Front Row Seat: Cultivating Deep Relationships

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Kristen Wetherell
Oh Kari. Many pastors wives, know the scenarios, someone you have invested in, spend time with and grown to love leaves the church. Someone you thought you could trust suddenly speaks harshly about you behind your back. And now that trust is broken. Someone you’re called to honor is critical of your husband. That’s such a hard one and you feel helpless to do anything about it, and you feel angry. Someone wants to spend time with you, which is wonderful, but you aren’t sure whether to invest in this relationship. When you all know that you have only limited time and there are so many people before you and so many needs before you. So we know all of these scenarios they resonate with many of us. But one thing is true of all of us. And it’s that we all desire true friendship.

Kari Olson
That’s so true. And because we desire true friendship, we find ourselves sometimes as pastors wives asking that question, Who can I trust? Who can I trust here? Because we want so badly to have those deep connections and friendship? Well, we are talking about community and building the bond of friendship. today. Our guest is Christine Hoover. We’re so happy to have her here. She’s married to Kyle Hoover, and they serve the Austin Stone Community Church in Texas. She is also an author, and she’s written such books as how to thrive as a pastor’s wife, and messy beautiful friendship. Perfect for today’s conversation. So Christine, thank you for being here on front row seat conversations of encouragement for pastors, wives, by pastors wives.

Christine Hoover
Thank you so much for having me. You guys. I’m glad to be here.

Kari Olson
Good. Well, before we jump into our topic, could you tell us a little about your family and what ministry looks like for you guys these days? Sure.

Christine Hoover
Well, that’s an interesting question, because we just moved a few weeks ago, we were serving in Charlottesville, Virginia, my husband and I planted a church there in 2008. So we were there for 14 years. And God recently called us to move but my husband took a new position as an executive pastor at the Austin Stone in Austin. And we are Texans originally. So it’s a little bit like coming back home. And so we’re really excited about this opportunity. I have, we have three boys, they are 1916, and 14. So really fun ages, and I do love having boys very much. So that’s us. And just as for me, personally, I get to write you mentioned my books. I also have a podcast called ministry wives podcast, which I love to do. I mean, I’m so excited to be a guest on talking about this, because I love talking about all things ministry, and encouraging pastors wives.

Kristen Wetherell
Yeah, your your resources have been so helpful to me over the years. I’ve shared that with you, Christine. But seriously, Carrie, I mean, her book, from good to Grace years back, impacted my grasp of the gospel and my love for Christ so much. And then I just had to read every single thing that you wrote are just so great and pristine. And yes, check out the ministry wives podcast, it’s a great one super encouraging and helpful as well. Well, on the topic of friendship, that’s what we’re here to talk about today. It is so important. It’s it’s a gift that God has given to us. Not only pastors wives, but every single believer, every single human being, and you’ve written a lot about friendship. How would you define it? What is your definition of friendship?

Christine Hoover
I think that’s a really good important question to think about. Because we all have ideas of what it is we don’t always give words to it or acknowledge that we do have ideas. So it’s important to think about it and to think what what did God intend when he created friendship, because he did create us to be in community and to be in close community, with people. So this idea of friendship comes from Him. And it really reflects the Trinity right that there that God, the Father, Jesus, the Son and the Holy Spirit are in community with one another. So he initiated himself with Adam and Eve. And he took friendship even a step further with than that when he sent Jesus to die on the cross for us to reconcile us to him, so that we could have friendship with God and of course, so much more than that. But that is an aspect Get to it. And so I think what happens is when we don’t think about our definition of friendship, we often, if if we actually sit down and think about it, we realize we have a very idealistic view of friendship, we are looking for someone who we can relate with, who understands us and knows us, and we know them. And we’re in this intimate relationship. And we desire that. But a lot of times we make it more than than it can be. In other words, we look at people and think, I want them to be as only God can be to me, I want the it to be this ideal relationship. And so we get really frustrated and disappointed when it doesn’t go like that.

But but the reality is, is and we start with the this idea that God created friendship and demonstrated true friendship with us through Jesus, because that is the ideal friendship, that is the ideal relationship that we can be fully known by God, He knows us and we can know Him. And we can walk in an intimacy with Him, and He is not someone who will disappoint or forsake or, you know, sin against us. And so it’s this, it is the ideal, it is the the idea of Dietrich Bonhoeffer talks about this in his book life together that, that we tend to have wished dreams this way, he calls them about relationships, that our relationship with God is the wish strain that we have unconditional love, and unconditional access to God. And so we have to keep those two in their right perspective that, yes, when we are in right relationship with God, then we can go in invitation of him and pursue others and, and engage others and it’s not going to be perfect. And that’s that has to be a part of our definition of friendship, that there are going to be imperfections to it. But we are secure and safe in our relationship with God. That is the perfect friendship.

Kristen Wetherell
Beautiful. Yeah. And you’ve maybe you could talk just for a moment about because you’ve done this so well, especially in your book for pastors wives, about different levels of friendship, or different types of friendship. Do you want to get into that now? Sure. Yeah,

Christine Hoover
I think, I think that’s also an important thing to consider, that we are going to have, I think if it is it’s kind of concentric circles, that that we are, first and foremost, our relationship with God is at the center, that’s the biggest priority in our life, to cultivate that. But then they’re going to our relationships and our depth of relationships are going to, it’s going to be different according to our, maybe our whatever our relationship or role is with people. And so our goal in relationships is to honor all people that God brings into our life that we engage with. But we’re only going to be friends with a few. And we throw that word around so much. But really, we can only maintain and truly cultivate deep relationships with a few. And the distinction. And this has been really helpful for me as a pastor’s wife. The distinction for friendship is mutuality. So if if there’s not mutuality, that’s okay. That someone I’m going to honor and I’m going to be willing to serve and minister to, but I’m not going to expect much in return. And again, that’s okay. That’s what God calls us to do. But how I know it’s a friendship is when there’s mutuality, of care, of concern of sometimes pushback or feedback that we need to grow as Christians. That’s the distinction that we want to look for.

Kristen Wetherell
Yeah, that is, so I remember reading that and thinking, you just put into words what I have been wondering and and wanting to be put into words, for so long. And I love that term mutuality. That is really helpful. Thank you for that.

Kari Olson
That is gives me some good things to think about, you know, as I have. I have good friendships with, you know, I have sisters. Oh, they’re, they’re like my best friends. And I have friends who’ve been there for a long time high school, college friends. But I live here, and I spend a lot of time here and I minister here. And is it actually possible for the pastor’s wife to have this sort of mutual mutuality and in friendship with women at her church? Is it possible is it wise?

Christine Hoover
I think it’s absolutely possible. I have. I have experienced that and I’m sure you have as well. And you people listening have as well. Yeah, I think it’s absolutely possible. I do think that a friendship pastor’s wife comes with a little more complexities sometimes. And so it might take a little more time for her to develop those kinds of relationships. But I do think it’s possible. And I actually do think it’s wise, because we need to be in community. You know, if you think about any Christian, what we say to them is, you engage your church community, God has designed us and he has prescribed prescribed that for us. Why? For our growth, and our sanctification. Now, as a pastor’s wife, I need that I need growth and sanctification, and I can grow in my relationship individually with God. But there is an aspect of growth that can only happen and community with other people. Now, that doesn’t always mean that it happens in friendship, it happens just by rubbing up against other Christians in our church community. Right, right. But the deep friendship if someone who sees you in your environment, who sees how you’re engaging people, and can provide some times that sanctification, that the blind spots that we have, that they can speak to, we need those people in our lives. So I do think it’s, it’s also it’s not just possible, I think it’s wise for us to engage those types of relationships.

Kari Olson
That’s so good. Do you have? Do you have any counsel in as we are pursuing these relationships in our church? Do you have counsel for us?

Christine Hoover
Absolutely. Because we do want to be wise and how we choose, right? We don’t just choose anyone. And I’m not saying when I say choose, I don’t mean we want to be selective, we want to be exclusive. That’s not what I’m talking about. But I’m talking about choosing and choosing to let people see and know us who people who are trustworthy people, people who are alongside of us seeking a relationship with the Lord who are serving Him who have that same heart, it’s, we’re running a race, but we’re running side by side with people who have similar passions and similar heart. Those are the people we’re looking for. And so I think, especially in Proverbs 1113 says it that we want to choose wisely, who we are friends with, because we want trustworthy people. And so I think we look for the mutuality as already talked about who can handle sometimes I think, oh, this might be a someone who could be a friend and I maybe spend some more time with them. And I’m starting to share a little bit more with them about who I am as a person, maybe what I’m struggling with, and I sometimes see the deer in the headlights look like oh my oh my goodness, my pastor’s wife is telling me this. I don’t know what to do. And that’s okay. But I think that’s a clue, like, okay, that’s okay. But that’s not probably not going to be a deep friendship, because she has to be able to see me as a person, as a Christian who needs that kind of friendship, right? So we’re looking for that. But the mutuality is to me is the greatest key that can they ask, Do they ask me questions about my walk with the Lord? Do they ask me? What do you need prayer for? How can I pray for you? Those kinds of things? I’m looking, I’m looking for that trustworthy. mutuality.

Kristen Wetherell
Excellent, that’s so harmful. And we have we rub shoulders with, as you mentioned, so many people at the church and we want to love them all. As you said, we want to honor them well in the Lord. And so it can cause us sometimes to feel kind of spread, then relationally. Yes. And I appreciated this phrase that you have used in your book for pastors wives, you’ve used the phrase, choking on the abundance. And I read that and laughed out loud. My husband was sitting across from me, I remember this, I laughed out loud. He was like, What’s so funny? And so I told him, and I said, that is just the perfect phrase, because that is how I feel about it. Sometimes. I don’t always know how to best navigate that, you know, like, there are so many good things happening. And not just people but good things happening, right opportunities, events, could be whatever. But it can feel like we’re choking on the abundance. So what is the difference between choking on the abundance and how you’ve said stewarding the abundance are different? Can you talk to us about that?

Christine Hoover
Yes. Well, the first thing I would say is the word abundance. Let’s focus on that for a second because that means we have many good things in our lives. We have many wonderful people in our lives. We are married, if we’re a pastor’s wife, we may have children, we may have work. I mean, we have a plateful of good things. So that’s a good thing to have the abundance but it also means that We have to be very intentional about what we’re going to say yes to and what we’re going to say no to. And that’s what I really mean by stewarding the abundance, we cannot do all the things, we cannot do what we really want to do, which is to meet with every single woman who asks us to do so. We want to meet every need that we see, we want to serve and all the wonderful ministries in the church, we cannot do all of those things. And so we have to be intentional about prioritizing what God has prioritized for us. And love since we can look at our roles to know what that is, if we’re married. Our marriage, that’s, that’s priority. Well, first disciple disciple of Christ, that’s number one priority marriage if we have children, and so all of those things are gonna get the bulk of our time. And then after that, it’s it’s making disciples, and of course, our children, our first disciples, but making disciples. So if I’m just doing one off coffee with a bunch of people, I’m really not going deep. And I’m really not able to, to cultivate a relationship to where we’re, there’s actual disciple making that’s happening. And so I’m gonna have to say no to things. And I don’t like to say no. And I realized this, I was choking on abundance when I wrote that I was choking on abundance, because it was unwilling to say, No, I did not want to disappoint people. And so there has to be in some ways, this willingness to say, I know I’m going to disappoint someone. And that’s okay. And I’m going to be and I’m going to say no, and I’m going to feel awkward. And I’m going to feel the, that feeling of having disappointed someone. And it’s, and I’m just going to have to sit with it. Because I know that’s not what God has asked me to prioritize. That’s really hard to do. But it’s so important for us to do so to be intentional about those things.

Kari Olson
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, that’s, that’s really helpful. You know, when I think of ministry, and relationships, and I just love the verse and First Thessalonians, two, eight, it says, we were ready to share with you not only the gospel of God, but also our own selves, because you had become very dear to us. And so that that is, you know, acknowledging the abundance, like, Oh, we’re just, we’re doing this ministry, but we’re also wanting to share our own selves with you. So I, I want to do that. I want to do that in my friendships. Sometimes I can’t get it out of my head, though, that this woman, her my husband is her pastor. Yeah. My husband’s her pastor. So I’d like, you know, I try to be careful. But I want to be authentic and honest, in relationship as well. So my simple question here, in sharing ourselves with people who have become very dear to us, how much sharing is too much? Is there boundaries there? What do I need to be aware of?

Christine Hoover
I think there are boundaries, okay. And I do, I think there are boundaries, because we want to honor the Lord. And we want to honor her husband. And sometimes that means keeping her mouth shut. But I refer a lot to the book by Andy Crouch called strong and weak, he has a chapter in there that really helped me with this. And he talks about that every leader has what he calls hidden vulnerabilities, meaning there are things that we experience and navigate that no one knows, unless they are in leadership. I mean, we could all we all know, because we’re pastors wives what those things are. And so sometimes there are things that we have told that we can’t share with other people, even close friends. And that helped me a lot that he named that. Because what he says is that it’s not that people in your church don’t care. It’s, it’s just that they’re not the people to hold it, and I’m paraphrasing it. But he’s saying, you know, if the pastor got up and just opened up his heart about all of his struggles and all of his needs, they might praise his vulnerability, but it’s uncomfortable for the congregation because they don’t have access to help him with it. And so the same is true for us. We want to choose people to share with who can actually they have access to help, or they can handle what we’re saying we’re not putting them in an inappropriate or uncomfortable situation. So that helps me to go back. There’s just some things so we don’t even have to say examples. Pastors wives, you just know what they are, right? Just if there’s a critical person, someone causing division, you can’t go tell your friends in the church that that’s happening. But I do think that we can share. I think a lot of times pastors wives, we use this as an excuse, and we don’t share enough. I think we err on because we we really want to do it well, that’s our heart, we may err too much on not sharing anything, I do think we can share with our trusted friends that have proven trustworthy, that we could say, general things, not details. But hey, there’s just been some things going on lately that have been really hard for me to absorb. I am concerned for my husband, or I am a lot from time focus on myself, just, I am feeling kind of stressed. And a good friend is not going to ask why or who’s doing what or who said, what, they’re not going to ask the details. And so we can we can release like an it’s like saying my emotion words, I’m feeling really discouraged. I don’t have to say why. I could say it’s related to church. But I think that that I’ve used that as my kind of the boundary line of I want to share because this is I’m this is what’s going on with me as a person. But I’m going to really is absolutely an affirm rule for me that I’m not going to dishonor my husband, and I’m not going to honor other people with sharing their information.

Kristen Wetherell
Yeah. I’m so glad that you brought up the hidden vulnerabilities concept. That was another part of your book that was hugely helpful to me, and and pinpointed something that I had been feeling that I didn’t have a label for, you know, and so to read that and to say, oh, okay, so there actually is a thing going on here. And that’s what it is that just helped so very much. And I kind of wonder to just in response to what you said, how often not sharing because we’re nervous about oversharing could perpetuate the, the idea that the pastor’s wife has it all together. Right, right. And we don’t like we need Jesus just as much as the next person. though. That’s that’s a wonderful encouragement to take, take a step out, you know, yes, can you do? So I’m thinking back to the scenarios that we shared in the opening of the episode, Christine, what would you say to the ministry wife whose trust has been broken? To the woman who’s, who has a friendship that’s run its course and has not ended? Well, perhaps? Or there’s been a severe falling out something really hard. What would you say to that person?

Christine Hoover
Well, I would say I’m sorry. I know that that happens to everyone at some point. Everyone, not just pastors wives, we all deal with relational difficulties. And so I’m sorry, that’s one of the most painful things that we can experience is relational brokenness. I also would say, what comes to mind is First Peter four, where he says, Beloved, do not be surprised at the trial when it comes upon you, to test you as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice insofar as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed. And going back to that invulnerability part, what always helps me I think of Hebrews 12, where it says, to consider Jesus, well, if there’s anybody who experienced injustice, or hidden vulnerability, it is Jesus Christ. And so he knows he knows what it’s like, he knows what it feels like. And that gives me a lot of comfort. It also gives me a lot of comfort to know when these things happen, that God is always safe. He is a refuge as Scripture speaks of. So he is always safe, you may feel suddenly unsafe in your own church, you may feel does everyone think this is everyone talking about this behind my back? I don’t know you kind of lose your equilibrium when something like that happens, that God is always safe, so run to Him for refuge because you’re going to have to work on a lot of internal unseen things meaning forgiveness. How do I forgive a person who maybe hasn’t even acknowledged that they’ve hurt me that maybe they don’t even know that they’ve hurt me? How that’s gonna take a lot of internal work and so and that’s, that’s more of that hidden vulnerability. No one’s gonna see that. But it’s so important that that we do it we take time and I would even say, if that’s you and it’s fresh, it’s okay to to pull back a little bit and to let the Lord bring healing to work out that forgiveness. That’s going to be Your process, not a one time thing. And so you might need to take a little time for that. But don’t let yourself disengage totally. I think I’ve seen in my own life, there have been times where I have wanted to disengage completely after something like that. And I do not want to reengage, I do not want, I can’t take it, I cannot take another thing. But I love this verse in Proverbs 18 is 18. One says whoever isolates himself seeks his own desire, he breaks out against all sound judgment. Isolation is something that a full an unwise person chooses. So we may pull back for a time and a season for God’s healing. But if we pull back indefinitely, then we are actually choosing something that goes against some judgment, as Proverbs says, so part of that, too, is asking ourselves, what can we learn from this broken relationship? Did I contribute something, most of the time when in this, this is a part of the process? I feel like that comes a little bit later in the process where we can say, Okay, God, show me my part. Do I need to go and say, I’m sorry? Did I do something to contribute? And even if it’s not that we contributed something, what can we learn about ourselves, and how we, like, for example, I know my first response when someone comes to me, face to face with criticism is defensiveness. And I’ve seen that how that’s hindered relationship. And so I’ve, I’ve learned that over time, I choose that I will not be defensive when someone comes to me that I may feel it inside, but I’m not going to respond in defensiveness. So that’s something I’ve learned, right through being willing to ask that question, what am I contributing to it? So that’s what I would say, that’s a lot of different things. But I would also say, you know, what relationships come and go. And, and I think sometimes in in the Christian world, we think there’s something wrong with that, that I have to be good friends with this person forever. Right. And even when I say that, I kind of think, is that right? But I think it’s right. Because God moves us. There’s not as I think that’s part of our wish dream is that we want to get our people together and just hold everyone tight, no one can leave. And no one can move, and no one can leave our church and because we long for that perfect community that only will come in heaven. And so I do think there are times there’s fluctuation, that someone may be used in our life at a certain time, or we may be using their life at a certain time. And then that relationship changes. And if there’s not sin involved, I think that that’s okay, that we don’t have to freak out and try to keep everyone you know, really close by so

Kari Olson
yeah. That’s, that’s so good. And you hit on a couple of things, you know, relationships change, maybe our location changes you, you just moved, you know, but it were if there’s no sin there that you can detect, it’s okay that maybe a relationship changes. And there’s so much to think about there. Christine, thank you for that thoughtful answer. When we find relationships fluctuating, and loneliness settles in, maybe maybe we’re surprised by the loneliness, maybe we expect it because then we’re in a new place, and it takes time to develop friendships. What is our ultimate hope? When loneliness sets in, because we know no human being can fill that that role, you know, in our heart, ultimately that that God is the ideal friendship. But what is our hope when when loneliness sets in?

Christine Hoover
I think there’s a difference between loneliness and isolation. Isolation is something we choose right? Sometimes loneliness is is something that God providentially allows in our lives. I do think I can look at my own life experience and say, God has allowed seasons of loneliness. He has chosen that for me. And the reason why is because it reveals to me where I’m putting my hope that’s not in him. And he’s really he’s kindly do give him the opportunity to see that and to come back to him and to say you are my hope. We all know as Christians that God is our hope. And but we don’t always realize where sometimes we’re drifting away and putting it somewhere else. And I think relationships are one of the most common hopes that we place our hope in. And so when God allows those seasons of loneliness, loneliness, it can be a gift to us, if we will let it to refine us and to to send us back to God to two. It’s a time when I look back at those seasons.

For me, it was a time of great intimacy with the Lord because I knew I was experiencing that He is my only hope. Now, it’s hard. I’m not saying loneliness is like, awesome. I love it. But it’s kind of like it reminds me of Psalm 4211. It says, Why are you downcast? Oh, my soul, put your hope in God, for I will yet praise Him. So you kind of see the psalm is saying, I don’t feel this. And I feel, I know that my hope is in God. But my heart’s not quite caught up with that. But I know I will praise him yet again. He’s like telling his soul Put your hope in God. And I think that’s what loneliness gives gives us the opportunity to do and I think it also teaches us I love the verse in Proverbs 1410, it says, Each heart knows its own bitterness, and no one else can share its joy. And what meaning there’s really only one who can truly understand where we are, whether it’s hard, or it’s good, right? Only God can truly know that. And so loneliness can can really drive us toward a greater understanding of that and experiencing of that.

Kristen Wetherell
That’s really good. Yeah. And it also I think, gives us such an opportunity to just ask our good father for something really good, you know, and just say, like, Lord, I know you’re pressing me into your heart, like you’re pressing me into yourself. And yet, I feel that there’s an opportunity here for a friendship. And so would you bring that person? Yes. He’s been so faithful.

Christine Hoover
Yes, that’s a great point. As for what you asked for this good thing, this is a good thing, a good gift to ask for it. But also, God may say, I will answer that as you go as you seek and pursue other people. Don’t just wait. And like, wait for me to plop something in your lap. I did that for a long time to learn from my mistake. But to be the person that imitation of how Christ is loved us go and serve, go and lay down your life for others. And that’s often where relationships are birthed.

Kristen Wetherell
Yes, yeah. Yeah. Not being not being too proud that you won’t be the initiator again, if that’s again,

Christine Hoover
that’s right. Every pastor’s wife just nodded. Yes. Yeah, he initiating. Yeah.

Kristen Wetherell
So good. Christine, we are so grateful for you, this has been rich in wisdom. Thank you for opening God’s word for us as well. I mean, that that is the truth. That’s his voice speaking to us, and so refreshing to have you do that for us. So thank you for your time. This has been wonderful. And I know that the listeners will benefit from it. Thanks.

Christine Hoover
Thanks for having me.

Kristen Wetherell
Well, that was so refreshing. I loved how much Christine open scripture for us. And that’s what we need the most is, is to hear the voice of God about these questions that we’re asking, right, and these topics that we’re covering, and so I so appreciate that. And I’ll never forget Carrie, you know, hearing hearing Christine talk just now talking about especially the times in our relationships, when we have felt vulnerable, when those hidden vulnerabilities feel very strong. The times when we have been hurt, you know, and we’re not sure who we can trust anymore. And we feel like we’re flailing around. She said, You know, when when you have the Lord, You are safe. By he makes us safe. And to me, that just brings a sigh of relief. I am safe. And I’ll never forget she had shared with me several months back a verse from Psalm five. That applies to that and I’d love to read it for us. It’s verse 11. But Let all who take refuge in You rejoice. Let them ever sing for joy and spread your protection over them. That those who love your name may exalt in you. You have that picture of God being your refuge, right and he is the safe place. He’s spreading his protection over us. And I just think that’s a wonderful, new visual for our pastor’s wife, friends to have just to think about God being that safe place being that shelter. Yeah, my heart is so deeply encouraged by that today.

Kari Olson
Thank you for saying that. And very encouraged by that too. You know, she had said, God is always safe. And then for you to remember different conversation with her I’m I love starting there. As we pursue friendship, I’m really thankful to have that encouragement to start there. This this best friendship that you can have with God, the ideal friend, yeah, through His Son, Jesus Christ, and by the Holy Spirit, you know, he will help us as we pursue that. She mentioned so many wonderful things that I will keep thinking about as I think through my own friendships here in our church. But I hope I hope that our listeners do the same in our to our sisters in the front row seat. God sees you and he knows that you’re asking this question Who can I trust? And you now he has given you that desire for true friendship, and he will lead you with wisdom as you pursue it.