was teaching on a Friday night and a Saturday, three sessions. And he sat through the entire retreat, and took notes. He was not watching. He was not suspicious. He had a posture of, of just partnership in the Gospel. And I thought, and what the women in his church are seeing right now is incredibly beautiful. Because they by seeing him do that will feel very welcomed and known. And so yeah, there’s been a lot of ways that’s beautiful by now. Well, what are some of the best practices then that you’ve seen where we’ve been hinting around the but what are some of the best practices that you’ve seen as pastors, shepherd? The women in their care? What are what are some of the things that they’ve tangibly done? That have been helpful?

Unknown Speaker
Well, I

Vanessa Hawkins
think what has been really notable is when I see pastors reach out, and include women in the care of women, that is just always remarkable, that is always just super helpful, because there are just certain situations in which women are, you know, honestly, just they’re better suited to care for women in certain situations. And it’s just more 10 It’s easier to relay some things and to lay yourself bare before a woman on some things. And so to include for pastors to be sensitive enough to know that, you know, I need to leverage the women in my church to include them to care for other women. Is a mature and a very wise Pastor, I think. Yeah, yeah.

Melissa Kruger
I’ve seen churches do this really well. I remember talking to one pastor about it. I say, especially if it’s a really tender issue, and honestly, when a woman’s going before a bunch of elders or a session, it’s normally a very tender issue. intimidating. Yes. And I’d say it’s for her. It’s like she has cancer and is going to the doctor. And you know, often if that’s your diagnosis, you take a friend with you, right? Because yeah, the doctors the authority, the doctor is going to do your care, but you need I need that friend there to remind me what the doctor said because She is in deer in the headlights at that moment. So it’s not that if Vanessa is with me, she’s not. She’s not the doctor. She’s not the one taking care, but she’s going to remind me what the doctor said. So the pastors and the elders, they’re there, they’re going to care for her. But this person can come alongside and remind. So I just think I think that’s really helpful. Another way I’ve seen systemically the church do this well is when the elders of the church meet with the women’s leadership team, maybe two or three times a year on a regular basis. And they have good conversations, where the elders are actually saying to the women leaders of the church, hey, what’s going on? What what do you all see that we’re not seeing? And this is why I believe in this so strongly, it’s because I’m a complementarian. I actually believe men and women are unique and different and made in the image of God all at the same time, and that we desperately need each other. Absolutely. I need my brother’s perspective. And I think our brothers need our sisters perspective. So we’ve actually got to get in the room together at some times and just have those conversations. Because sometimes, like, all the women know, hey, the picnic was three The reason no one came up because all the children were napping. And yeah, and they can just, they can just tell the elders that it wasn’t that they didn’t want come, it just was the timing was off, and you just need to have those conversations as a family. Yes. So that the family can all be well taken care of.

Courtney Doctor
Absolutely. I’ve even had multiple times where pastors will have a sermon review committee and have women on it either before they read the sermon and talk about it ahead of time, which is wisdom, or afterwards, and it’s just having women speak into me. And, you know, it’s been six weeks of football illustrations, you know, it’s like, I got your back brother, like, yeah, you probably ought to try another illustration. And so just just having people speak into are some of the more difficult passages, I’ve had pastors send me their sermon ahead of time and say, I’m preaching on David and Bathsheba. How does this hit you? And, and asking your sisters and your mothers in the body of Christ to, to, to participate in that because I agree with you, I we need each other desperately. So best practices, I love that we might come back to that. What are the various aspects? So if you were to if somebody were, you know, like me a note taker, and they want to have like, what four things do I need? You know, what are the what are the essential aspects that I need to be thinking about as I am caring for women? Well,

Vanessa Hawkins
I’ll tell you start there most

Melissa Kruger
essential aspects. I mean, okay, well, let me just start, I think every essential aspect, the easiest way you can have a ministry that cares for women in your church is to have a prayer, full ministry, if the elders are praying Well, for the whole church, every member of the church, and I really believe in this, it is not unspiritual to communicate that I know sometimes you want to be like, Oh, I’m supposed to pray in my closet and not let anybody know what I’m doing. And I get it, I get it. But it means the world. When when when you just come to a woman and say, Hey, we’re going through our prayer list this week, and you were on my prayer list, I just want you to know, I’m lifting you up before God, that’s a huge thing. And I think it is overlooked. I think the basic spiritual disciplines are overlooked, we would also say, honestly, taking the time to preach the word well, to the whole congregation that also cares. Well, for women, I want my pastor, to spend a lot of time in the Bible. I want I mean, that is a gift to me, that he spends time in research that he goes to conferences like this and gets his heart refreshed, so that he can come back and refresh because the preached word is manna for us all. It’s a means of grace to us, that you give to us. So I mean, the word and the prayer and prayer, and then I think really getting your session and your elders equipped on a regular basis on how to care for the whole congregation. Maybe it’s you go to some seminars on it, but just really thinking through what is spiritual care? What does it look like that continual Ed training, I feel like those things are sometimes get overlooked. We assume that we know how to do things. And there really are people who are excellent at this and who can help us do it better. So I think whether it’s reading a book on it, whether it’s going to a conference and receiving, hey, how should we care well for the women in the church, and then I would say also just always enlisting the help of women, which we’ve talked about just asking for a feedback loop. Hey, how are we doing this? Well, what are you hearing that we’re not doing? Well, just having those conversations, I think that’s, I like to think of my family as a microcosm of what The church family should be looking like so that’s what my husband would do. How are we doing? And that’s a normal conversation we should be having kind of as men and women in the church. Yeah,

Vanessa Hawkins
I would put a fine point on, including women in the care of other women have them to come alongside but don’t outsource shepherding women don’t outsource it, it’s it can be really tempting. I think that if you’ve got some women who are caring really well, to just kind of silo them and allow them to just do the care of women, while the elders just care for man, that’s, that’s a, that’s a really unhealthy approach. It should be a shared work, it should be a shared work, and caring well for the family of God. And so making sure that women are included, but that it’s not outsourced to them, I think is really key. I

Courtney Doctor
love that. And it reminds me of so caring for the women in your church and making sure that you know, another woman is present if it’s a, you know, we’re not bringing her in by herself, but then also not outsourcing it. It reminds me of when you and I were working together in St. Louis, the deacons at this particular church started an annual tradition, though the week of Valentine’s Day, they the deacons, not their wives, the deacons would put on a dinner for all of the widows and unmarried and st you know, just the single women in the church and sit with them and have conversations because I know a lot of my single friends have said before, I mean, I just I just liked the perspective that my brothers can bring me sometimes I like that, that particular vantage point. So that’s not outsourcing or, or you and Craig, you know, it’s just this precious friendship and you know, it’s a, it’s a brother sister relationship, but the deacons would have this dinner, and then they would get to know the women, and then remind them that if these women needed anything in particular, if they had a somebody coming over to their house to do service work, and maybe it was an older woman who didn’t feel comfortable with that, or needed had some questions about I don’t know, if I’m being taken advantage of my roof repair, the deacons would say, we can come be there we can, we can help. And so we are your resource in that, but that they created a space for the relationships and the conversations to happen. I just thought it was one of them as beautiful ways to care for the this particular demographic of women in in our church.

Vanessa Hawkins
Courtney Can I Can I also add, I think it can also be easy that if if a woman is married you particularly named women who are unmarried or divorced, and that was beautiful. It was absolutely incredible and just beautiful to watch that ministry I loved that they did that it was very much family, you can call on your family when you are in need of, of a man to be present. And so that was that was super helpful. But I would also say with married women, sometimes the if, if you’re not really attentive to how contacts are being made, it can just get to elders calling the husband. And so you know, and just assuming that he knows what’s going on with the family. And so it’s hard to just care well for the entire family if you’re only talking to the husband. That’s good. And so it’s really important. I mean, when I think of shepherding when I think of Jesus as the shepherd of the sheep, that’s tender. That’s there’s a there’s a knowing that happens with that, that you can’t do through somebody. You’ve got to know the sheath.

Courtney Doctor
That’s so good. Yeah, I love that. So we have named several ways that we have seen this done really well and ways that we’ve experienced really good care in our churches. But what we want to talk about too, is what are some ways that you’ve seen damage or hurt or harm to women in the local church instead of the care and support and encouragement that we’re that we’re talking about? And then let’s don’t just leave it there. But also what could have been done differently in those situations that that would have turned it into a positive caring supportive encounter.

Melissa Kruger
One, one kind of subtle one that I do want to address because I think what you just said about kind of only shepherding the men and assuming it will trickle down. I actually think that can be really problematic, yes, and a lot of ways but I think there’s also at times just complete indifference to what’s happening in the women’s ministry. So that means and I think it’s actually really dangerous because, you know, the curriculum that’s been studied is never even talked about, you know, and so, a lot of bad theology can seep in, through whatever curriculum was picked because See, no one’s paying attention? Oh, it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter. Because the women are just doing it. That’s kind of like saying, Well, half of my body, it doesn’t matter what I do with it. Yeah, I mean, think about that you want i, if I’ll be honest, if I stub my toe, I’m like, That is the worst pain in the entire world, sometimes you, it’s just your toe, and you know, it’s gonna be okay. But if half of our body isn’t working, we have a huge problem. And so it’s if we chose not to wash half of our body or take care of half of our body, we would not like the whole body, right? You know, it’s so much it affects everything, I think we have to be really careful that I think sometimes women can be seen as, oh, well, that’s good, you’re doing something, rather than necessary and needed, every part of the body matters. And so when there’s this indifference, sometimes it can foster your, oh, if you do something that’s good, you know, we really got it here. And I think that’s one of those subtle ways that there could be a lack of care.

Vanessa Hawkins
I think having an awareness, that a self awareness that I’m going to have bias over categories of difference. So if if, you know, that’s whether it’s my womanist, whether it’s my ethnic, you know, identity, over categories of difference, just know that if someone is in a different category, you’re going to have some biases. And so just being aware of that, and so being softer towards the person in that area, just knowing and having awareness that you are going to have bias. And so I’ve seen Yeah, I have seen women hurt by that, because it’s the suspicion instead of belief for what what’s being said. And so if there’s no belief, and there’s no compassion, and then it just doesn’t allow us to act like the body

Melissa Kruger
can’t give an example. I had a woman in the Church Call me one time she and her husband were in a tough marriage spot. It was it was honestly it was there was nothing abusive. There’s nothing like that. It was just they had really grown not to like each other very much. And so the elders are meeting with them on a regular basis to try to help their marriage. And she said one night, they had kind of one of those conversations where they both told them really hard things, because both were having issues. And she said, so yeah, they told me my heart things. And they told him my heart, his heart things. And they were, you know, she said they were right. For both of us. She didn’t have a problem with being told the hard things. But then that week, one of the elders called her husband to check in on him and took him to a baseball game. Yeah, just to kind of make sure he was okay. And because there have been a woman in the room, there was no woman to do kind of that same thing to her. Yeah. So she was left feeling like, Oh, he’s getting kind of that. I know, we told you a hard thing. And now we’re just gonna make sure the relationships Okay, and there wasn’t really an appropriate way to do that for her. So just making sure that even the care is similar, can be a big thing. Yeah, that’s

Vanessa Hawkins
really good. Listen.

Courtney Doctor
So see the women know what’s going on. I think that even going back to that I’ve heard different people say, you know, read the books that that the women in your congregation are reading, because there there are some books out there that that are shaping and forming popular culture. And it’s important to have a grasp on what, what and that’s as a as a woman’s ministry leader, or a man in the church as a ministry leader, to know what what is shaping and forming are the people in our congregation, and specifically, the women. So what are some ways that if being seen is important, and I would just affirm that in every way I had had a ministry leader, one time, he was out the door and my office was right by the door and he he stopped and he came back and he leaned his head in and he’s a godly, wonderful man. But he said to me, Courtney, you are doing a great job. He goes, I don’t actually know what you’re doing. But I hear it’s great. And he walked out and I thought to be seen is huge. It’s part of my story. I want to be known and it was really hurtful. And he was trying to be helpful, you know, he’s trying to be helpful. So to be seen, as important, we’re establishing that. So what are some ways that women can be overlooked? And what are some ways to make sure that they’re not what are some ways that that we all can see the women that are in our ministry? spheres? Yeah,

Vanessa Hawkins
I think you have to, I mean, leaders have to really think particularly pastors have to be creative because I’ve been on a staff a pastoral staff were to and to have that one on one with the guys and then for women not to get that same type of nerve You’re in coaching. I think pastors that I’ve seen do it well, I’ve had pastors to take me for a walk in a very public place so that we could talk and I could get the one on one. And so it was comfortable for him. But he wasn’t. He wasn’t satisfied not giving me the development that I needed from him. And so I’ve seen pastors just have to, you know, think about how to do that. Well. And so, yeah, so I think that’s part of it is just being intentional about it. How do I care? Well, for you, and women on my staff, or, you know, whatever the issue is, one

Melissa Kruger
way I’ve seen really helpful to enter in is to do some training in single gendered environments. So it matters a lot. Um, sometimes when both men and women are in a classroom, I mean, this has just been shown, the women will, won’t ask questions. And so that’s, you know, they just feel more intimidated in that environment. So one thing we used to do at our church is every quarter, we would actually have some women’s training nights, and we would have a topic, and the pastor would come and just teach on that topic. And it was always really interesting, because there were a lot more questions, there’s a lot more interaction. And it was a great way really appropriate way for the pastor to invest in the women in his church, to get feedback to hear their questions, because you know, what they’re asking tells you a lot, you know, and so it was this wonderful kind of interaction. I also saw, we, we used to do outreach, Bible studies in all of these different neighborhoods, my girlfriends, and I would do, and here’s what was happening, we were getting asked some theological curveballs because these women had never studied the Bible before. And so we started saying, we’re going to hold all these questions. And then every semester, we brought a pastor in, and we did ask the pastor to and so it was a great way these women wouldn’t go to our church, but we brought the pastor to them. And our pastors actually loved this. I mean, they said, it was like, their favorite thing. And it was so sweet. So they would come in and actually made these women then feel more comfortable going to the church, because the pastor had come to them first. But the pastor come in, and he get all these curves. Well, how could it even be perfect? If you could send I remember that being a long discussion, yeah, might have added the past year, whatever. And so it was just it was so great. And then they get to see a little bit of what we’re doing. And so let me say this to the women in the room, because there are a lot of women in here. Be willing to ask for these things. Sometimes it’s they’re very willing, but they don’t. Yeah, sometimes even even the pastors don’t want to overstep bounds to say, hey, we’d love for you to come do this. So think about ways how can you get men and women in the same room and maybe invite your pastor into something that would be really helpful?

Vanessa Hawkins
And sometimes they just simply not thought about it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so many of them would love to engage in that discussion. If they knew it was a need. Yes.

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, that’s right. And

Courtney Doctor
I would just add this at, you know, the same thing that we know somebody’s at time and money, right time and money, it’s always time and money. So I think when somebody is willing to invest in you with their time and their resources, you know, that you’ve been seen, and that you’re valued. And so showing up at the Bible study, being willing to have the conversations, but when a church is willing to budget for women’s training, whether that is sending a woman to seminary, or whether it’s having her do one of our cohorts, or, or sending her to a conference, a group of women are saying, this is important enough that we’re going to our church is going to fund five women going to this training event, whatever it is, that really speaks volumes to women. And then and then identifying knowing the women well enough to identify which ones are ready to go and they’re eager to maybe learn how to teach or they’re eager to learn how to how to participate in the Mercy ministry or whatever it is, are they being seen and prioritize through the calendar and the budget? So we wanted to open up especially practically

Melissa Kruger
on that they were going to be totally biased here and say, I mean, the best place they should come is next summer to TGC w 24. Women love them a budget to help them get here. Next up, we’re gonna

Courtney Doctor
be talking about that in the other room, and it just a little bit, yep, June 20 through 22nd. But we actually are really excited about it, because the whole purpose, the women’s initiatives exists to resource women in the local church. It’s why it’s why we exist at the gospel coalition. And so as ministry leaders in your local contexts, we are here to think of ways to resource you so it’s why we have produced these cohorts. It’s why we you know, write the books or the articles and it’s why we Put on the conference. And as we think about the content of the conference, we’re particularly thinking about ways that we can equip and train women for ministry, in their local church and in their local context. So we even though it’s self serving to say, we really do mean it, it’s a, it’s a place that if your church could send a group of women, we do prayerfully work very hard at trying to have it be a place where they will go home encouraged and equipped. So we would love to have them. So any before we open it up to questions, is there any last piece of just thought or advice or wisdom or encouragement that you would offer, as we we seek to steward this one half of the body? Well, and that can be particularly challenging in our contexts. One

Vanessa Hawkins
of the things I’ve seen that has been well, two things that I’ve seen that has been immensely encouraging from pastors, for me is to know what’s going on with women and their development in your church enough that you’re able to promote it, to know it well enough to know to be able to promote it to say that this is what’s going on, in women’s ministry. And this is how we’re seeing fruit from that, that is so much more powerful than a woman standing and saying that it’s really powerful to hear Pastor say that the other one is imitation. I’ve started mentoring initiatives in the church, that have taken off in a manner that I’ve had a pastor to come and say, Now show us how to do this for men. And so to be a part of the planning, so that and to think and to rethink it, and redesign it such that we could do something that gave us some, you know, some parity so that, you know, some equality will, you know, on both sides will men and women and to teach and train and encourage and to mentor the whole church in that way. And so that’s been really encouraging. So affirm well enough to be able to say, come and help us think about how to create what you’ve created. That’s also really, I think, encouraging. Yeah,

Melissa Kruger
I’ve had some pastors in my local area actually call me up and say, hey, could we get lunch, and I can just pick your brain about women’s ministry? I’ve done it with a lot of church plant leaders. And that just meant so much I was kind of like, oh, wow, you’re starting your church plant already thinking about how to do it. Yes, Sri. And that, like spoke volumes to me. I had I had a, I sat down with three pastors just a month ago, because they were getting ready to hire a woman on staff for the first time in their church. And they sent me the job description. And they said, Would you mind looking over it? And tell us, you know what you think about it? And I looked over and I was like, this is like, for women’s job?

Speaker 2
Yeah. Like it was I had that discussion before. And so it was, it

Melissa Kruger
was really helpful. I said, you know, you want her to be your executive pastor, your teaching pastor and your care, Pat. Yeah. And it was just like, they were like, what we hadn’t even realized, we were expecting of her way more than we might expect of any one pastor. And so it was easy for me to say it because I wasn’t in the game, so to speak, I was just outside console right coming in. So sometimes it’s just nice to get someone on the outside, to look in for you with some perspective and be able to help.

Courtney Doctor
I meet with a lot of the guys that we went to seminary with. And you know, it’s just so sweet to be able to speak into, and they just ask good questions. And it’s just, it’s honoring. But it’s exciting. And it’s partnership. And, and I love it. So we would love to see what’s on what’s on your minds. And again, it’s not going to be answers. It’ll be a response, but we would love to talk about it.

Melissa Kruger
And if we look a little like we don’t understand what’s being said, sometimes it’s hard to hear from the mic. So we’ll see how this goes. We are going to be like Listen. Yes.

Speaker 3
Thank you so much. This has been awesome. Your comment about going on the one on one walk was kind of an appropriate and intentional way for a pastor to invest in you as a staff member, kind of pivoting that thought into pastors interactions with just women throughout the church, and the way they communicate with women at the church think there might be a hyper caution, can I text this person can I so fostering that kind of communication being both appropriate, and yet intentional, but for people who aren’t stuff who they’re not with on a day to day basis? Any thoughts or on our advice for pastors who are trying to kind of engage that appropriate but intentional,

Vanessa Hawkins
I can say it’s not easy. I think it’s a very great question. And I would certainly say it’s not easy and you’re trying to walk a fine line between caring well for the sheep, because that involves some intimacy and some knowing, but also some accountability such that you’re carrying well for the sheep by and staying above reproach. Right. And so I think that is definitely its prayer every time. It is definitely a wisdom Question. And, and so I don’t know, I think it certainly takes people smarter than I am. But people are in your circle. And maybe that’s something that your staff and your leadership team helps you to thank for. But I think you don’t get to just, you know, fall it in and not care for women. But also you don’t get to not have accountability. And so it’s finding how those two fit together, and how that works for your environment. Yeah, I don’t know that I have anything prescriptive for everyone.

Melissa Kruger
If I can just say one thing on how to think through and I do not want to jump into hornet’s nest with the Billy Graham rule. But if I could just say one way to think about that is to remember Billy Graham was a traveling evangelist, he was actually not a pastor of a flock. So just as you’re thinking through rules, and how they think there is helpful sometimes to think, if you’re a pastor of a flock, I mean, it made a lot of his rules made a lot of sense when you’re traveling the country, and you want to look appropriate in a lot of spheres. But we do have to find ways. Yeah, and here’s what I will say about like email and texting and things like that. I just think it’s helpful to remember, those are all recorded. So if you do anything inappropriate in that way, there’s a record of it. I mean, one print is fierce. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s so so I think there’s natural accountability. Yeah. So to me, if you need to email a woman about the church picnic, or whatever, I mean, there’s a record of what you talked about. Actually, one on one, there’s no record of what you talked about. So I actually think of email and texting as actually safer, in some ways, a means of communication, just because here it is, this is what we said is good another and so just as you’re thinking through ways, you I think it’s totally appropriate to send an email to every woman in your flock or however you do it and saying, Hey, I’m praying for this for you this week. How can I pray for you? Yeah, that to me is okay. Everyone has to make their own decisions. But those are just some maybe ways to think about that’s what we’ve also

Courtney Doctor
heard from women that you know, it’s it can be painful when it’s an email or a text and the pastor elders wife is included on that, you know, you feel like, oh, that’s just, you know, it’s not then I, you know, it’s like, what, why did that happen? Like, why did I not feel safe in that or, you know, so there’s ways to, to maybe move towards healthy brother, sister, mother, son, Father, don’t you know, relationships, the way the Bible talks about the way we’re supposed to relate to each other? Okay, we’re gonna go back and forth. Yep. All right.

Vanessa Hawkins
I was just gonna say any rule that does not allow a pastor to shepherd a woman Well, or doesn’t allow a pastor to have a conversation with his flock member? I don’t know. I’m gonna say that that’s not a biblical construct. I don’t Yeah, I’m gonna say that that’s not biblical.

Speaker 4
I don’t know if this. Okay, here we go. So Vanessa, Melissa, and Courtney, thank you so much for taking the time to share with us. And when you just opened up today, some of these I have three quick questions. They could be yes or no answers, some takeaways that I took just from the opening of the session. One, the fact that you’re taking questions from us, my takeaway is in women’s ministry, it seems that women like to have everyone involved. Would that be correct? Or? No? Probably

Courtney Doctor
depends on the leadership style personality. Right, you know.

Speaker 4
So thank you for that. And then the response, not a q&a. I think this is a direct could be a direct or an indirect that women are. Don’t want mansplaining.

Vanessa Hawkins
So don’t want man and spoony.

Unknown Speaker
That is a true statement. Right there. Every woman in the room agrees with that one. Yeah.

Speaker 4
Thank you for sharing what your backgrounds were. Does this give credence that women want to be recognized as qualified to do ministry? In sharing your backgrounds?

Unknown Speaker
Thank you.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah. Would you agree with that?

Courtney Doctor
Oh, why we did those things? Yeah. So I would say that we gave our backgrounds because you, you need to know that we’ve had some experience in this that we’ve actually lived in this. We actually didn’t talk about academic credentials or anything like that. So So I think we were really just saying, what, what, why are we up here? What have we done to even have any experience in this? The Q and R is just something that I feel deeply I don’t like the the the power dynamic that can that can happen with especially in a room like this, where we’re doing the predominance of talking that we’re the experts, and that’s just not true. We’re all we’re all learning together. And so the Q and R is just something that I’ve become more passionate about in my own that I’m not the answer person. I’m not the expert. So yeah, so that would be okay. Thanks for asking that.

Speaker 5
So, our church is a very, very small church about 4050, on average on Sunday, and that’s including kids. So we don’t really at this moment, have a women’s ministry want to develop that? Right? certainly do. But until we can get the training done for the women and that kind of thing, and I’ve yet to find anybody that says, Yeah, I want to do that. So, but so you’re talking about the quarterly trainings, that where the pastor would come in and just, you know, on a quarterly basis, or what have you, and do that kind of thing? Like, I guess my question was simply, how long? How long are those quarterly trainings? Like just is it just a one night thing? Or is it like a success of nights? Or? Or like, successive weeks for like, a month or so I had it, that’s when I was training.

Unknown Speaker
Great. Where was it? Yeah, I

Melissa Kruger
would actually meet I’m sorry. I just have one more card

Speaker 5
towards women’s issues or towards anything, like just anything in general?

Melissa Kruger
That’s a great question. So it was actually toward anything. So we would actually meet my pastor and I, when I worked on staff, we’d meet once a month, but we would plan out the whole year, we’d have four years, so quarterly, because really, honestly, it was in the evening. That’s all people wanted to come to it anyway. And we would pick the topic. So I remember one time we did discernment, and we actually picked a really popular women’s book. And we took a chapter a popular woman’s book that had a lot of really bad theology. Actually, my pastor when he read it could not believe it. He was like, people, people publish this in the Christian space, you know, and, and yeah, and I was like, yes. And so And actually what he did, she didn’t he didn’t go through line by line. We had the women read it. And we had them figure out, yeah, what was wrong with it? And then he taught them, how do we how do we do discernment and different things like that. So we would do different topics? It could be Yeah, and it was it was different every year could be evangelism. Hey, how do you share your faith? Well, so it was it was a lot of different basic spiritual discipline topics and things like that just for one night. Yeah, it was just one night, a good two hours, we’d have you know, of course, we’d have snacks and goodies and all that. Ministry. Yeah, we would do that. And then it was just a great time, we’d have fellowship time. And then he said, We also gave him interaction time with the women, just the women in the room, and then we would do whatever the training was on. So thanks for asking.

Speaker 6
Would you all be willing to share about a time maybe you have hurt somebody in your flock and how you went about making men’s apologizing? Maybe you were just misunderstood, but I’d love some guidance on that.

Courtney Doctor
Oh, that’s great. So as a woman in ministry, when you’ve been the one to hurt happen, I have lots of examples

Vanessa Hawkins
of that. So that’s what I was.

Speaker 1
Exactly I have and as I was not allowed to answer this one.

Vanessa Hawkins
Time, Courtney.

Courtney Doctor
I mean, I’m sure this is gonna be really hard to believe, but I can be a little bit of a bull in a china shop. And so, you know, I’ve got an idea. And by golly, you know, it’s, we’re gonna get the idea done. And so I can hurt people in the process. And so when that becomes, too, it comes to my attention, or I become aware of it. Just move towards the person immediately, immediately. I mean, that’s, that’s, I’ve said this in so many different contexts, but the gospel always moves towards brokenness and hurt, right. That’s, that’s the direction of the gospel. So whenever there is hurt or brokenness, you just move towards it in humility, and honesty and questions and repentance, and, and praying for restoration and conversation. I mean, it’s Yeah, I think every single time, can I share? It me?

Melissa Kruger
Cash? No, I’m thinking of gathering grow. And the reason this would be hard to share, because you can kind of come off as the hero so I’m going to share it about her. You went to the whole women’s team after that event, and I think you I think you said you’d had like a negative attitude. Just you know, it’s hard when you’re planning some of these events. We’re, we’re, we’re always, they’re always hard. There’s always stuff that goes on. And what I was so impressed that Courtney did as a leader is she went to her whole team, and she said, I need to apologize to you all. And I was just like, Oh, my goodness, what she is teaching them in this moment, is more formative than anything else. That probably happened this weekend, because you were just so humble. And you went before then you’re like, I’m just I’m checking myself. I’m sorry. I did that. Yeah. And it was it was something that easily could have been over a lot. I mean, yeah, we’re just like, Oh, we’re all stressed or whatever. And you were just

Courtney Doctor
most of my ministry has occurred through repentance. Yes. So you know, I’m sorry. And I’m

Melissa Kruger
so beautiful to say, Please don’t. Afterwards, she’s gonna confront me, I’m gonna have to come.

Speaker 1
We have to go make an announcement together. So we’ll see how well we’re actually no.

Vanessa Hawkins
Yeah. Okay, so I’m just looking for the last one. So I think the last big one was, when I had just moved to New York, I had a couple, a lady who was having some really real marital issues. The same day, it was the celebration, my daughter was about to leave town and ready to hit for college. And so it was just, it was a lot going on. And I’m still learning how to navigate the city. And so I didn’t really know how to get to from where I was meeting this lady who really needed my full time and my attention. And to get to my daughter’s thing on time, because I had given my word that I would be there. And so I was just feeling pressed. And so what I generally do in those type of situations is I sit down, and I’ll tell the person I’m setting my alarm, because I want to give you my full attention for this many minutes. But when my alarm sounds, I have a quick exit. And I failed to do that in my haste. And so my lift was coming, and I had to get to my next thing, and she was kind of in her story in a place where it wasn’t convenient to leave. And I had kind of delayed and delayed and delayed and, and so I wasn’t fully present. And I just I felt horrible about it forever. But anyway. So she stormed out, she was really upset with me and as as she should have been. And, and so I pursued her, I pursued her I mean I would I would text. And she would never she wouldn’t respond, she wouldn’t respond, and it was okay. But I would continue regularly to text and say I’m praying and would follow up and follow up. And and when something like that happens, that person becomes your prayer assignment to because we’ll want just confession and repentance. But also, they become your assignment that they don’t become hardened by, you know, what you’ve done to them, you know, the pain you’ve been you inflicted. And so but anyway, long story short, over some It took months, but I kept pursuing her and she finally came around when she needed to talk. And so I would just say, Man, Jesus pursues us like crazy. And so you got to be willing to when you hurt people, you got to be willing to say I’m sorry. And in a meaningful way, and to keep pursuing them. Yeah, that’s what I would say. That was very helpful. Yeah, thanks. We, we try so hard not to hurt God’s people, but we do it.

Speaker 7
similar line of thinking. So I’m going to ask this for my husband, because I’m the pastor’s wife, and I’m traumatized by conflict. So I don’t think I can answer him on how to handle this. But what do you do? If you find out there is something being taught in women’s ministry? That’s not okay. How do you approach that woman with love? Because I think I would cry no matter what he told me if I was the one in that position. But how do you handle that with

Unknown Speaker
grace and love of?

Speaker 7
I don’t like this, what you’re teaching. I don’t want you to teach this anymore. How do you handle that?

Vanessa Hawkins
I acknowledge that. I think that you create a culture where you’re having those conversations all the time so that it’s not a big scary conversation. And so if you have a culture of you’re already talking about what’s going on in women’s ministry, then there is no I found out this was happening. It’s, you know, this is what’s happening women’s ministry, because we talked about it. And so it’s it’s having building a culture that allows you to have those regular check ins, such that you’re not out there, you know, that there’s you know, you’re not out there on your own doing your own thing, but you’ve got a relationship and those conversations are happening.

Speaker 2
So starting at Ground Zero, basically I’m sorry. So starting at Ground Zero, basically yeah, it’s

Vanessa Hawkins
it’s building I think building a culture of that. Yeah.

Courtney Doctor
I think that’s part of pastoral oversight is knowing what’s happening in the different and having a say on the front end. Yeah, like bring I don’t think I ever put a curriculum before we steal. We run everything past leadership and just yeah, we weren’t we weren’t different. We need our vantage. But yeah, have have them have him speak into it on the front end, is, you know, probably the long term solution. And

Vanessa Hawkins
yeah, if you’re a women’s leader, just even for your own covering, make sure you run it by someone even you know, if you’re trained in it, you know, seminary trained, whatever, still run it by someone and get leadership’s approval of have them speak into it or maybe they’re able to even add something or enhance it as this, you know, as a team has a shared approach to caring for

Melissa Kruger
the sheet. Yeah. And that models that we need each other. Absolutely. Yeah. So it’s, I can love your eyes on this. Yes. Yeah. I mean, that’s just a good model. Yes. ways for us to be asking them. And actually, yeah, really pulling at them to be involved in what we’re doing. That’s a good thing. Because our our ministry to women is better when it’s done with men, and I think Men’s Ministry, man is better wisdom with women.

Unknown Speaker
involved. Absolutely.

Speaker 8
Thank you. Yep. Yeah. Hello, hi, sure. I’m not sure if you can hear me there. So we are in a great congregation where the male male, personal mentorship is exploding. Oh, grand, it’s beautiful to see and they’re being trained up and sent out. But the female personal mentorship is a little bit lacking. And so could you speak, I think you spoke a little you mentioned mentorship initiative. Could you give us maybe some more details, vision for like, what that looks like? How do you go forward? And

Vanessa Hawkins
yeah, I would appreciate that. I will be doing a cheap imitation of Melissa Krueger. So who wrote growing together? So I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna pitch that one to Melissa.

Melissa Kruger
This was a huge thing for my heart when I came into women’s ministry. And it took me three or four years to finally actually get to implement something that could work. How do you connect women? How do you do discipleship for women in the local church? And home as well just direct you. There’s so there’s so much but I would just say try to find ways to connect older and younger women. And I would try to connect them seasonally. Do you have older women insurance? Because some churches don’t. So I say that right?

Speaker 8
Many, but right now the older women, I think, mainly see their selves in a capacity of like a large Bible study. But as far as that life on life, personal kind of thing. It’s more the youngers and the younger is that like, you know, the new moms teaching the new mom. Yeah, yeah. So maybe not so much the season, or, you know, widows even teaching the younger? Well, here’s

Melissa Kruger
my idea in that situation. I would I just always warn against saying to an older woman, hey, will you mentor me? Yeah, that question for us all is like, Oh, dear. What does she want from me? And I’m terrified. Yeah. Because it’s like, what does that mean? Are we linked for the rest of our lives? I don’t know. And so what I what I like to the question, I think that’s really wise to ask us. Could we get coffee? And could I ask you these three specific questions that’s fair to the older woman, and it’s less overwhelming. I have sat at coffee with people for three hours, and I leave and I’m like, I don’t know why we were here. I don’t know what she wanted to talk to me about. And I’m scared. I am completely scared. I failed her. I have no idea why we were here. But when a woman comes to me and says, Hey, I really want to talk to you about how you mothered in the younger years. Can I ask you these questions? I am there and I’m like, okay, yes, let’s do it. I have an hour and a half. But let’s do it. So I think on the younger woman being creative, and how you ask for that is a really helpful thing. I also think it’s good to say, hey, there are four of us. We really want to be discipled. In prayer, will you walk through this book with us for nine months, once a month on Tuesday night at 7pm? We will start at seven we will end at nine we will be there. We will have done our homework, we will be on time? Will you do that for us? I think they will say yes, I really do. And so coming with what you need for spiritual growth, I think really can help.

Speaker 8
But so so I am kind of, I’m very type A and so I got that part. But like the other sisters in the church, like I got my questions always ready, you know, and I’m always looking for people. But like my other sisters in the church who maybe don’t know how to ask those questions. Like, do I talk to our pastors and see, I’m not sure are pastors, they’re so thoughtful, and I’m sure they’re just waiting for somebody else to really like, they like for their people to do the work. They don’t want to be the pastor’s always doing the work for the people. And so, like, do I talk to them? Do I? How do I get the other because I don’t think I don’t think all the younger moms or younger ladies always know what they don’t know. They don’t know that they even need it. Maybe they think that getting alongside another, you know, 19 year old girl is enough. And that’s good in its own way. But we need those who are seasoned in the day and in life and how to

Courtney Doctor
resource them you got to give them the structure to do it. So pick up a book like growing together or have a Saturday afternoon where you say, hey, this can look a lot of different ways but let’s put some parameters on it and you know, and and do Just define it, equip them, give them resources, and and then a compelling reason biblically on why, you know, we need to be doing life on life ministry with each other.

Vanessa Hawkins
So one of the things that I did just as a quick thing was you got to feed people I keep telling you about this ministry of snacks. So no, we would have, we would seriously I would have a dinner and I wouldn’t I invited every woman in our church, and our church is very young. So we’ve got some older saints, but we are we’re very young church, but inviting every woman to come to dinner. And, and so in that time trying to give some structure to what, what mentorship could look like. And a lot of the principles were from growing together, but to say, to try to dispel all of the fears that people are going to bring about mentoring, you know, I got passed, or, you know, what do you want from me, you know, and so trying to anticipate what some of those questions are and teach to that. And then also to teach to, you know, mentees, and then and then to also set the expectation that there won’t be enough older women to younger women. And in those cases, we’ll do prayer partnerships, and we’ll be responsible for each other’s discipleship, we’ll be accountability partners, and helping each other grow. And so you know, so something like that might be a way to get you go in. That’s good. Thank you. Yeah.

Speaker 9
Well, I’m actually going through growing together with an older woman. And then also with a small group of girls, I lead our young adult women’s ministry at our church. And so this group is mostly new believers of single lower 20s. And so a lot of them through that that chapter about the local church, we did a spiritual gifts assessment and just encourage them to kind of plug in where their gifting is. A lot of them actually have the spiritual gift of shepherding. And so what are some good opportunities to provide young adult women in the church with the gift of shepherding, particularly if they are not on church staff?

Melissa Kruger
That’s good. That’s really good. I mean, I think shepherding can one take a lot of different viewpoints. I mean, in some ways, I mean, it can be just a ministry of care. So I think of a younger woman, you know, in the church, there are always one younger women to be shepherding. So, I love the 20 somethings in my church, who have invested in my 16 year old daughter, it means so much to me, like I have this one girl who’s now been taking my daughter lunch, she’s just been caretaking my daughter and I say thank you. Because, you know, sometimes she does not want to listen to me because she shepherded me. But But these women who are pouring back in it means it means so much. But I also think, can I just say this to every all of us in the church, our pastors are really discouraged, and shepherding can go upward. And what I mean by that is, maybe it’s hey, let’s make cookies for our pastoral team and take a man like, yeah, we can shepherd that way we can you can text or email or whatever way appropriate your pastor and say, hey, I want to pray for our church. Well, prayer is shepherding. I want to do that. So I think even be creative about how can I love this church? Well, even holistically, because I think prayer is something that everyone can do if you’re, you know, five years old in the church, and it’s a shepherding ministry, or if you’re, you know, 88 in the church, we

Courtney Doctor
cannot do that. We are a minute over, but you have been standing there. So yes, we wouldn’t hear a question when you hear.

Speaker 10
I have a great Women’s Leadership Team for women’s ministry. They’re getting to an age where they’re looking for younger leadership to step up, and everyone seems maxed out any wisdom. Yes,

Courtney Doctor
this is like my I love this. You have to create space at the table. We cannot. We cannot keep the leadership in a certain age demographic, and then think why are the younger women not showing up? They need a seat at the table. They need to be on the teaching team with a lot of feedback, they need to be in the decision making. We need to be saying Why is nobody coming to the retreats anymore? Why is nobody coming to the Bible studies anymore? And our our 20 year old sisters are going to have a lot of wisdom on that. Yeah. And so give whatever demographic is missing from any part of your women’s ministry. Look and see are they at the table and create a space for them there.

Unknown Speaker
That’s great closing was okay.

Unknown Speaker
Thank you all so much.