Hope and Help for Women’s Ministry

The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

Ligon Duncan
So I want to ask each of you a question. And I’m not sure where I’m supposed to start. We may have talked about where I was supposed to start. But this is just a personal question, who, or maybe what book has made you want to be a better theologian, Nancy?

Nancy Guthrie
Well, I think back to my college days, and I can remember the first assignment in Bible doctrines class. And it’s interesting thing about now that I do these biblical theology workshops, because really, he was sending me the assignment was to write a paper on the glory of God using no nothing other than the Bible. And so essentially, he was sending me to search out the glory of God in the scriptures, and that Bible college professor eat, and even that assignment itself, I think, has sent me on a, on a theological pursuit, I got a job right out of college working in Christian publishing. And so I was working with a lot of authors and their materials, some good and some maybe not so sound. And so I think that drove me to always be trying to not only learn how to communicate the truth, but figure out the nuances between what really aligns with the Scriptures, and what doesn’t. Probably, though, a very significant experience was the loss of my children, and that two of my children have died of a loving son also. But, you know, I just remember so clearly after my daughter died, going back to the Bible, and at that point, what I was in my late 30s, mid 30s, and I’d studied the Bible really my whole life, but everything sounded different. And I felt like in many ways, I had to go back to kindergarten to under really understand the Bible. I read it all through that lens. And there were things that didn’t make sense. And so those are some influences on me that have caused me to want to be understand more clearly who God is and what he’s doing in the world, which is what I would say what theology is.

Ligon Duncan
Lee, you have been extensively involved in the event you started our teaching women to teach initiative at RTS will end? What, who was the influence on you what what had been the things that poured into you that made you want to pour in other people?

Leigh Swanson
Well, you mentioned your mom. And I would say that when I had kids, it was my kids who really drove me to think more deeply about theology and what was true. I wasn’t raised in a Christian home. So I hadn’t had a mom as a conversation partner in that way. So I really wanted to be able to be that for my kids. But what I realized as they got older, the questions got harder. And I didn’t want to just tell them what to believe, although that’s important, but I also wanted to be sure I could explain to them why and how it how I got to that conclusion where that was in the Bible, why we would interpret it this way. And so I didn’t want to just give the, an answer. I wanted to give the context or the backdrop for the answer. And that just became, like I said, As I got older, more challenging. My middle son was diagnosed with cancer when he was 21. And so that was just an example of a time when my child was driving me to be, you know, a better communicator of what the truth was, because he had, as you can imagine, a lot of questions, a lot of questions, I would say, primarily my kids. But then I also had a mentor when I was a young pastor’s wife and a woman named Betty Taylor, who just modeled what it looked like to pour into younger women in the church. Kay Arthur had actually mentored her through precept. And my husband’s first church was in Chattanooga. So Kay Arthur had had it, of course, a huge influence there. And it was just so interesting to me to see this generational, you know, passing down, have a desire to know theology and be a better theologian.

Ligon Duncan
Melissa, do you want to become a better theologian? Is there a person or persons or?

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, in some ways, it was similar to what you all said in this sense. When I started college as a freshman, my brother had encouraged me actually to join us for it to be a light beer. He said, I want you to go in there and I want you to share your faith, people he knew me. He knew I love the Lord. And he was like, you’re gonna just be in a Christian huddle all during college. Yeah, he’s like this would be good. And I realized as I was having conversations with non Christians, my answers weren’t good enough. Yeah. So you’re having, you know, the best thing about evangelism is you realize your own faith gets challenge. And I realized, if I want to, if I’m in this is true, if I’m going to base my life on this, I better have a good reason. And in the process, I also met this guy. And his name’s Mike. And I watched him and he would go up on Franklin Street, which was the main street in our in our college town, and he every Friday night would spend his Friday night sharing the gospel with people. And I watch what drove his theology was his love for people. And he knew how to give an answer that I didn’t know how to give. And I’ve watched him do this through our whole marriage. And I, I’m always amazed, it is actually compassion for the loss that makes us want to know what we believe. So we can share our faith with them in a way that hits whomever they are, wherever they are, whatever, what what, what is keeping you from belief, I want to understand I want to be able to tell you about this guy, but I have to know this God, if I’m going to tell you about him. And then you know, it’s the kid thing. I can remember when my five year old Emma, she’s at this conference, she fell off her bike. And this was her theological question. If God knows everything we had taught her, God knows everything, God can do everything. Why did he let me fall off my bike? Okay, this is the problem of evil for a five year old. And so these are the things that drove me I was like, it matters what I know. And my ability to actually love. Because we it’s loving to be able to share God with people in a theologically thoughtful way. That’s

Ligon Duncan
good. Now, I want everybody to kind of pile in on these questions. But I’ll start off with Elvis, start right back with Melissa, let’s say, you say what you’ve just said to somebody, you’re in a group, you’re in a church or whatever. And a woman says Back to you, I don’t really need to know theology. I’m not I don’t want to be a pastor, Bible teacher. What do you say? Yeah,

Melissa Kruger
yeah, I mean, a lot of ways. What I just said, in the sense of the study of God is not something it’s a one and done. You know, I think sometimes like, oh, and I think this can actually be particularly true in our reform community. Sometimes you think, Oh, I have all the right answers. So I’ve kind of checked the box. I make it a habit of reading scripture in a year on a regular basis. And you’ll every time, I’m struck by how much I don’t know about God, and how every time I’m challenged in ways that I need to be challenged my hardest challenge. And so the study of God, that’s all theology is, to me is the pursuit of God. And if this is a relationship, this is a relationship that changes me in it. And so I guess I just want to say, that’s like kind of saying, Well, I don’t really want to eat ice cream. Yeah, right. I don’t want to enjoy life. Okay, well, if you don’t want to enjoy life, well then don’t study theology. But this is the best subject. This is the subject of eternity

Ligon Duncan
when one famous theologian defined theology as the Science of Living blessedly ever after. So you don’t want to live blessedly Ever After scrap the algae? How about leave you hear this every once in a while?

Leigh Swanson
I do. And when people say it, I think they don’t actually understand what theology is, it’s a mistake to say you don’t need it is a misunderstanding of what it is. You know, as I understand the ology, it’s, you know, theology tells us what’s true. And today, more than ever, you know, we need not only to know what’s true, but in my own life, I need to be reminded of what’s true. Because of the sin in my own life, and the messages that the world gives us. I need to be reminded over and over and over about what’s true. So one of my old theology professors said that theology is wisdom about God and all things in relation to God. And when, you know, when you understand that theology is wisdom, and the source of truth, then no one can say they don’t need that. So I try to start by if somebody says that saying, Let me tell you what theology actually is, and then I think people realize who everybody needs to know what’s true.

Nancy Guthrie
That’s good, Nancy. Well, But for one thing, I mean, as soon as you get your little child on using, teach them saying Jesus loves me this I know you’re doing theology whether or not you know it or not, because the will who? Who is Jesus? And what does that love look like? And why do you say he loves you? In what way? Does he love you? Has he singled you out to love? And how do you know that? And so? So, theology is the basis for any talk about God. But also I just think, you know, what, what is what is that great command to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength? And, you know, if I said to you, I love my husband, but I don’t really want to know him. Man, like, it makes no sense. No, knowing him in is the basis and the substance and the joy, that love flourishes as I know him. And I would say, if the, if what God has called us to, is to love the Lord, well, we’ve got to know him. And that’s simply what theology

Ligon Duncan
is. And to flip that around, you know, If a man says, I want to love you, but I’m not interested in knowing anything about what you think or what you lie, or, you know, I don’t want to listen to you. I don’t want to talk to you mean, probably that relationships going to where it’s going nowhere, right? So if we want to know God, and we’re told that we’re made to know God, and one of the great blessings of the new covenant is, they all know me from the greatest beliefs, then you need to know about God. And the thing about God is, you can only know what he reveals about himself. We can relate to that even at a at a at a personal relational level. You know, I tell guys, when they’re getting married, you think that you have her heart. But actually, what you have is a chance to have her heart. And so it takes an investment, and then she has to disclose herself to you. And it’s the same thing with God, God discloses himself to us. I mean, how do you know God? He’s infinite, we’re finite, only as he discloses himself. So theology, just paying attention to God’s self disclosure, and trying to learn what God says about himself so that we know them. And I think it’s important for us to realize that dimension to our spiritual life is dependent upon theology. That doesn’t mean that you have to pursue academic theology, etc. But all of us are theologians, the only question is, are you a good one or a bad one? You know, are you? Or is your is your thinking aligned with the Bible about what God has revealed in the Bible or not? You all have probably seen leaders that have done a good job of encouraging the theological growth of women in their church, and then some folks who probably neglected that. How, how would you encourage people in leadership in Bible believing local churches, to encourage their women to grow theologically?

Nancy Guthrie
Well, when pastors asked me that one, one thing I asked him about is, you know, they probably have books they’re reading, but maybe they only talk to their elders, about the books they’re reading and discuss. And so I think the most important thing is interact with your women. Like they have a heart and mind for theology. And, and women, we respond to that we respond to being treated like we have a heart and brain for theology. And so what is that going to look like? So that’s going to look like asking her what have you been reading lately? Or, Oh, you’re you’re helping lead the women’s Bible study on Mark, what commentaries are using which ones new finding helpful mean, that’s the way you would likely interact with a with a male leader in your church. So do that with encourage that and along with that, when she says she’s reading, say, some, I think I’ll read that. I’d like to read that and then let’s discuss it. That’s a way to both demonstrate that you really value her theological thinking and development and turn that into a conversation that’s encouraging to her.

Ligon Duncan
That’s good Lee, how do we encourage this?

Leigh Swanson
I would say that one way that we I have typically chosen to motivate women towards theology is by emphasizing application. And one of the things that I experienced at RTS as a student was pointing people to our, the ultimate reason for theology, the ultimate purpose of theology. You of course, know the famous John John frame, quote, that theology is the application of Scripture to all of life, which is, of course, true. But my other theology, Professor Scott Swain would always remind us that theology doesn’t just serve practical ends. It also serves the ultimate end. And, you know, in John 17, Jesus in his, in the high priestly prayer, he says, This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God. And that, you know, theology actually doesn’t just serve us practically. But it it prepares us for our chief end, which, of course, is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. So that was something to me, that was really an aha, because I’d always been challenged theologically, because I needed to know things for their application. But when I went to RTS, I was challenged. Knowing God isn’t just about application, it’s about what I made for. And my ultimate purpose. Sounds good. Well, listen,

Melissa Kruger
I this is a little bit of a different answer. But I do think how we think about Christian education in the church really matters. I think it is right and good for a pastor to stand up. And I use this term, I don’t mean that this is what he’s doing, and use the lecture style of teaching when he gives a sermon. But all week, the way people actually learn best. So basic pedagogy, like had the learning triangle is when they start interacting with the material, it can be visually, it can be auditory, it can be discussion. And then the best way you actually learn something, when I was a teacher, I taught high school math, the best way my kids learned was when they started to teach someone else. So one of the best ways we can grow theologically, is actually to teach ourselves. And so this is actually encouragement for both men and women leaders in the church. It’s really tempting, if you’re in charge of your women’s ministry, to always pick a curriculum that doesn’t require a lot of work. If we don’t work, we will never grow. And I know you women can work hard, because I see people at the gym, and they are doing really are doing box jumps. And you’re just all these things, and you’re running marathons, and you’re doing hard things. And so I think we have to say we can do hard things as women and we can actually, and I’m not against curriculums, I’ve done teaching curriculums, but at some point, we’ve got to stop borrowing from others. And if it’s 12 women, you can do this, you could, you will only grow in your teaching by actually teaching. You cannot just come to all of our workshops a million times and learn how to teach, step up to the plate, do it if it’s one on one, do it you will work theologically the most when you start pouring out to others,

Nancy Guthrie
you know, like and as you as we talk about how to encourage women, theologically, I think one of the biggest, one of the greatest encouragers of women theology is someone we’re sitting here with, which is ligand Duncan, I mean, you are a great, you have encouraged me over and over again, even before I met you, you tweeted something about me that deeply encouraged me. So thank you for that. And so you and as head of this seminary organization, you you lead by example, in that regard, but I just like to turn the question on you, you’ve asked us how to develop so I wonder, as you train men, many of whom are very awkward with women or are unsure about how some of their young man’s on situations, right? And they’re going to be interacting with all these women and what they’re going to do. How do you encourage men heading into ministry to encourage theological development women,

Ligon Duncan
you know, at the church level, for 17 years when I was the pastor at First Presbyterian Church in Jackson, it had a strong tradition of teaching women in the church, which really went all the way back to Jean Patterson, who was the wife of the pastor there in the late 1960s. Through the 1970s. She was an outstanding Bible teacher. She did basically expository Bible teaching for women in the Congress. Goshen at 600 women coming from churches, all over the city, a lot of people being converted in the Bible studies, a lot of people getting excited about the Bible for the first time. And so I had that tradition at First pres, but my director of Christian education was Donna Dobbs and and Donna invited dancy to come teach at first Pres. Donna was really investing herself in the women in in that we had a number of gifted women that were good at Bible teaching. And they had carried on this legacy that went all the way back to Jane Patterson. But Donna would invite me to come to the teacher training every year before the semester Bible study started. And it she was cueing me up to it. All I had to do was show up, teach the Bible to the to the women that were going to be teaching the Bible to the women. And they felt like wow, the pastor cares about what we’re doing. You know. And so, thank God, for women that are involved in that part of the administration of the church’s ministry that can cue your pastors up, all you have to do is just show up and encourage the people that are doing it. And they know that Pastor actually cares about this. And then what I tried to tell the guys is you could not find a greater ally in the church than theologically trained women. I mean, my mom was I watched my mom support our pastors growing up. And because of her knowledge, she was a greater support to our pastors growing up,

Nancy Guthrie
she’s probably a better encourage of her of his sermons than any other she’s really listening

Ligon Duncan
intelligently, and specifically and theologically on things that he was doing. Absolutely. And so I just, I tried to tell the guys this is something you want to invest in, because especially for those of us who were committed to a vision of complementarity in relationships between men and women, I tell my guys, you’ve you’ve got to be seen as the person who values most the women of your congregation because the world is saying, they don’t really value you. And you know, unless you follow this other view of how men and women aren’t real, they don’t really value. Well, we have to actually disprove that by the way, we relate to one another. And by the way, we value one another. And so that’s one of the things that I tell the guys in seminary, you can’t you won’t get more supportive folks in your church. And the fact of the matter is, it’s often easier to the women of the congregation interested in theology men have to be weaned off of other truther avocations. Okay. And there’s certain things that are built in, I think, really into the hard wiring of women’s lives that make them they’re more ready to jump into this kind of deep, rich study. And I have to do more persuading, but one of the things I can then say to the men at first, Pres, it was certainly true to us that men, if you’re not studying your Bible, let me tell you, I know 600 Women who are and you know, so you better be in there studying your because they need to be able to respect you. And so, those are some of the things, Nancy, that’s a that’s a great question. And for you pastors in the room, we do need to be thinking about this as as we make a case for this. You, we’ve mentioned the sort of the women’s ministry that was sort of aimed at the applicational or the practical let me do a sort of a a different kind of angle. It used to be that women who are interested in growing theologically primarily leaned into their pastors or denominational seminaries as resources. Today, there are a lot of voices speaking into the theological development of women. Is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? Melissa, let’s start with you.

Melissa Kruger
It’s a complicated thing. Yeah. Maybe that’s a way to say it, because it means it’s amazing the resources we have now. Yeah, right. I mean, I just wanted to tell you, you can go on the gospel coalition website. And you can learn all about ancient Ephesus, for free. So when you’re it can age your Bible reading. Yes. So the internet has lots of great things that it offers us that we would have spent 1000s of dollars to get those commentaries, you know, I mean, so it’s, it’s really amazing what we have, but we also have women, you know, I’m gonna say women because this is primarily a female audience who are selling you a false theology out there and they are persuasive. I read one book by a woman and it was under the Christian living category, and I read it And I was like, this is the most works based book, it was a best seller. And it was telling you, your life is up to you. And it was, it was shrouded in. So get up and do it. And I realized I was like, this is the gospel of self help, and it was just selling off. You know, it was just selling and selling and selling. And it broke my heart because we’re not discerning enough because we’re not in our Bibles enough to say, this is anti gospel, and it is killing us as women. So it’s gonna get you on a bad theology is going to get you on a trajectory that will wear you out will exhaust you and will steal life from you, God will fill you fulfill you, and He will always lead you in paths of righteousness that are a life and goodness. And so we need less time on our phones, looking at people who may be look perfect and are selling you all this stuff. We need time in our in the word listening to Jesus, and that that just cannot be replaced. And so I’m not saying be off the internet. But I’m just saying you have to be in the Word. It will be it will guard you for whatever places you go. Sorry. That was my little passion.

Ligon Duncan
Strike. Oh, yeah. So sorry.

Leigh Swanson
Lee Yeah, well, and bad theology isn’t just on the internet. Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s also on podcasts. And it’s in books. And I can remember we had a situation at church, you know, women will recommend books to other women. And that’s often how bad theology gets passed around. And there was a book that an influential woman in our church had read, and she was encouraging other people to read it. I hadn’t read it yet. But there was kind of a push to oh, this, this should be a book study at church for the next fall. And so I picked it up and started reading it chapter one, okay, chapter two, okay, chapter three, okay, they’re calling, they’re putting pressure on me to say, you know, thumbs up, let’s do it. And I hadn’t finished the book yet. And I got to chapter eight, and then chapter nine. And things were getting ready to go to print that this was the book we were going to study in the fall. And I just saw some things that were huge red flags. And I called some of these other women, and none of them had actually read the whole book, before they started recommending it. And I just what is happening, but I nearly did the same thing. I mean, I had gotten almost to the end and was a and felt the pressure to go ahead and give the okay, and then finished reading it, thankfully. But we do we have to be so careful. We have to teach people how to actually vet resource material. And, and that means reading the book to the end. I

Nancy Guthrie
think we both we all just want to know what these books were.

Ligon Duncan
Spill the beans, don’t waste.

Nancy Guthrie
I don’t have anything great to add to those really great answers. But I guess I would just say one thing we have to be aware of, and I’m not saying anything any, either. I know the women know this, but I know we have a lot of male church leaders here as well. And that is I remember saying to a pastor years ago, he’s, it’s been years now. But he said, What is it? I don’t know that I should know? Okay, well, here’s what you should know. What you should know, is who the personalities, speakers, teachers, whatever are that, if you say something that contradicts what they are teaching, the women in your church will believe that person and not you be because, you know, the pastor, what does he got, you know, 30 minutes a week, right? And, but maybe there is podcast reading and the power of social media. So with our audience today, I guess I would just say, you know, people are going to bubble up that everybody’s listening to, and I think you can’t immediately start condemning and picking at, but I do think especially if you’re in leadership, that you’ve got to be willing to dive in to what that person is teaching and espousing so that you are equipped, but it’s probably not going to help to just admit, you know, pull the guns out and just start shooting, but you’re probably gonna have to figure out a way you know, here’s some things this person is saying. I can see why this person’s appealing, and I can see what the what this message resonates. But here’s where we need to be careful. And the truth is that That’s where theological growth comes, you know, I just finished working on a study on x and and in X, you’ve got these huge conflicts that come up in the church specifically, you know, this one that leads to the Jerusalem Council. And it’s a, it’s a theologically constructive conflict, isn’t it? Because it clarifies the true gospel. And so we can, we don’t just want to be shooting down people, but use those kinds of things as opportunities to clarify the gospel.

Melissa Kruger
Can I say one follow up on this, and this is a true story from my friend Angela, who works at RTS before she was in ministry and working with with them, she worked as a bank teller. And this was a fascinating thing, the way they teach you to spot a counterfeit, is actually the first month that she worked at the bank, all they show you is real money. And you have to sit there and you have to look at real money, and they look, they teach you all these signs. And every day, you’re only looking at real money, only looking at real money, only looking real money. And then about a month in, they start slipping and counterfeits. And she said immediately you can recognize it, you’re I had become so attune to see what is true, you can spot what was false. And here’s the problem. Counterfeits can be a million different ways. So you can always come up with a new way to be a counterfeit, there’s only one way to be true. And so they had taught them how to see what was true. So they could spot what was false. There are going to be a million counterfeits on the internet. If we’re going to again, see what is true, we have to be in truth so that we can immediately spot was the only way to get that spidey sense of like that’s off, you know, is to is to be seeing what’s true over and over and over again. That’s good.

Ligon Duncan
Now, let me just piggyback on what we’ve already been talking about because of these different voices speaking in a lot of them through the internet. How is the changing culture impacting the discipleship of women? And especially consider social media and these other influences? I’ll start with you, Melissa?

Melissa Kruger
Yeah, I think, yeah, I’m just a big proponent of find the older woman in your church. And, you know, talk to her, it’s really tempting to go to the really polished online voice or the, you know, the person who can teach, amazingly, and that’s a blessing that we have these resources. But there is something about sitting in a living room with an older woman, I can remember an older woman in my life, I’d get in the car with her. And I knew I would only have her for a little bit, but I knew her kids all still liked being around her. And I would get in the car and be like, why don’t your kids also like you? And one of my friends, donors, she’s like, when you get in the car with Congress, you have your questions ready. I was like, I know, I this is my moment. And that’s life on life. And, you know, I still get together with kindness. And now my kids are all that age. And she’s a real person in my real life. And I think we look at the model Jesus, it was real people in his real life he invested in 12, in the world was changed. So you know, as we invest in people, if you’re a woman who’s investing in people, you don’t have to invest in 1000s, invest in like three, and just invest in them and love them. I mean, that that is the power of life transformation. So I just, it’s great to get good teaching from a lot of places, but just don’t neglect the older women in your church who have a lot to teach you,

Ligon Duncan
Lee. Yeah,

Leigh Swanson
I, you know, there’s no shortcut it for growing in wisdom. But I’m always looking for the shortcut, because I’m busy. And it’s a lot easier to multitask and listen to podcasts, from somebody while I’m cooking dinner or on a walk. And I’m always trying to do two things at once. But going and sitting with an older woman who for me was Betty and my first church and Joyce and my second church. Those when I think about my own growth, those those were the seasons of profound growth. Because I was taking the time to invest in a relationship in the context of theological mentoring and teaching. So yeah, that’s a good reminder for me to that’s

Unknown Speaker
what was the question?

Ligon Duncan
How do you see the culture chain change that we’ve been talking about social media is impacting the discipleship of women in the local church?

Nancy Guthrie
Well, I know how it’s impacting me. And that is that I, I have an embarrassing ly more and more limited attention span. Like I sit at my desk and I’m trying to think deeply about something you know, perhaps or write about it. And like I just want to go look at Facebook, you know, are very quickly, you know, I want to go get something to drink, I think an impact but, and I find that even we got in the car yesterday to drive up here. And I opened a book that honestly is I started reading, I thought this is the most fascinating book I have read in ages. And yet I really struggled to just stay tuned in because I think I think social media has really shortened my ability to focus. And so I guess I would just say personally, I’m just having to fight against that and to keep encouraging myself to invest in reading. And and I guess Can I just relate that to what we’re talking about today we’re talking about the theological development of women. And we’re here representing RTS for which I am so grateful for what I have. And I’m learning from RTS and I know, my friends would say the same thing. But I would just say, you know, there are a lot of women who think I’m either never going to be able to go to seminary, you know, or I’m never gonna have the money for it, whatever, I would just say, read good books, read good books, I think most of my theological education as grateful as I am, for what have received RCS, some of it has been books I’ve been assigned to read from RTS and, and another seminary. But I would just for most of my life before even started seminary, I was already writing books. But it was from reading good books. And, you know, not just lightly reading but really digging in to try to understand something so. So I would just say to any woman here who’s who is seeking to grow theologically, maybe you don’t have the big book, big book budget, hopefully, you know, somebody has a great library, you know, I can think of a couple of pastors, including my current pastor, he laughed at me so hard, he came in between services a time recently, and I was like, on the floor, going through his section on a particular book of the Bible, because I was getting ready to work on it. And he just started laughing so hard. But first of all, he’s given me the freedom to do that. And I’m really good at returning them. That’s the key. That’s the key to be able to be a good borrower. But read good books, you can learn so much from reading good books.

Melissa Kruger
And legan is all of our Tia. There are free classes on the RTS app too,

Ligon Duncan
right? Yeah. 45 watts. Yeah. So

Melissa Kruger
you can I mean, I’ve had friends who are listening to the whole course. Yes. Yeah. So rather than even maybe the lighter podcast?

Nancy Guthrie
Yeah.

Ligon Duncan
It’s, you know, I think one one challenge for those of us that are sort of focus, there’s a focus deficit there is, is reading a good book, it’s easy to get pulled away, the same thing, listening to a lecture listening to a 15 minute life. So it’s something that you have to develop habits in. And so maybe listening would be a gateway into reading for challenging things as well. But yeah, I do think we have to fight against that. I know I do. Because I have to live in the world of the immediate because people need answers really quickly. And I don’t have a lot of uninterrupted time. And that definitely has an impact on study. And everybody has busy lives. We’re all busy, there’s this stuff. There’s a lot of stuff going on out there. And so you cultivating discipline to find time to study and then reflect on it and think things out. And if you’re teaching white outlines and that nature that, that our culture hasn’t done a great job educationally of preparing people to do that we, we, everywhere I go in theological education, people tell me you know, our students are great. They just can’t read, write, think or speak. And that’s a, that’s a, that’s a culture wide thing that has happened. And so you may, you know, there may be work that you need to do there in the area of reading, learning how to read their books, how to redouble learning how to think about things. And all of that impacts your ability to do intake of good sound, theological truth from the Scripture.

Leigh Swanson
Can I can I share? Can I share a little thing about a sacred about the app if you go on the app, and you can listen, as Melissa said to the lectures for various courses? Well, there’s, you know, all those courses also have required required reading, but you wouldn’t know what the required reading is in the app. But if you go to the RTS website, or tf.edu, you could click on the syllabi for any class. And then there you will find what their required reading was for the course you listen to on the app. And so that’s a great way to get get exposed to really good academic writing from all different periods of the church’s life,

Melissa Kruger
please give us the secrets for how to get an RTS degree for free.

Nancy Guthrie
Okay, so we’re talking about women and theological education. And I think one thing all of us off sometimes hear from women is okay, I am interested in seminary. And I love it that so many women I know who are pursuing a seminary degree, it’s not necessarily because there’s a particular job they need a degree for to get, they just want to know the word and Scripture better. But at this, but also, if you do pursue a degree, it’s a big investment. And there are many women who they really need to be able to get a job after they have made that huge investment in seminary. And and it can be it’s different with different types of churches in terms of who they will hire for full time paid staff. So I think this is a challenge for women who want to grow theologically, is there going to be a job out there that’s going to make have made the investment of seminary worthy. So I just wonder how you deal with that as head of a seminary and your the impact you have on on pastors and churches in their hiring?

Ligon Duncan
Well, one is we want all of our students to be thinking that question, man, as well as the women need to be thinking, theological education is a very expensive thing, if all you want to be able to do is teach the Bible better in your local church, you know, if you’re a Sunday school teacher or a Bible teacher in the church, so I want to make sure everybody is asking what’s my vocational aspiration here, and how is seminary serving that and that’s particularly important for women until the last 10 years, there haven’t been that many jobs in complementarian, Evan Jellicle churches that were full time my wife served back starting back in the 1980s. In two large Presbyterian churches, there were not many full time positions for and she worked in Christian education. And so she had a theological degree from a seminary and worked in Christian education. And then she came to RTS and did a counseling degree. And that’s where I intercepted her and kept her from going to church, which is why I had to go to the 35 elders in her church and ask her and in marriage, their plan was for her to come back to the church. So she, when she was she is leads the women’s fellowship at RTS, Jackson. And we have at least three groups of women in that fellowship. women that are pursuing theological education, some of them are heading on to do PhD studies and pursue academics teach in colleges teach in high schools, other things like that. Some of them are studying in the counseling program. We’re probably a majority of of our students are women studying for the counseling program. And they’re looking not only to do professional counseling, but some of them counseling, the context of local churches and para ministries and things of that nature. And then those who are spouses of those that are in the, in those, those are three really distinct groups and we do spouse scholarships. So there are a lot of spouses in classes at RTS, probably 20, north of 20%, of RTS students are women. So we have a lot of women in class pursuing theological education, we love that. And, but for those that are coming to do a degree, we just want to make sure that they have there’s, there’s an end goal that’s achievable for the purposes of that, that degree and sometimes we can help in networking. You know, what this person is outstanding? Bob, you’re looking for such and such you need to you need and thankfully, RTS has a very high placement rate. It’s north of 95% placement rate within six months of graduation. And that’s for everybody, men and women. And, but it the admissions folks on the front end will do a good job of talking with you about that. And then the women that are working with teaching women to teach and on the various campuses with a woman fellowship. That’s one of the big conversations they have with the women who are students in RTS, because we want to serve them well there. We don’t we don’t want you to just spend a lot of time doing a degree and that’s not the best use of your time we if that’s what you’re going to do. We want to make sure you can put it to work in the right place for the Lord. Let me let me ask each of you real quick. You worked with men in various capacities, based on your experience. What do you wish that men understood about working with women? Start with units Oh?

Nancy Guthrie
Well, they’re gonna have better answers than I, you know, I work at home with and there’s one man in there. So, and I like him a lot. And so I probably probably it’s not as easy. I’ll just speak to being a woman in the church interacting with pastors Would that be alright? You know, I’ve had both really positive and really not terrible negative experiences like some people have had. But you know, I can remember a pastor who basically he never looked a woman in the eye. So like you pass him the hall and never been in the eye or, or even tried to have a conversation, it was just, and so maybe his desire was seeking to be appropriate. But what it felt like is like, I could have never gone to him about some significant issue because I didn’t sense I could have a meaningful conversation with him. Or I can think about a time you know, I was teaching, we were teaching through Romans, and I was I got assigned to teach Romans nine through 11. Thank you very much. And I have made I was just really struggling with how to handle that. And, and I wanted to teach it in accordance to the theology of that my church teaches right not just be kind of on my own with that. And I remember going to particular pastor before teaching and just like, Okay, I read this all Israel will be saved. No, I’m okay. And I’m talking to you about what I’m gonna do with it. He’s like, yep, sounds good. And I was just like, whoa, wait, I need more than that. And so what it felt very dismissive to me an unwillingness to engage with me in a way that I was thought I was really thoughtfully trying to teach well, right. But I’ve had the total, most of my experiences have been the total opposite. You know, I can think of a pastor who came to our church, I was just beginning to teach through seeing Jesus in the Old Testament, and he saw what I was doing and got excited about it. And so you know, just for pastors who are listening, I would just say, you just don’t know the power of your encouraging word. I mean, the fact that a pastor took notice, and he was excited about what I was doing, and then he opened his library to me and recommended resources. That just that was just an enormous encouragement to me. And I just, I think, pastors underestimate Yeah. Lee,

Ligon Duncan
what do you wish? Man understood? Oh, gosh,

Nancy Guthrie
she can go on for a while?

Leigh Swanson
Well, I mean, my I think my experience has been really unique and RTS, because in so many contexts at work, I’m often the only girl in the room. Which actually, I really like, because I think women are harder to work with. And men are. That I will tell you that, you know, one on one, I have so many great relationships with the men I work with. They really are like brothers to me. And we’ve really leaned into the metaphor that at the household of faith Scripture uses to describe how these relationships should be. And so we’ve talked about that a lot that you know, what our work relationships look like our brothers and sisters and fathers and mothers. And, and that has brought me so much joy, to have relationships with all these brothers. That also say I, you know, have worked for RTS now for over 10 years. I

Nancy Guthrie
think she needs a raise.

Leigh Swanson
Oh, I do. I do. And I think it was probably five years ago. Mike Allen, who was our Academic Dean invited me to come in and speak at a faculty meeting. And to talk about how to engage women in a classroom when there are only a handful of women in a classroom with so many men. And I walked into the faculty meeting and hear all these men I know that most of them have been professors. I was the only woman in the room and suddenly, I got so nervous, like and my voice started to shake a little and afterwards, Scott Swann who’s here. And as my boss, he was like us. I don’t think he’d ever seen me nervous before and a group of men and I mean, I usually I don’t mind owning a room when there’s a bunch of men. But I got nervous and I just I started realizing that you know, there is something about When you’re the one of something said, you know, it was like I had a, I had an understanding of maybe what it’s like to you to be a minority and walk into a room when you’re the only one and, and happen to then come across a study about how many women it takes to be in a room before women feel comfortable speaking up. And so I would say to men, just remember that sometimes women are conditioned from childhood, in many contexts, especially in the south, and especially in Christian contexts, that the most valuable thing about you is you need to be polite, and polite is oftentimes equated with keeping your mouth shut. And so I would just remind men that when women do speak up, it’s probably been really hard for them to get there. There’s, there’s not a lot. I mean, I am very opinionated. But sometimes it takes a lot of coaxing to get it out of me. Because my default is I’m supposed to be nice. And I’m supposed to be polite. So

Ligon Duncan
I recognize that. Melissa? Yeah, I

Melissa Kruger
think the biggest thing I would love for both men and women to recognize is that our differences are beneficial, and God ordained. So I just want us to be true. complementarian. Yeah. And I want, I want it to be that no, the room is better when women are there because I need their perspective. Just like as a woman, I want to say the room is better when my brothers are there because I need their perspective. And so it goes both ways. It’s been one of the reasons I love working for TGC to be quite honest, because I need my brothers. And they have made me feel like they need me to. And I can’t tell you just that, hey, I know, we don’t want to publish this without your eyes on it, Melissa, that, that that’s an amazing level, just have respect of I know you’re gonna because I know you are different as a woman, you’re going to read this differently. And because I know Yeah, I mean, Mike and I do this, like everything I write my husband racing out with him. I’m always like, just make sure I’m not a heretic, right? I don’t want to be, you know, arrested or anything for that. But like, and we’ve had how often say, Well, you read this to make sure my turns right. And, you know, we realize we both need each other. And that, that that’s what the church should look like that we both just need each other. Yeah, we can totally uphold like roles and different things like that. But just assume on your perspective, I want to hear from you. And I just think that’s just a beautiful picture of us working together as a body.

Ligon Duncan
And I want to think, thank each of you for the way that you serve the church, and for the way that you serve in the setting of TGC and RTS and so many other places. I’m thankful for the way that you have instilled the love for the Bible and biblical theology 1000s and 1000s of feet and leave for your investment in the seminary as a whole but also in teaching women to teach everything from children’s books to encouraging women Melissa, we’re just it’s a better place because of what the Lord is doing through you. So thank thank all Thank you Megan.