Essential Elements of Pastoral Ministry

The following is an uncorrected transcript generated by a transcription service. Before quoting in print, please check the corresponding audio for accuracy.

Sam Allberry
Welcome back to your not crazy, gospel sanity for young pastors. This is the start of season three, we’re glad to have you with us. We’re going to be doing things a little bit differently. We’re going to be talking about Second Timothy today and through the season. And we’re very excited to talk about a very little but one of our favorite books that crossway have published, so stick around to hear about that at the end.

Ray Ortlund
I said it was great to be back with you.

Sam Allberry
Right? It’s always good to see a friend.

Ray Ortlund
I have a question for you. You are from Britain, we love Britain. My favorite. Some of my favorite places on the face of the earth are they’re up in Scotland. Now that you’re living so much of the time in the USA, I would love to know what do you find most mystifying about the United States of America?

Sam Allberry
That’s such an unfair question, right? Because I’m gonna end up offending, the vast majority of you that might get my reason visa revoked immediately. People listen to this. There’s there’s various things that that intrigued me some things that baffle me that the can do optimism is to me intriguing, because that’s so different to what I’m used to in the UK, we’re pretty cynical. Back in the UK. mystifying i being honest, I am mystified by the need. A lot of Americans have to insist America is the greatest place in the world. I think it is a great country. Don’t get me wrong. But there’s that sort of need for it. We’re the ones who are the best at everything. That does mystify me.

Ray Ortlund
That’s an interesting point. It reminds me of revelation 21, when the kings of the earth bring the glory and honor of the nations into the holy city, and it says nothing impure will enter in so all this culture creating we’ve been doing throughout history will be purified, redeemed and made eternal. Yeah, that’s so yeah. And that includes the nations, not just this one nation. So I’m, I love my country. And I’m an American, in one sense, Sam, I will always and forever be an American. Yeah, but I’ll be redeemed then. And you will always in forever be British. And we’ll have you know, Nigerian friends who will always and forever be Nigerian. And and and Burmese and Chinese and Australian and so forth. Heaven will be so human, and we will all be equally glorious.

Sam Allberry
Yeah, it’ll be wonderful. What what do you love about America? You say you love your country?

Ray Ortlund
Yes, I do. I love the convictional and courageous stand. For individual freedom. We are. Historically we have not been an over regulated society. We’ve had space and room for people to be themselves and to chart their own path through life. I think that’s dignifying to human beings. I think it’s scriptural and I have a deep affection for that tradition in America. That’s cool. We have a lot wrong with us too, obviously. But I’m grateful for that. Now. Okay. Season three of you’re not crazy. Gospel Saturday, Frank pastures. We love you guys who are listening. We’re it’s a privilege to serve you. Season three is going to be different. We’re going to plow through Second Timothy. You know, someone said once, Sam, last words are lasting words. And we’re reading here the last words of the Apostle Paul with his priorities, as he’s handing the ministry of the gospel from generation one to generation two. What what are you hoping for Sam, as we think through Second Timothy, with our pastor friends,

Sam Allberry
yeah, well, part of the rationale for doing this for doing Second Timothy in particular was that it’s a letter about church culture. In many respects, it’s a letter helping a pastor and his church to be biblically healthy and faithful and to be flourishing. So this, this is directly into the very things we’ve been talking about through this podcast. And as we think about who Paul Watson who Timothy was, we realize if the sort of idea of this podcast was to offer encouragement to younger pastors, we weren’t the first people to have that idea. This is This is Paul doing that. So second, Timothy is one of Paul’s seasons of view not crazy because he’s trying to help Timothy, orient himself and have that that kind of gospel sanity that we’re we’re rooting for. So Let’s, let’s see how he does it.

Ray Ortlund
Yeah. Second Timothy is pastoral encouragement on steroids.

Sam Allberry
He has Austrial strength. Yes, nuclear powered, yes, gospel encouragement,

Ray Ortlund
time tested, Battle Ready. This is rugged and resilient, it will last. And it’s perennially relevant. And what it strikes me as I think about Second Timothy as a totality, what strikes me is Paul’s sense of urgency, both that the message of the gospel will be preserved, whole and undamaged. intergeneration to the message will remain clear and captivating, and that the community, the culture that that message creates, will continue to be beautiful and captivating gospel culture. The I don’t think you were I would say it’s easy to preach gospel doctrine. It isn’t easy, but it’s even. It’s even harder to nurture gospel culture. It’s a matter of intangibles. Yeah, vibe, feel relationships, assumptions. Just the, the tone in the room on a moment by moment basis, and we see both urgencies in the Apostle Paul here in Second Timothy.

Sam Allberry
Yeah, that the doctrine is meant to be creating a very particular kind of culture. Yeah. Which is what we’re longing for. And that’s that’s part of why we’re, we’re engaged in this podcast is to think that through it, hopefully, encourage ourselves, encourage others along the way. As we go through Second Timothy, we we have a third co host with us. In a way do you want to introduce him?

Ray Ortlund
Well, this is the commentary on Second Timothy by John Stott, in the Bible speaks today series published by University. This is a gem. I think you and I would both agree.

Sam Allberry
Scott is one of my favorite expositors and I think this is my favorite of his real published expositions.

Ray Ortlund
Now, why do you feel that way about the teaching and preaching of John Stott?

Sam Allberry
For those who might not know John Stott was a was a British church leader, second half of the 20th century, based at all souls Langham place in London. And really led led a resurgence of expository preaching in the UK. He was leading at a time when there were very few evangelicals. It was a very beleaguered kind of movement, and he just injected so much wonderful encouragement and wisdom. We, he died just over 10 years ago, I think we, we really miss him. But his, both his preaching and his writing, he is, I think, one of the clearest expositors that I can think of. And when I first became a Christian, I went off to university and where I was studying, there wasn’t really I wasn’t well resourced in terms of local fellowship, support, encouragement, and my my pastor back home had said to me, Listen to John Stott sermons and try and read some John Stott books as a way to feed yourself. So I got some cassettes, as they then were from, from all souls of some of Staats sermons, picked up one or two of these books had written. And what I learned, unwittingly along the way was how to handle scripture. Because he shows you just enough of his work in that you use you see a passage and he’s showing you how he’s understanding what the passage is saying. And then showing you what is in the text is expanding it. But he’s always been a model of, of kind of sane, careful, thoughtful, he’s, he’s learned but rights for people who wouldn’t know technical things. The right level of application he’s a very good model to follow as an exposure. When I

Ray Ortlund
look at a passage of Scripture, commonly I see a massive chaotic details. Yeah, which are interesting, but I don’t know how to put it together into into coherence and clarity and get to the point. Yeah, John Stott knows how to get to the point. Yeah, and state it clearly simply and that really helps me then in my preaching and teaching such

Sam Allberry
an orderly mind credible, which is great. It can sometimes be a mixed blessing I sometimes find a five listened to John Stott, preacher passage that I’m working on. I don’t know how to preach it other than than the way he did. You know, what are the three points would you use other Got one. So it seems so obvious. Actually, that’s so good. We’ll we’ll kind of use him along the way because we’ve both loved that, that book by him. So he will have a voice, too in our in our discussions. Ray, something else before we dive into the start of this letter. There’s been a longish gap between Season Two and season three of of you’re not crazy. I’ve had a few kind souls asking when’s the next season coming out? And that kind of thing? I presume is I’m sure we’ll have to we’ll have to talk about this. But there was something else related to you’re not crazy that we were doing over the summer. That is one of the reasons why we’re slightly later getting to this recording. Do you want to share what that is? Sure.

Ray Ortlund
Well, we’re we’ve been surprised and are certainly gratified by the the response that we have received from young pastors, especially also elders and church members. Because gospel doctrine, creating gospel culture is universally relevant. And I think right now, in our moment, Sam is is earnestly desired. In the last 20 years or so, through the gospel coalition and other wonderful ministries, we really have been recovering the doctrine of the gospel. And now there’s, I think, a broadly felt a sense of urgency and need to nurture the culture, the community, the human beauty, the relationships, that that doctrine is meant to create when it’s allowed its full authority. So this is resonating. Sam, you and I both deeply believe that is essential to pastoral ministry. And if we will make ourselves vulnerable like this and give ourselves away, perhaps it’s never before and have, by God’s grace, the courage to love people really love them in such a way we can can’t take it back. Yeah. The Lord will bless that.

Sam Allberry
And it’s a good question for us to ask that to the people. We are ministering to the people we are seeking to serve, whether we’re pastors or parents or small group leaders, whatever the context to the people we’re seeking to serve. Do they know how much we love them? Yes. Because Because apparently letting them know is part of the ministry. Wow.

Ray Ortlund
Great point. Paul is not embarrassed to use this very emotional language. He he puts his heart right out there. Yeah. I respect that.

Sam Allberry
It’s it’s fatherly, it’s not paternalistic.

Ray Ortlund
Yeah. And then when he says, Grace, mercy and peace from God, the Father and Christ Jesus, our Lord. He’s really describing the overall tone and tendency of true pastoral ministry. This is he declares upfront where his ministry is going to take Timothy, where it’s going to take everyone more deeply into the grace, mercy and peace that God gives through Christ. Sam, there is so much coming at us pastors today. pressures, agendas, priorities, you got to be this you’ve got to do that. But there’s so much I believe, that doesn’t belong in in pastoral ministry. What are the few essentials that must be present and powerful? Grace? Mercy,

Sam Allberry
peace. Yeah, there’s nothing Tolkien about that, that sentence. And it’s Paul’s saying, these three things characterize ultimate reality with Christ. And so all the pool is doing is seeking to make Grace, mercy and peace feel more real. Feel more tangible. Wow.

Ray Ortlund
Sam, I’m so struck by that what you just said, Isn’t it when I consider that my first thought is, what a privilege it is to be a pastor. Yeah. My life mission is to go move toward a church and through that church into the community. And I want God’s grace, mercy and peace in Christ to become more real, more believable to as many people as possible that is,

Sam Allberry
that is successful ministry. Yeah. We often confused by you know, am I winning the discussions in the elders meetings? Am I getting my way? Am I being acknowledged enough? Am I being seen enough? Are the numbers increasing? Is that giving going well, you can have all of those things and not be truly ministering Grace, mercy and peace in people’s lives.

Ray Ortlund
Alright, so let me upset everything. Too many churches are tragic failures, disguised as massive successes, and other churches appear unimpressive but are filled with the glory of Christ and Every single pastor has to make up his mind. Which am I going to reach for by faith and repentance?

Sam Allberry
Right, that is a I want us to leave that comment hanging on the air as the end of this episode and not least because, you know, we, we love the ministry of crossway. Yes, they’re helping us to do this podcast, the books we want to talk about are not books we feel we have to in order to kind of pay our dues to cross buy. Their books that have shaped us that that we, we commend. So given what you just said, one of the things crossway have been doing is this, this series of short classics. So taking short works from different parts of church history, making them more available. One of them is by Francis Schaeffer. And it’s it’s two sermons, I think of Shaffers, published in one very short volume, tell us the name of the book,

Ray Ortlund
right? It’s the Lord’s work in the Lord’s Way, and no little people. And you’re right, Sam, these are two sermons, and both, but especially the Lord’s work in the Lord’s Way. If the Bible is up here as my ultimate authority just beneath the Bible, is this sermon by Francis Schaeffer, the Lord’s work and the Lord’s Way?

Sam Allberry
You write the foreword for it, why did you do that?

Ray Ortlund
I felt so privileged to write the foreword for anything by Francis Schaeffer, because he was a prophetic voice. In my generation when I was in university. And his sermon, the Lord’s work in the Lord’s way, is never literally never far from my mind. He helped me understand that if our ministries really are going to be the Lord’s work, then that ministry must be pursued in the Lord’s Way. And that is to say, not by our own swagger, and pushing us and big deal illness, and our own brilliant marketing, and, and sparkling preaching and so forth. We always want to do the best we can, of course, but more deeply, more profoundly. We want to be men, who, who hoo, men have prayer, men who actually look to the Lord for our wherewithal, moment by moment, not that faith in Him is our official position. only that, but rather, that living in reality, personal reality with the risen Christ, moment by moment, is how we navigate reality. So we’re always operating at two levels at once at the observable level here, you and I are having a conversation. And we’re thinking of our friends who are listening and watching and so forth. But at a deeper level right now, each of us is also aware of looking to connecting with staying open to humbling ourselves before the risen Christ, who is right here, right now. Yeah, that’s my understanding of doing the Lord’s work in the Lord’s Way. Francis Schaeffer just helped me to see that in a way that I couldn’t unsee it and I never want to unsee it. So I felt like I made a personal breakthrough. When I read that, that sermon I highly commended to everyone.

Sam Allberry

And it really it is genuinely classic, and it genuinely is short to so it’s a book that will be easy to put in the hands of anyone in our in our churches. So we recommend that we are grateful to crossway for that. That’s the end of our episode. Right. Thank you for for this conversation. Thank you TGC for letting us play in your your podcast backyard. We’ll see you next time.