Why Pastors Need Accountability (with Paul Tripp)

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Ray Ortlund
If all we have is a true message, if all we have and our churches are just venues for preaching, even preaching orthodox truth, but there isn’t the beauty of human relationships, then I have to wonder, do we actually believe the truth.

Sam Allberry
Welcome back to you’re not crazy. I’m Sam Albury. I’m with Ray. Great to be with you, Sam. It’s taken us two attempts to be able to say our names out loud, so we’re doing well. We are still wanting to have occasional episodes of you’re not crazy when we feel like there’s a special occasion, and today is a special occasion, it sure is a very special occasion. We are with our dear friend Paul Tripp, Paul, thank you so much for joining us. Oh, it’s,

Paul Tripp
it’s my honor. I’m Thank you, Paul. I’m glad. Yeah,

Sam Allberry
so Ray, why don’t you kick us off? Okay, so

Ray Ortlund
we this conversation is meant to be uplifting, reassuring, you’re not crazy. Is a significant message. We need to keep saying that to each other. Anybody who has been captivated by the grace and love and mercy of Jesus and wants to follow Him. Now we started out speaking to younger pastors, but we discovered a lot of people are listening who aren’t in ministry and and here we are, all of us together, sort of stumbling forward. We’re stumbling but we’re stumbling forward toward Jesus with him, we need to keep saying to each other, you’re not crazy to keep going and follow Jesus now, I knowing something of your backstory, and, of course, my own, we don’t get to that place easily. And often it’s pain. There’s some sort of catastrophic disaster that helps us move from where we were to where we are together now, such that we need to keep saying, You’re not crazy. So Paul, help us understand, how did you what’s, what’s your ministry story? How did you move from where you were before to where you are now, such that Sam and Paul and Ray identify together very deeply. How did we get to this place of hope in the grace of Jesus? How did you get there?

Paul Tripp
So I was a fairly young pastor, and I was an angry man in ways that I I did not know I was in the process of destroying my ministry and my marriage and the Walla was very faithful in holding that anger in front of me and but I wouldn’t listen. I wouldn’t hear I would tell her what a wonderful husband she had. This is a bit mortifying that one time as I was on a roll defending my righteousness, I actually said to her, 95% of the women in our church would love to be married to a man like me. Oh, how’s that for humility? Wow. Louella quickly informed me she was in the 5% I go. And I was on a weekend with my brother Ted. It was a conference for pastors, and the emphasis was not the ministry of Pastor, but the life of the pastor. And as we’re going home, Ted said to me, you know, Paul, we probably ought to make this practical to our own lives. And we’re flying down the highway 65 miles an hour. I can’t jump out of the car, and he says, said to me, why don’t you start? I’ll just ask you questions. And as he asked me questions, starting with my relationship with Louella, the only way I can describe it, it was like God was ripping down curtains of blindness. Wow, and I could see myself as I hadn’t seen myself in years, and what I saw was was so far from who I thought I was, there was almost like I was looking at a different person, but it was me. Mm. Yeah, I was broken and

Ray Ortlund
But Ted wasn’t belittling you. He

Paul Tripp
wasn’t no, no, not, not at all. And in fact, I felt loved. I felt pastored, I felt cared for. I and and I would have, I just want to say this to those who are watching or listening, don’t ever resist the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit. Yeah, you aren’t being condemned. You are being loved. Those are that’s the arms of God drawing you near, and that’s what I felt. So I went home and got home fairly late, and I said to luala, I need to talk with you. She said, Okay. I said, for years, you have tried to talk to you about my anger. I would not hear, I would not listen. And I can honestly say for the first time in my life, I want to hear what you have to say to me. And as an act of Amazing Grace, she told me how much she loved me, and then talked for about two hours. And in the two hours, God just began this, this process of the reclamation and reformation in my heart. It didn’t, didn’t happen overnight, I would say, probably the next six months were deeply painful, because I now had open eyes and open heart. I saw that anger everywhere I looked. It was not just in my home, it was just all over the place. And the thing that marked me about that is not just the magnificence of God’s patient, forgiving, reconciling love that that you know, with all the elasticity of human language, you run out of descriptions of how magnificent God’s love is, but that I can’t do this thing called the Christian life by myself. Yeah, I just can that my walk with God is a community project, yes, and one of the things that hit me was that a very practical, new, practical understanding of the theology of spiritual blindness, if, if sin blinds and it does, then as long as sin still lives inside of me, there will be pockets of spiritual blindness. And so I need instruments of seeing in my life that help me see myself as I actually am, nobody between the already and not yet. Nobody can honestly say this sentence. No one knows me better than I know myself. That is an absolute delusion, because I look at myself like looking in carnival mirrors with distortion, because there’s still that distorted element of sin inside of me, because although I’ve been fully justified, sin hasn’t been Fully eradicated yet, and so I need help, and what’s God’s methodology of help? Well, it’s it’s just loving, patient, forgiving, understanding, sympathetic, gospel community, people who do function as God’s ambassadors of grace and in my life, and it’s that’s all of us. And so that was a that was a a course change for me. I i Now look back at my going to that conference was was part of what I was doing as a doctoral student. I would do that program just for that ride in the car. I’m and I’m persuaded that, more than God, using that program to enable me to minister well. His plan was to get a hold of me in ways that hadn’t happened before, and I I needed the conference, but I needed Ted in that car, because without Ted in that car, it wouldn’t have happened. Uh, and and so it it leads to, then, the the understanding that this, this theology that we embrace, that we sort of use one word for the gospel is never meant just to be a conceptual thing or an institutional thing or a ministry mission thing, but something that captures and reclaims us and and that’s, that’s a community project. And so as I, as I then began to read scripture, I realized the entirety of Word of God, the the motif, is relationship, yeah, it just is. It’s just it’s just everywhere. And that’s God’s constant call in my life. Up if I could do this in a bit of a trip. Ism, God makes His invisible grace visible by sending people of grace to give grace to people who need grace. Wow, that’s the plan, and I need those people in my life. I want to say one other thing, I mentor six young pastors, and they all look up to me. Every one of those guys mentor me, because I want this thing to be mutual. I know I haven’t arrived. I’m I know I’m not the ultimate example of everything that needs to be. And I find those relationships just just lovely, because we’re talking about things that are that are very, very important, but we’re doing it as people who are both needy, and we do this together, and it’s not unusual for me to meet with 101, young guys. And as I’m walking home through Philadelphia, I’m praying, but I’m praying prayers of confession, because God has revealed something my heart by this young man who probably would never presume to counsel me, but is doing it. I

Sam Allberry
think of that verse in Romans five, and Paul says, I look to see you that we may be mutually encouraged by one another’s faith, both yours and mine. He makes the same point in three ways, mutually encouraged by one another’s faith, yours and mine. And I love that there’s, there’s an apostle who’s not above being encouraged by much, younger believers. It’s beautiful.

Ray Ortlund
What you’re saying reminds me of something my dad, who is so wise, the man I most admire in all the world, something he used to say. He said every, every Christian man who wants to grow wants to go somewhere and live for Christ must be in a brotherhood where that guy says to the others, help me see myself. Those four words, amen, help me see myself. I believe, if we’re not in some kind of small group brotherhood, where we’re saying that to each other and listening, and we’re just playing games, and something else is going on. This is about our big dealness. This is about our success. This is about looking good, cultivating an image, projecting a ray ortlund. I really would like to be, but I’m not if, if I’m not going there with some brothers, then this is really false. And this is, it is very what it in the Pilgrims Progress Bunyan had, as I recall, correct me if I’m wrong, there was a little, sort of like an, almost like a manhole in the ground near the gates to the celestial city that went and it was, if you, if you stepped in there, it was a direct route to hell. And his comment was, there’s something like, was something like, there’s a, there’s a there’s an, an easy way to hell that is not far from the gates to the celestial city, and that way, I think, includes a kind of Christianity that is oh so right and oh so correct and oh so superior that never says to. Anybody help me see myself?

Paul Tripp
Yeah, I absolutely agree. I the way that I think about this, and this is a constant warning in my heart that the kingdom of self does a marvelous job of masquerading as the kingdom of God. Wow. Yeah, the kingdom of self is a costume kingdom, and it can look so utterly right and it’s completely wrong. And I think of when you were, when you were talking, I was thinking of the way Ephesians is laid out so, so Paul does this beautiful gospel rant for three chapters. It’s just, it’s just glorious. His very first application of what it means to live out the Gospel is two relationships, completely, completely humble. You know, all those things that he says, Why? Why? Because that’s the real deal. Wow, if you don’t live there, it’s not the real deal. And if you don’t live there, you will not continue to continue to grow in your in being captured by the truths of the gospel that’s Paul goes to the Essential right away. And I’m concerned that we think often of Christianity more institutionally or more doctrinally, and obviously the church’s institution, obviously, my whole life has has been given to unpack the truths of Scripture, but they’re meant to be transformational. Yes, and that always happens in community. I said to you last night, when I when I stand up to speak, it’s like 100 people stand up behind me, and I’ve got their handprints all over me that I couldn’t possibly be doing what I’m doing without them just this there is no individualistic, isolated Jesus and me, religion In Scripture. It just doesn’t exist.

Ray Ortlund
50 years ago, Janney and I were at the Lausanne Congress on world evangelization in Switzerland, and it was such a privilege to be there. I heard Francis Schaeffer speak and his it was captivating. What he said was, if we want to see something profound happen in our generation, and we do, then our churches must be marked by two contents and two realities. Content, one, strong doctrine. We’re not going to give away the store. Theologically, we love the Scripture. Second. Content, honest answers to honest questions. So we’re attentive to respectful of we’re listening to the questions that are tearing our generation apart, and we’re addressing those questions honest answers to honest questions. So a great message coming down from above and then interactively horizontally, respecting the anguish of our generation and speaking to it. So those two contents, two realities, number one, true spirituality, by which, of course, Schaefer did not mean upper echelon hyper spirit. He just meant actually trusting the Lord, looking to him for grace, moment by moment, such that our ministries are not just us being great at what we do, if that’s all it is. Who cares? Why should we care? But actually the Lord Himself entering in true spirituality, the second reality, the beauty of human relationships. Those were his very words. I’ve never forgotten that the beauty of human relationships, if all we have is a true message, if all we have and our churches are just venues for preaching, even preaching orthodox truth, but there isn’t the beauty of human relationships, then I have to wonder, do we actually believe the truth? Because, as you point out, I’d never thought of Ephesians that way. So Paul riffs on the gospel for three chapters, the first landing place. In chapter four, is the beauty of him in relationships, humility, solidarity, unity and and he,

Paul Tripp
he says it forcefully. Says, Make every effort. Yeah, be serious about this. Sacrifice things for this, give time and energy into this, make this a priority, man. I mean, it’s really strong language, yeah, and because Paul understands it’s essential to the work of Christ in me.

Ray Ortlund
Okay, so I’m old enough to have I have sinned more than either of you two guys. I have more regrets than either of you two have maybe more than the both of you combined. Oh, here’s something that eats at me. How do I rebuild relationships that by now have broken down? I mean, I’ve got several simple life goals. One, to live and die with integrity. Secondly, to stop losing friends. Thirdly, regain lost friends. Because if, if Paul himself says, Make every effort, build this up and and where it’s been lost, rebuild it. How do I mean everybody listening to us right now is probably agreeing, yeah, looking in the rear view mirror. Wow. I’d love to get some do overs. But how, how does, what has the Lord taught you, Paul, about how we can regain lost friends. Just this morning, over breakfast, Sam, you and I were talking about a dear friend of ours we want to regain. Yeah.

Paul Tripp
I mean, this is not a brilliant insight, but I first think caring about this that that these relationships have the kind of priority that the apostle Paul gives them. Do they for me or or is there just a a trail of brokenness behind me that I don’t actually care about? And then I think the words of Jesus, By this shall all men know you are my disciples. By what your theological correctness, your biblical literacy, this is Jesus. This is his last moments with His disciples. What do you say when you’re going to leave people, you’re going to say all the important things to them. And what does he pray for in his great prayer? I mean, it’s shocking that these people would be one as we are one. Now think who’s in the room, Matthew the tax collector and Simon the Zealot. Those two guys naturally hated one another, and he’s looking at those men broken as they are, and say, unless you love one another and you have unity, a commitment to unity, like we have in the Trinity. This ain’t the real deal. Again, that’s that’s Jesus. So if I’m there, then those that brokenness griefs me, we I can say, as a leader of a ministry team. I have 18 people on my team. I spend energy in making sure that that is a community of love and grace, that these these people aren’t viewed by Paul Tripp as objects of my success, because that’s reprehensible, it’s unbiblical, it’s dehumanizing. And so I think it begins with with with asking myself the question is, is this a value to me in the way that scripture presents it to be. And then the next question is, okay, who is behind me that I’ve been willing to have that brokenness with? Can I tell you a quick story? Sure, when I was in Scranton, we decided we had found a Christian school, and Scranton was a place where the American Dream died in 1950 it was very depressed, and we knew that most people wouldn’t be able to afford the normal price that you would pay for Christian education. So we. We designed a system where families would do X amount of hours of work a week, and that would lessen tuition, everything that other than teachers in the classroom, was covered by parents. It was beautiful, beautiful community. Well, there’s some men in the church, family or businessmen, and they thought they knew better, and they basically manufactured a coup and removed me and decided they would run the schools of business. It lasts about three years, and closed. Very hurtful time in my life, very hard for Louella. We had just given our lives to that school and had become a wonderful thing for the community. And 10 years later, I’m coming out of Westminster classroom building having lecture for three hours, this man standing at the door waiting for me, one of those guys, wow. And he said, I’ve been searching for you for 10 years, and I found out you were here, and I checked your schedule. And he said, what I did was wrong, and I need your forgiveness. And I thought, if I had been in his place, would I have searched for him? I probably wouldn’t have you know that was a three hour drive from his home to get to me to say, God doesn’t want me to live this way. And it was very convicting for me, because, like, I just said, I thought I probably would have said, well, that was behind me. It’s a shame if I had to do over again, I’d do something different. But move on. What that what that is, Ray is the progressive participation in the hardening of your own heart. That’s what it is. So I get to the point where it doesn’t bother me anymore. You know that passage in in Hebrews three was says, See to it that no one, none of you, has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God, sinful, unbelieving, hardening heart. Well, he’s he’s given us a process that ends with with the hardened of my heart. And so if this, if this is an essential that’s presented me in Scripture, a way of living that’s essential to the work of God in me and in others, and I’m just willing to not do what God says. I’m I’m growingly My heart is becoming growingly pardoned, a heart until I just don’t care anymore.

Ray Ortlund
And how is that biblical orthodoxy?

Paul Tripp
I think the way Paul ends in in Ephesians, three is the same note, because when he talks about the love of God, the height breathe death, says that it’s together with all the saints that we understand the love of God. He’s even saying, Guys, don’t you get it. You can’t do this alone. And then he says, So, take seriously. These relationships. Live this way with one another, because it’s even essential to your orthodoxy. It’s not orthodoxy and relationships as application, it’s Orthodoxy is impossible without these kind of relationships. See, I think the first place where we’ve fallen off the cliff is it’s orthodoxy. And one of the applications of Orthodoxy is relationships an afterthought That’s not biblical. Yeah, Paul is saying, no, no, no, you’re never going to get to gospel, gospel orthodoxy, unless you do what I’m going to talk about next

Sam Allberry
I’m reluctant to pause this conversation, but I think we’ve run out of time for this episode, so we will pick things up in the next one. Thank you so much all for being with us. Thank you, Ray, thank you for those of you who are listening, and we’ll see you next time.