Dry Seasons, Imposter Syndrome, and Reawakening: Season 4 Q&A with Sam and Ray

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Sam Allberry
Almost always my feedback to myself is there was too much exegesis and not enough Jesus.

Ray Ortlund
If our preaching amounts basically to challenge self improvement, nothing will change.

Sam Allberry
Yeah, I think I started to see church as being like a spiritual gymnasium, and here I am, the instructor. Some I need to stretch people. I need to push people. I think that was the wrong framework for the whole thing.

Ray Ortlund
How can I do this? Yeah, who is adequate for this? I feel small. I feel defeated, even before I start and so forth. Well, if we all feel that way, we can throw our heads back and laugh the laugh of faith and keep going.

Sam Allberry
Welcome back to You’re Not Crazy. I’m Sam Allberry, joined as ever by Ray.

Ray Ortlund
Good to be with you, Sam.

Sam Allberry
And Ray, this is the final episode of this season. We’ve, we’ve formed a mini tradition of making the final episode of these seasons a Q and A episode. So we’ve put the call out on social media, and we’re grateful to those of you who’ve written in and emailed online with with questions, comments, feedback, rain, I also want to thank you as we’ve been out and about ourselves and had opportunities to speak in different places, it’s just been lovely to hear from people who’ve listened to the podcast and come up and said, Hi, yeah. So thank you for those who’ve just let us know that you’ve been been listening. We, we are so privileged to have this time with you. Yes, and we, we so revere and admire the work of pastors especially. But we’re so grateful to those of you who’ve come up and introduced yourselves to us. We’ve enjoyed meeting you, hearing what you’ve made of the podcast and ways in which the Lord might even have used it. So hope to meet some more of you in the coming months.

Ray Ortlund
And Sam, I’m sure you’d agree with me that we’re grateful to the men who are with us right now, who have worked behind the scenes bringing their expertise to make this podcast work really, really well. For example, Andrea lapara and Trent and Wheeler are here who assembled the technology so expertly to make this presentable and to make it serve all those who are listening. We’re grateful for these guys.

Sam Allberry
Yeah, I’m looking at the number of wires just over by where Andrew is sitting, and I’m thinking he’s probably conducting a NASA mission at the same time. But judging by the technology, but there’s, there’s so much of this stuff we would not have the first idea about where we all we do is turn up and talk to each other that everything else is done by by these friends. We’re also joined by Jared Kennedy, who’s part of the editorial team at the gospel coalition. And Jared has just been so helpful to giving us pointers, questions, ways of making our conversations more useful to those who are listening. So a big thanks to these men, and I do want to mention in particular, Andrew has been with us throughout the whole podcast. So four seasons. This is our 40th episode with Andrew looking after us and brother, we are so grateful. We’ve got to know you well over this time, we’ve recorded in each of our homes, so we’ve been in each other’s homes. Now we’re recording this in your home. We’re grateful for your hospitality, and we’ve we’ve left not just with someone who has been an amazing colleague, but who has become a very cherished brother. We we say Praise God for you and your family and your ministry here.

Ray Ortlund
Now, here’s that raises a good point. Sam, all the friends we’ve worked with along the way, I’ve never heard a syllable of complaint at any moment along the way for four seasons of the podcast, and

Sam Allberry
we’ve tried their patience, but we have, indeed, we’re

Ray Ortlund
good at it. Yeah,

Sam Allberry
yeah. What you’re hearing is a is a is a beautifully edited version of the rambling, incoherent conversation that originally took place. So, you know, there’s times when we’ve had to start, you know that we started one episode about five times because nine of us could speak coherently. You

Ray Ortlund
know what’s happening in this room right now, by God’s grace, for His glory, is an ongoing, unfolding miracle of gospel power through fallible human beings like us. And really the Lord is present. He’s wrapping us up in his arms, enabling us to offer something to friends who are listening that will honor Him and benefit them. Yeah, what a privilege. Yeah,

Sam Allberry
it’s astonishing. Um, thank you to TGC, they’ve they’ve hosted this podcast on their. Their platforms, they’ve put their resources behind it. Ray and I, we have these conversations, whether there’s a microphone in the room or not. We just love hanging out and talking. We would not have the first clue how to get a conversation put online. Oh my goodness. So we’re grateful for TGC giving us this opportunity to be a part of their ministry. We love the gospel Coalition and the way, the many ways that they are, are serving the church. They have a whole suite of podcasts. Do check out the other ones they’ve got. I listen to, I listen to several of them. So thanks to them as well. And crossway will have more to say about in due course. But they’ve, they’ve been with us the whole way as well, and we’re so grateful to them.

Ray Ortlund
Now. Sam, people have sent in questions, very pointed, urgently significant questions, let’s just jump in. Okay,

Sam Allberry
yeah. Jomana, kick off, sure. So someone has written in and has said, Do you have any tips on building gospel culture in a church where decades of evangelicalism has become entwined with traditions that do not always uphold gospel doctrine, as opposed to a first generation church plant, where you can work from scratch. We’ve often talked about our life together at Emmanuel. Emmanuel was a church plant, and so in one sense, you had a blank sheet of paper. You could build a culture from scratch. Many of our friends listening are in churches that has an established culture, which may not be where they want it to be, and so they’re not just trying to build a gospel culture. They’re trying to change from something that’s existing into something else, yes, and that they’re inheriting traditions. Again, it might be that they the churches are not always clear on gospel doctrine, even so. How do we help those who are in in those kinds of churches? And I love that there are gospel hearted pastors who are willing to serve in churches that are not yet gospel hearted churches. I mean that that is Navy SEAL level, yes, dedication to the gospel. Yes,

Ray Ortlund
what a church planter lacks in security and perhaps financial predictability he makes up for with authority and freedom to act. Yeah, but going into an established church is a more difficult ministry. I just have two thoughts to put out on the table, and I would love to hear what you think Sam. But one is, obviously God is patient. You can be too. Obviously God is not in a hurry. You don’t have to be either. Play the long game. Take your time. Take it one step at a time, and realize up front, when you leave that church, it will still be imperfect, and your work will be incomplete, and that’s okay. You just want to help the team move the ball down the field as much as possible during your time there. That’s one thing, be patient. God is patient. Secondly, I would say, preach through Romans. Seriously, Romans seems to be where God triggers awakening, and historically, it’s been significant in that way, take a few years and just patiently, sweetly, lovingly, pastorally preach through the book of Romans and see what God will do the I would be shocked for a pastor to preach faithfully and in the power of the Holy Spirit through the book of Romans and nothing changes. He comes to the end of chapter 16, and the needle has not moved. That’s inconceivable. Yeah. So those are two thoughts,

Sam Allberry
yeah, I would very much echo that I’ve I’ve had friends who’ve gone into either non evangelical churches or evangelical churches that are just not clear on the gospel, and that they’ve had a ministry of trying to bring gentle reform to the church, friends who’ve done that, And I, I can’t speak more highly of them have generally said it takes about 10 years to see actual change happening in that kind of context, churches are like those big ships that take a long time to turn around. So I love what you said there, Ray because, because it is the nature of the gospel to bear fruit. Time can be on your side. It’s just hanging in there. Let keep sowing the seed of God’s Word, the parable of the of the growing seed. I love coming back to you because he sows the seed, then he goes to bed and sleeps. And while he sleeps, that the seed is doing its thing, and we trust the. Word by, by making sure we preach it. We also trust the Word by, by thinking, Okay, this is God’s work in his time. I can’t hurry it. And the things I would do to try to hurry it may actually undermine it. Time also gives you an opportunity to to out love people that there may be people who are very prickly at what you’re teaching. They don’t like some of the sharper edges that come with the gospel, but time gives you a chance, hopefully by God’s help, to show them you’re genuinely for them. You’re not a sort of Hot Shot preacher who loves the sound of his own voice and antagonizing people, but actually, they’ll hopefully be able to learn something of the pastoral heart that lies behind the doctrine that you’re teaching. So you’re giving it a chance to prove itself in your own character and life.

Ray Ortlund
Sam, you’re a good pastor that you would even think of that, that says a lot of good about you. Wow. That may

Sam Allberry
be the most ridiculous thing you said this season, but there we go. But and pray You know God is able what can look like a valley of dry bones to us, the Gospel can animate spiritual corpses and bring beautiful life.

Ray Ortlund
The doctrine of the grace of God works with power, yeah, if our preaching amounts basically to challenge self improvement, upgrading our already pretty good morality, nothing will change, yeah, but when we preach the grace of God through Christ, and especially the doctrine of justification by Faith alone, that that has a way of breaking our old paradigm and astonishing us. Surprise is one of the great strategies of the gospel. The doctrine of God’s grace surprises us. It is counterintuitive. It deconstructs the beliefs we’ve that have just sort of rubbed off on us along the way, somehow, even in church, yeah, and replaces that with surprise and gratitude and wonder and openness, great things happen.

Sam Allberry
Right? That actually leads to the next question I was going to bring up. Someone has asked about, how does an awareness of this whole idea of gospel culture, how does that inform the way we read and preach scripture. He’s talking about his own evangelical subculture that he’s been part of in his own background, and just thinking, how do you how does this inform the way we we read the Bible and preach scripture? I think both of us would say our preaching has changed, and necessarily has changed. How has yours changed? Well,

Ray Ortlund
I was going to ask you, Sam, because this comes, apparently, from someone in Britain, and you might understand the backstory here more clearly. How has your preaching changed? What kind of sermons Did you preach initially after your ordination? Yeah, so

Sam Allberry
I, I do occasionally look back over past sermons, if I’ve if I’ve got a if I’m preaching a passage that I know I’ve preached before, I’ll pull out the old sermon. Occasionally, there’s, there’s something I noticed in the passage and have since forgotten. Sometimes I think it might be a little shortcut to writing the sermon to use what I’ve done before. Most often I look at the old sermon and think, and I kind of wince a bit. I don’t see anything that is is heretical or unbiblical, but I see a lack of gospel proportion.

Ray Ortlund
What do you mean by that?

Sam Allberry
What I mean by that is almost always my feedback to myself is there was too much exegesis and not enough Jesus, so too much explaining. I’m explaining the text, which is a necessary part of preaching, sure, but it’s not the whole show, and there’s explanation and application, whereas now I’m thinking, How is, how has God designed this text to wow me with Jesus? Yes. How can this passage with its particularities, its tone, its mood, its content and where it where it goes? How is God designed for that to deepen our our love for Jesus? And each passage has its own flavor, its own burden, but somehow we should be coming out with a greater appreciation for Jesus, whereas I think sometimes I was just going verse two means this, verse four means this, verse five means this. And so therefore we need to be more godly in this area of life. And be better at that, and just saying, Actually, I somehow missed out a lot of Jesus from that. Why my

Ray Ortlund
own answer would be remarkably similar. I read my old sermons, and it’s sort of painful. I was doing what I knew to do at the time. I was being faithful to my understandings in that moment, but I’m so struck as I look at my sermons from the 80s and 90s and so forth, I honestly believed my job was to be sort of a cheerleader for people’s personal upbraiding of their life. Theologically and morally, and my job was to help them become sufficiently informed and motivated to sin less and obey Christ more.

Sam Allberry
Yeah, I saw it as I one of the churches I was working at. One of our church members was a gym instructor, a personal trainer, and gave me, very kindly, gave me a lot of personal training lessons. And I think I started to see church as being like a spiritual gymnasium. And here I am the instructor. So I need to stretch people. I need to push people. And there’s, there’s obviously elements of that in gospel ministry, but I think that was the wrong framework for the whole thing. Yes, I’m also strived from this, this question, this this idea of gospel culture is not a an idea we have come up with and are then trying to push onto the Bible. What we’re seeing is that the way in which the gospel creates a relational ecosystem that is meant to be beautifying of human relationships, and how that’s informed. The way I look at the Bible now is I’m now looking for the Bible’s own ways. It’s showing me the kind of fruit The Gospel is meant to bear in our lives together. So I’m more attentive to something that’s always been there. I may not have noticed it as much in the past, but now it’s much harder to miss because I’m aware of it. Yeah,

Ray Ortlund
I’ve also come to realize through the years how we sin and how we suffer and when I walk into church on Sunday morning as a sinner and a sufferer, and I know everyone else walking into church that morning is a sinner and a sufferer, it changes how I even perceive preaching. What is it there for? It is to give sinners and sufferers hope in Christ through the promises of the gospel. So I it’s sort of freeing, really. I don’t I don’t have to manage or motivate their sanctification. Yeah, I can comfort them and give them confidence and assurance that in their sins and their sufferings there is a Savior who is sufficient for them. Yeah,

Sam Allberry
it’s a liberating, isn’t it? I’m not the pastor Jesus is, yes, the most effective I can be as a as a human church pastor is bringing people under the voice of the Good Shepherd, yes, letting them know how good a shepherd Jesus is, how sympathetic a savior he is. That’s, I mean, that that’s, that’s actually relief, because I’m handing people into his care, and

Ray Ortlund
it has authority. Yeah, I don’t have the right not to preach that way. Yeah,

Sam Allberry
right. A couple of questions have come in about, how do you? One question was, how do you, how do you run a good business meeting? How does, how does, what we’ve been thinking about with gospel culture. How does that apply to aspects of life, like elders, meetings, business meetings, staff meetings? Does it change those things? How do we think about those things in the light of all of this?

Ray Ortlund
Actually, those occasions in the ongoing flow of a church increase in significance and as opportunities for people, not only to hear the gospel through preaching, but to experience the gospel through the life of the body. Take an elder’s meeting, for example, if the basic paradigm of Christianity is Jesus first, then community, then mission, then at Emmanuel, what we did was we started with Jesus. We opened up our Bibles. We looked for a few minutes at a passage of Scripture, read it out loud, shared takeaways and prayed. Then secondly, community, before we began the agenda and the tasks of the meeting, we. Went right around the table asking the question, how are you really, how are you doing? How’s the family? And guys would open up, and it would become sometime the honest answer was, everything’s fine, really, honestly, okay, great, but it’s not okay for somebody else. And so we would linger there and spend time making sure everyone there felt loved. We pastors want people to feel loved, not just used in the church machinery. Then we would thirdly mission. We’d get around to the work, dive in, get at it, but not first. And we would not treat community as an afterthought if we have time, yeah, but it would come before the work. Yeah, I

Sam Allberry
love that we actually had an elders meeting last night and did just that. So that paradigm has remained, wow, but I think it’s so important in those contexts, because if we’re not embodying and cultivating that gospel culture in those settings, we shouldn’t be expecting it of the congregation. So I kind of feel like those those gatherings, whether it’s a staff meeting, an elders meeting, that should be the kind of ground zero for gospel culture, because we want it to flow out from there to to the other areas of church life, to small groups, Sunday congregations, other types of gatherings that might be going on. And, you know that there’s the old saying, you never want to see how they how they make the sausage meat. I I think it’s actually in those behind the scenes moments that we we see who we really are as, yes, as a church. And so if gospel culture is just something we talk about performatively on a Sunday, but it’s not actually informing the nitty gritty of of those, those kind of behind the scenes meetings. Then we don’t really believe it, because the whole point of this is our life depends on this. Yes, we can’t live without this. We we need this honesty and this realism, and so if, when, if we’re not depending on it as a group of elders or as a staff team, we won’t expect it to have traction with anybody else. Well,

Ray Ortlund
I learned new depths of gospel culture from the elders. For example, when we were building out my off ramp from the lead pastor position and TJ’s on ramp. The elders worked faithfully, prayerfully, diligently about that for several years, and it seemed obvious that along the way we would have to have congregational meetings to recruit prayer and Q and A and involvement and so forth. And initially I was so resistant, because the very language congregational meeting conjures up in my mind scenarios I want nothing to do with. So one of the guys said, one of the elders said, Well, let’s not call it a congregational meeting. Let’s not treat it as a congregational meeting. Let’s call it a family gathering, and let’s treat it as such. And I thought brilliant, and so we framed it that way, it’s a family gathering, and built it out that way, and it didn’t actually happen like a congregational meeting, which is, you know, sometimes made complicated with rancor and adversariality and so forth. It was actually fun. So I learned that from the elders. They were wise. They put that on the table, and it totally worked. So we don’t have congregational meetings at Emmanuel. We have family gatherings. And actually, that began a tradition that still holds and the sort of shared expectations, the scenario we all imagine in our mind for that kind of moment, benefits the future of the church. Yeah.

Sam Allberry
Yeah. Ray, two final questions, which I’m going to pair together. One, one dear friend has written in to say, you know, we, we’ve, we’ve often said in the podcast to younger pastors, please, please keep going. Keep at it. And this particular brother is is looking at just a very daunting ministry prospects. And he’s asking, Is it, is it ever wrong? Is it ever right to quit, but is it ever right to resign? And someone else has asked the question, how do we deal with imposter syndrome as pastors, when we feel like there’s has God got the right person? Should I even be doing this? I. So how do we deal with with the feelings of I’m way out of my depth? At what point do we say to someone, actually, it might be wise for you to to resign that particular ministry, and how do we encourage someone who’s just feeling as though this doesn’t feel like I’m the right guy for this?

Ray Ortlund
Do we ever feel like we’re the right guy? Well,

Sam Allberry
that’s the thing. As I read that question, I don’t know who that person is, who sent in the question about imposter syndrome, but I feel myself trusting them, yes, because they don’t trust themselves, and that the kind of Pastor I’m less likely to trust is the one who’s assuming, well, of course, I’m the pastor. I’m obviously the person to fix this church and to lead everyone and know exactly what needs to happen. That’s good. So the that self wariness I find profoundly, profoundly healthy.

Ray Ortlund
Now, Sam, do you believe that it it can be valid to for a pastor to realize I’ve done what I can do. I don’t want to waste their time. I’ve made the contribution I think I can make. I can’t see myself continuing here. I’m going to offer my resignation. Do you believe that that can be a valid option?

Sam Allberry
Yeah. I mean, we have freedom. It’s a wisdom issue, isn’t it? Roy, you’ve worked for how many different churches, four or five over the years? Yeah, so. And I’m sure each of those was a very different experience, but at each of those times, there came a point where you felt it was right to move on and do something different. Yes, that may have been because you thought I’ve done as much as I can do in this particular church. They need someone for their next season with a slightly different set of gifts and skills and strengths. Maybe it was because you sort of thought these people don’t want to go as as far as I want to take them. Or maybe you just thought the Lord is opening another door somewhere else. But there were obviously times when you resigned from a particular ministry post. So from that, you know, and I’ve done the same, one of one of the jobs I resigned from was because it was a in the Anglican world, it was accuracy, where it’s a fixed amount of time anyway. And the other one was, was my previous church in the UK, where I felt, again, the Lord was was moving me to do, to go somewhere else and do something a bit different. So there can be lots of reasons behind why you might move on from a given post that aren’t all just because it’s too difficult. But I think for some people, it’s too difficult. Might be sometimes the Lord’s word to us is persevere. Sometimes the Lord’s word is there may be some fresher pastures elsewhere. I remember one dear friend I won’t name, but we both know well was going through just was in a horrific ministry context a few years ago, and he texted me one day saying, Please pray for me. Things are just unbearable. And I suddenly thought to say to her, I’d always prayed for him, you know, please keep going. But I said to him, am I praying for perseverance, or am I praying for a lifeboat for you? And for the first time, he said, I think I’m praying for a lifeboat. It had become more than he could physically bear, and it was affecting his spiritual health, his family’s spiritual health. And that instance, I think he was right to to resign that particular ministry, but we have to trust the Lord’s wisdom. Yes,

Ray Ortlund
sometimes these are very difficult decisions to make, yeah, but we do put ourselves in the Lord’s hands and trust Him, even if we make even if we make a mistake, he will somehow redeem that because it’s what he does.

Sam Allberry
He’d already factored that in before we’d ever set foot inside a little bit for the first time, I

Ray Ortlund
remember one church I served. I was there for some years, and it the church turned a corner during my time there, we all turned a corner. I went into my own gospel Renaissance during that time, and most of the church did as well. Some in the church couldn’t turn that corner with the rest of us, and that was difficult. And I became, personally the issue in that, in that maelstrom of of of difficulty, and I came to realize, became convinced, and it funneled down to one meeting where the issues became clearer than I had seen before. It wasn’t just personal anguish, it was clarity I saw I am an impediment. Now, if I will remove myself, this church has turned a corner. They’re not going back. They’re. We’re aligned more closely, not perfectly. None of us is, but we’re more more closely aligned with Jesus and His gospel. They’re not going back, but if I remove myself, it might actually unleash them into the future and accelerate their progress. Yeah, because I’m not the issue anymore. Yeah. So I did, and I think it was the right thing to do, and and they’ve done really well. They have indeed carried on, and they’re doing wonderfully.

Sam Allberry
That’s wonderful. I want to say to the pastor who’s experiencing imposter syndrome, I don’t know if it’s possible to be a healthy pastor and not have some some experience of that, because we’re ministry by definition, is beyond us. We can’t change people’s lives. Only the Lord can. Christ is the chief Shepherd. We’re the very, very junior under shepherds. Yes. And so we’re doing something that is, we’re trying to, we’re trying to. It’s a supernatural work that can only be by God’s grace, through the power of his his Word, through the Holy Spirit. Yes. So I find something reassuring about a pastor who’s who’s just aware this is, this is way beyond me, this, this, this church is the church of God purchased by his own blood. Amen, we shouldn’t presume to to get our, you know, to roll up our sleeves and dive in. And we should feel wary this thing is too precious. The stakes are too high. So I just want to say to the person who’s asked that question, I I think it’s a healthy thing to feel there will be a satanic accusation that comes alongside that which we want to refute, because none of us can ever be worthy and qualified in that sense, to be a pastor. But if you’re feeling a bit a bit overwhelmed and like this is too much for someone like me, that’s a good space to be in, because we we can only do this healthily by being very dependent on the Lord. Yes,

Ray Ortlund
it might be wise not to talk about it frequently from the pulpit, no, because then one makes oneself the issue more than yes appropriate, but walking into the pulpit and in all ministry situations with the question, What on earth am I doing here that actually is advantageous to the people? Because many of them are asking that very question as they navigate their lives, moment by moment. How can I do this? Who is adequate for this? I feel small. I feel defeated even before I start and so forth. Well, if we all feel that way, we can throw our heads back and laugh the laugh of faith and keep going.

Sam Allberry
Yeah, Ray, that’s a lovely note to kind of finish this episode on and to finish this season on. And this is, this is the end of our final season. If you’re not crazy, it won’t be the last you hear from us. We’ve got a couple of other things in the pipeline that we hope to have in due course, but we want to end where we where we began four years ago, and to say if, if you are a pastor who is thinking, surely the church can be a place of healing in this broken world, surely the gospel can make church a sweet experience, surely, even even those things can change. You’re not crazy. Yes,

Ray Ortlund
you’re not crazy to follow Christ with eyes wide open to the challenges you’re going to face. You’re not crazy to stake all your happiness on the eternal promises of Christ. You’re not crazy to be buffeted by problematic people and not hit back. You’re not crazy to take the Bible straight as good news for bad people through the finished work of Christ on the cross and preach it as good news, gospel from Genesis to Revelation and Sam, you know, you and I, we are here. We’re in frequent contact. We’re an ongoing brotherhood. And this is so precious and meaningful to you and to me and the pastor who’s out there listening to us, we would want to say as well, you’re not crazy to lock arms with another conscientious Christian brother, whether an ordained minister or a layman, and kind of slit your wrists and become blood brothers and go through life ruggedly prayerfully together with honesty and vulnerability and openness and solidarity together that. A great way to live. You’re not crazy to live that way. Let’s go get it. Yeah.

Sam Allberry
Well, God bless you, Ray. Thank you for for letting me join you for these conversations. Thank you listeners, for being with us through these through these years, through these episodes. We hope it’s an encouragement to you. We long for you to to feel the Lord’s encouragement to your ministry through us, and it’s our privilege to wish you his blessing.

Ray Ortlund
Yes, thank you, Sam. God bless everybody.